What's the fucking deal with Palestinians?

RolandTD20Kdrummer

wwfairfield wrote:

you want classic jewish revisionist history...

Anne bancroft , ms. robinson from the film the graduate, played golda meir on broadway

man ...

Talk about Kosher!

canadajammer

Byrnzie wrote:

So how does this answer my question as to how the palestinians are in the wrong?




Sure, these countries all have a share of the burden, but the main instigator of the current situation are the Zionists. Zionism is an intrinsically racist ideology, common to all types of ethnic nationalism, including Nazism.

Zionism is intrinsically racist? Please tell me exactly when Judaism became a race? Please never compare Zionism with Nazism. Thats plain disgusting. Nazism believed in a direct pecking order of races, with the 'Aryan' race being at the top.

Zionists believe in a homeland for the Jewish people. The person can be native Israeli, ashkenazi (European descent), Sephardic (Spain/Morocco), African, Asian, Iraqi, or any single nationality/ethnicity atround the world. Judaism is not a race and Zionism is not racist.

20 percent of Israeli citizens are non-Jewish arabs. They also hold seats in the Israeli Parliament.

Now, disagreeing with the way Israel has handled the situation in Gaza and the West Bank is one thing, but to blame it on Zionist Racial ideology is just crazy!

Byrnzie

Colorsblending9 wrote:

Zionism is intrinsically racist? Please tell me exactly when Judaism became a race? Please never compare Zionism with Nazism. Thats plain disgusting. Nazism believed in a direct pecking order of races, with the 'Aryan' race being at the top.

Zionists believe in a homeland for the Jewish people. The person can be native Israeli, ashkenazi (European descent), Sephardic (Spain/Morocco), African, Asian, Iraqi, or any single nationality/ethnicity atround the world. Judaism is not a race and Zionism is not racist.

20 percent of Israeli citizens are non-Jewish arabs. They also hold seats in the Israeli Parliament.

Now, disagreeing with the way Israel has handled the situation in Gaza and the West Bank is one thing, but to blame it on Zionist Racial ideology is just crazy!

In the words of Michael Neumann, author of 'A case against Israel'...

'Zionism has never been a movement for the defence of the Jewish religion.; on the contrary, many of the most religious Jews abhor it. It was never even a movement in defence of some cultural entity; when the Zionist movement began, Jews had no common language and their traditions were in many cases wildly dissimilar or simply abandoned altogether. Zionism was a movement that advocated not so much the defense of an ethnic group, as the formation of such a group in Palestine, where those who were thought to fit a certain semi-racial category were to find refuge. It was a lovely dream where all Jews would live happily together and, with typical Wilsonian obliviousness, no one seemed to notice that those who did not pass ethnic muster had no place in this fantasy. If they were to be tolerated, welcomed, even loved, it was to be at the pleasure of the Jews. Of that there could be no mistake. This is exactly the sort of vulnerable subordination that Jews, quite understandably, were trying to escape. "Trust us, we'll be nice" is not a promise endorsed by the historical record.

Zionists respond with fury when their movement is identified with racism. Many ethnic supremacists do. They protest that they do not advocate their own superiority, but simply want a land or culture of their own. But that is of neccesity a land where one race is guaranteed supremacy: whether or not this is on grounds of intrinsic superiority hardly matters. And that such movements and attitudes gain respectability is not the fault of the Zionists, much less of the Jews, but of an idiotically false tolerance of ethnic nationalism.'

http://www.iht.com/articles/reuters/2008/05/08/africa/OUKWD-UK-ISRAEL-PALESTINIANS-1948-ARABS.php
"Arab citizens ... are related to more as enemies than as citizens with equal rights," the Association for Civil Rights in Israel (ACRI) said in its annual report.

The group said "racist incidents" against Arab citizens rose 26 percent in 2006. It did not have more recent figures. Poverty rates are four times higher among Israeli Arabs in comparison to Israeli Jews, according to Haifa-based advocacy group Mossawa.

Twelve Arab lawmakers including a cabinet member hold seats in Israel's 120-member parliament, but less than 8 percent of the country's civil service workforce is made up of Israeli Palestinians, according to a recent civil service report...

some rights groups, including ACRI, say Israel has also been using the law to cement the state's Jewish character.

Such draft bills, approved by parliament in 2007, include banning Arabs from buying land controlled by the Jewish National Fund, a quasi-governmental group that was founded before the state of Israel to buy and develop land in Palestine and later oversaw land distribution in the Jewish state.

The JNF also controls land owned by Palestinians before they fled or were driven from their homes when Israel was founded.

Another bill makes eligibility for national insurance benefits dependent on completing military service. Few Arabs serve in the army: unlike for Jews, service is not compulsory.

"The Palestinians inside Israel are being discriminated against in all spheres except for one: the right to vote," Mohammad Barakeh, a member of Israeli parliament, said.

Olmert's spokesman Regev said the bills did not reflect racist attitudes against Arabs, rather "legitimate differences of opinions".'


Anti-Arab racism and incitement in Israel
Ali Abunimah, The Electronic Intifada, 30 March 2008
http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article9428.shtml
'...one fifth of Israel's population (not including the Palestinian population of occupied East Jerusalem), they are citizens of the state of Israel and can vote in elections for the Knesset. Despite this, most view themselves as second-class citizens. As indigenous non-Jews in a self-described Jewish state, they face a host of systematic social, legal, economic and educational barriers to equality. Israel lacks a constitution and has no other basic law guaranteeing equal rights to all citizens regardless of religion, race, ethnicity or national origin.

One measure of the cumulative impact of these discriminatory policies is socioeconomic: while just 16 percent of Jewish citizens in Israel fall below the official poverty line, the figure for non-Jews is 50 percent, according to the Israeli Democracy Institute's index.

In October 2000, Israeli police used live ammunition against unarmed civilians demonstrating their solidarity with Palestinians in the occupied territories. Thirteen Palestinians, of whom twelve were Israeli citizens, were shot dead. An official commission, headed by Judge Theodor Or, was appointed to look into the events which came to mark a dramatic deterioration in Arab-Jewish relations inside the country. In 2003, the Or Commission confirmed that the police used "excessive" and unjustifiable force, reported that the police viewed the country's Arab citizens as "enemies" and documented a pattern of "prejudice and neglect" towards them by Israel's establishment.

While the Or Commission recommended a number of measures to redress the sharp disparities between Jews and Arabs in the country, families of the victims regarded the report as a whitewash. The Commission failed to examine the forensic evidence in each of the killings, and none of the killers, nor any responsible official, were ever brought to justice. By 2007, according to Elie Rekhess of the Moshe Dayan Center at Tel Aviv University, there remained "yawning" gaps between Jews and Arabs in Israel and "the bottom line" is "that the conclusions and recommendations of the 2003 Or Commission remain conspicuously unimplemented."

Amidst the increasingly precarious situation of Palestinian citizens of Israel, prominent and broadly representative leaders of that community published in 2007 a series of documents setting out visions for Israel as a state of all its citizens with equality for all. [1] The response of the Israeli body politic was overwhelmingly to view these initiatives as an unwelcome threat to the "Jewish character" of the state. Israel's Shin Bet secret police, responsible among other things for many "targeted killings" in the occupied territories, went so far as to warn that it would "disrupt the activities of any groups that seek to change the Jewish or democratic character of Israel, even if they use democratic means," the Israeli daily Haaretz reported in April 2007.'


Israel world's most racist state
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3248807,00.html
Israeli Arab Knesset members slam results of Israel Democracy Institute's survey showing 62 percent of Israelis want to encourage Arab emigration
Ilan Marciano Published: 05.09.06
'...One person who does see a connection between 'Israel Our Home's success and the survey findings is MK Ahmad Tibi (United Arab List-Ta'al).

"Racism became the main characteristic of Israeli society a long time ago," he said. "Racism and fascism moved from impassioned marketplaces to the Knesset and the government seats. This is mainly expressed in the rise of an Israeli fascist party in the elections."

"There is no doubt that the ongoing occupation, dominating another people, and the confrontation have brought about the rise of racism in Israel. This scary phenomenon must be seriously dealt with by the government through education and with the help of the media," he added.

MK Talab El-Sana (United Arab List-Ta'al) called on Zionism to "conduct a profound self-examination and check where it failed."

He called to appoint an Arab deputy to the president and wondered "how the people that was supposed to serve as a shining example and a light unto the nations turned its country into the most racist state in the universe." '

swallowedwords

Doesn't look like Byrnzie likes Jews much.

All this hatred must give him terrible heartburn.

Byrnzie

swallowedwords wrote:

Doesn't look like Byrnzie likes Jews much.

All this hatred must give him terrible heartburn.

Rather than making stupid, meaningless personal attacks on my character, why don't you try addressing the points I raised above?

Edit: Also, since when did all Jews become Zionists? Perhaps you can answer that?

Byrnzie

From Wikipedia:

'The claim that Zionism is racism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism_and_racism
Both the 1922 League of Nations Palestine Mandate and the 1947 UN Partition Plan supported the creation of a Jewish State in Palestine, but in November 1975, the United Nations General Assembly Resolution 3379 declared that "Zionism is a form of racism and racial discrimination."

In December 1991, the General Assembly rescinded this resolution through Resolution 4686. At the time, the Soviet Union, a major sponsor of the "Zionism is racism" doctrine (see Zionology), had completed its rapid collapse. Israel made revocation of resolution 3379 a condition of its participation in the Madrid Peace Conference.

Finkelstein says Zionism uses racist arguments: 'The injustice inflicted on Palestinians by Zionism was manifest and, except on racist grounds, unanswerable: their right to self-determination, and perhaps even to their homeland, was being denied.'[8] Finkelstein says none of the justifications given by Zionists could withstand even cursory scrutiny. For example he says the 'historical right', based on the Jewish presence in Israel two thousand years ago is 'neither historical, nor based on any accepted notion of right', and is 'not a right except in mystical, romantic nationalist ideologies'.[9] He says the argument that Palestine was 'empty' when the Zionists arrived is ironic, because 'it is a back-handed admission that, had Palestine been inhabited, which it plainly was, the Zionist enterprise was morally indefensible.'[10] He says non-Zionist supporters of Zionism could only come up with a racist justification, 'the fate of Jews was simply more important than that of Arabs'.[11]

According to A.F. Kassim: "Racial discrimination has become 'legally' institutionalised in the state of Israel. The Nationality Law, and particularly, the doctrine of return, gives hard evidence of Israel's discriminatory and racist policies. [... This Law is] an integral part of the Zionist policy consistently pursued ever since the Zionist colonisation processes began in Palestine."'

swallowedwords

Byrnzie wrote:

Rather than making stupid, meaningless personal attacks on my character, why don't you try addressing the points I raised above?

To be honest, I'm really not in the mood. I'm getting pretty sick of arguing about what the Jews did to the Arabs, and what the Arabs have done to the Jews. Personally, I'm thinking about going to 9 Pearl Jam shows in June, which should be amazing.

I hope to run into a few Jewish and Arab/Muslim PJ Fans along the way. We could all get a few bacon cheeseburgers, some cold beers, and discuss what songs we think they'll play.

All I ask is that security be extra careful while checking the Muslim fan. Just kidding!

Byrnzie

Actually, what's of equal interest here are the counter-claims against Zionism being Racist by defenders of Zionism.
I find it interesting that none of these claims holds any water.
So I repeat; Zionism is a racist ideology.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism_and_racism
Arguments of defenders of Zionism

Defenders of Zionism[who?] disagree with the identification of Zionism with racism on a number of grounds:

1.The charge is too vague, as the views of Zionist groups differ widely from each other.[citation needed]
2. Judaism and Jewish Law hold that any person may choose to become a Jew and enjoy all the benefits and responsibilities of membership. Zionism is therefore, by definition, non-racial.[citation needed]
3. Defenders of Zionism also claim that if Arabs and many other ethnic groups have their own states, the Jews deserve their own state as well.[citation needed]
4. Arabs and Jews are related to each other, and both claim mixed ancestry (see The ancestry of the Palestinians, Jewish ethnic divisions). Israeli Jews are racially mixed (nearly half of Israel's Jewish population consists of Arab Jews, and there are about 100,000 black Jews from Ethiopia) as well as large numbers of Jews from India, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Uzbekistan, Morocco and other countries. Many Jews are Arab Jews.[citation needed]
5. Even if the State of Israel discriminates against Arabs, such discrimination is based on political, cultural and/or religious discrimination, rather than race. Further, such discrimination cannot be connected to the Zionist movement, but rather may occur through political processes and dispersed among individuals and small groups that cannot be proven to be the majority view of Zionism[citation needed].
6. The UN has failed to address antisemitism among Arab states and devotes more time to Palestine then to conflicts in Darfur and Congo where millions have been killed.'

Byrnzie

This looks interesting...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/7412088.stm

Heineken Helen

swallowedwords wrote:

Doesn't look like Byrnzie likes Jews much.

All this hatred must give him terrible heartburn.

why don't you answer my question in the Israeli thread please and try and do it without resorting to personal attacks or calling me anti semitic or anti american cos that's just lazy... besides I'm neither... it's just a simple question. Gimme a simple answer that makes sense and I'll leave it alone

Byrnzie

swallowedwords wrote:

To be honest, I'm really not in the mood. I'm getting pretty sick of arguing about what the Jews did to the Arabs, and what the Arabs have done to the Jews.

So you're 'not in the mood' to address the points I raised that relate to this thread you created? O.k.

swallowedwords

Heineken Helen wrote:

why don't you answer my question in the Israeli thread please and try and do it without resorting to personal attacks or calling me anti semitic or anti american cos that's just lazy... besides I'm neither... it's just a simple question. Gimme a simple answer that makes sense and I'll leave it alone

Which question was that?

evenkat

Byrnzie wrote:

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/newsfull.php?newid=10259 .

So since when does aljazeera have an unbiased opinion on this topic?

Show me some unbiased accounts of what started the 6 day war that supports their claim. There are many links to support what I posted.

swallowedwords

Byrnzie wrote:

So you're 'not in the mood' to address the points I raised that relate to this thread you created? O.k.

It's fairly pointless.

spiral out

swallowedwords wrote:

It's fairly pointless.

Why don't address the points or admit you are wrong.

swallowedwords

spiral out wrote:

Why don't address the points or admit you are wrong.

I'm not wrong. Trying to debate someone who uses Al Jazeera as a source, says it all.

Byrnzie

evenkat wrote:

So since when does aljazeera have an unbiased opinion on this topic?

Show me some unbiased accounts of what started the 6 day war that supports their claim. There are many links to support what I posted.

In the link I provided Al Jazeera used direct quotes from Israeli politicians and Generals. Those quotes aren't biased one way or another. They're quotes from those who were directly involved in the outbreak of the 6 day war.

Anyway, again this is all pretty irrelevant. Can you explain why you support the illegal Israeli occupation and Zionist race war against the Palestinians?

evenkat

Byrnzie wrote:

Fair enough. Although you should probably know by now that when It comes to this issue my gloves are off.

Oh believe me I haven't even begun to take my gloves off yet . However I really can't debate against the inhumane treatment of the Palestinians.

Byrnzie

evenkat wrote:

I really can't debate against the inhumane treatment of the Palestinians.

Then why are you trying to defend it?

spiral out

swallowedwords wrote:

I'm not wrong. Trying to debate someone who uses Al Jazeera as a source, says it all.

Hmm, i think you will find all kinds of different sources are used.