Cosmo

dignin

polaris wrote:

canada is not a world leader in anything ..

greenhouse gases

polaris

yield6 wrote:

greenhouse gases

oh right ... i thought we were talking about something positive ...

Cosmo

Saturnal wrote:

There's no such thing as a "a benevolent, caring Super Power". Once you look at how that nation became a superpower in the first place, it's obvious how delusional it is to think that one nation can peacefully "lead the world". History makes that incredibly clear. Every empire falls for the same basic reasons, and none of them ever had a chance to prevent it, because they're all inherently evil.

...
What is said was we should have... and could have become a benevolent, caring Super Power. But, we didn't. We failed to learn from the lessons of other empires and instead of going a different route... we tread upon the same path that lead to... and will lead us to our decline.
And I DO believe we could have lead the world. After the attacks of september 11, 2001... we had an outpouring of empathy. People who thought we were assholes even said, "Man... you didn't deserve that". I believe that with the right leadership, we could have convinced the rest world that this terrorism must end. Gang up the entire world community to end this bullshit. Yeah, it would have been long and difficult... but, aren't ALL tough problems difficult to solve? And by Lead.. I do NOT mean Rule.
The path we had chosen shut down all that. Now... those people that were leaning towards us after September 11 are saying... "Man... you guys ARE assholes. Maybe you DID deserve it".
Like it or not... we are Rome. We are not evil... just arrogant with a sense of self-righteousness and a serious case of narcissism. The people of Rome probably thought they were doing good for the world... road building, running water, leading technology, arts, culture. But, what was the Roman Empire doing in those far away lands? Economic expansion and imperialism with the best interests of Rome at the forefront. Sound familiar?

norm

Cosmo wrote:

Like it or not... we are Rome. We are not evil... just arrogant with a sense of self-righteousness and a serious case of narcissism. The people of Rome probably thought they were doing good for the world... road building, running water, leading technology, arts, culture. But, what was the Roman Empire doing in those far away lands? Economic expansion and imperialism with the best interests of Rome at the forefront. Sound familiar?

that is dead-on correct and will fall on deaf ears....

Cosmo

unsung wrote:

We still are the world's leader. Everytime any disaster hits anywhere we help, no matter where it happens.
Our economic dominance may be at an end though. That started when we stopped building things and shipped jobs elsewhere, we are really hurting from it now.
In the meantime people keep shopping at Wal-Mart to save a buck on some garbage Chinese made t-shirt that falls apart after a few washes. I've said it before that people need to look at EVERYTHING that they buy, down to toothpaste. Sure there are some things that we have no choice but there are choices on almost everything. If you buy something made in a foreign country when there is a perfectly good USA made alternative then you are directly to blame for the problems we are having today. It is your fault.
Personally I willingly pay more for American made goods because I have pride in my country and more importantly myself.
Seriously when will people get it? How many problems have there been with Chinese made goods? Lead paint on toys, bad tires, melamine killing our pets, the list goes on and on. WAKE UP PEOPLE!

...
The problem is... it is too late. As a company... how do you compete with the juggernaut that is the potential of the Chinese Manufacturing machine? You don't. Those manufacturing jobs we had are gone... and they aren't coming back.
We are turning towards a retail and service employed middle class. And with that, more well paid union manufacturing middle class Americans will slide down the pay scale, than rise to the multi-millionaire executive class. There are those very few at the top... more of our middle class sliding down and a few of us clinging on to our middle class jobs. As an example, look at that AIG execs meeting at a California resort that cost $440,000.00. To them... that's just like the business trip you get sent on where you stay at the Marriot and eat at the Outback Steakhouse. To them... this is what they are used to... $440,000.00 is chump change to them... a mere business expense. That is the gap that we see... but, they do not. Our Middle Class is eroding.
The new Global Middle Class is India and China. A couple of Billion strong. When China comes online at her full potential... she will have 2 billion local (Chinese) consumers. Add the Indians (India) and it is almost 40% of the entire world's population. Will she need us any more?

even flow?

I didn't read a bad word about capitalism in Cosmo's rant? I think he may have just forgot to add how that sped up the downfall.

lalalalaaaaaaaa

Cosmo wrote:

...
What is said was we should have... and could have become a benevolent, caring Super Power. But, we didn't. We failed to learn from the lessons of other empires and instead of going a different route... we tread upon the same path that lead to... and will lead us to our decline.
And I DO believe we could have lead the world. After the attacks of september 11, 2001... we had an outpouring of empathy. People who thought we were assholes even said, "Man... you didn't deserve that". I believe that with the right leadership, we could have convinced the rest world that this terrorism must end. Gang up the entire world community to end this bullshit. Yeah, it would have been long and difficult... but, aren't ALL tough problems difficult to solve? And by Lead.. I do NOT mean Rule.
The path we had chosen shut down all that. Now... those people that were leaning towards us after September 11 are saying... "Man... you guys ARE assholes. Maybe you DID deserve it".
Like it or not... we are Rome. We are not evil... just arrogant with a sense of self-righteousness and a serious case of narcissism. The people of Rome probably thought they were doing good for the world... road building, running water, leading technology, arts, culture. But, what was the Roman Empire doing in those far away lands? Economic expansion and imperialism with the best interests of Rome at the forefront. Sound familiar?

Superpowers become superpowers through evil deeds....invasions, economic strangling, etc. etc. They don't become superpowers by being nice and trying to "lead" the world. I still think it's delusional to think otherwise. The US is no different, and its evil started well before September 11th.

Cosmo

Saturnal wrote:

Superpowers become superpowers through evil deeds....invasions, economic strangling, etc. etc. They don't become superpowers by being nice and trying to "lead" the world. I still think it's delusional to think otherwise. The US is no different, and its evil started well before September 11th.

...
Regardless of that. The opportunity I see is the reaction... of other countries... after the attacks. Yeah... there were/are some who celebrated the attacks... but, many more that thought were were assholes... but, didn't deserve it.
I believe we could have used that opportunity to band with the others... by setting aside our own personal loss.. and worked towards ending terrorism... or, at least, making it a terrible career choice for people... including their financial backers.
But... like you said... we didn't. I feel we lost that once in a lifetime opportunity because we chose the evil way through the door of anger, hatred and vengence.

RolandTD20Kdrummer

Saturnal wrote:

Superpowers become superpowers through evil deeds....invasions, economic strangling, etc. etc. They don't become superpowers by being nice and trying to "lead" the world. I still think it's delusional to think otherwise. The US is no different, and its evil started well before September 11th.

no no you're just being paranoid, insecure, and delusional....

it's all just random chance what's going on right now.

The MIC angle is a hoax and overblown. This is what I'm reminded of here all the time.

Trailer

Pj_Gurl wrote:

but here, the rivalry between canada and the US is not at all friendly.

While I know you explained yourself later in the thread.. I just wanted to reiterate that I, nor anyone I know, feels this way. I think Canada is a great country and have always felt the same amount of love and respect back from them. I don't know about Planet Hoth:p.. but the Canada/US rivalry is definitely friendly over here in California.

lalalalaaaaaaaa

Cosmo wrote:

I believe we could have used that opportunity to band with the others... by setting aside our own personal loss.. and worked towards ending terrorism

I know, that's the delusional part.

It was already way too late in 2001. After all the crap the US pulled in the Middle East in the for the past 40+ years, the crap it pulled in Central America, and so on...there was plenty of hatred out there for the US before it invaded Iraq in 2003. The only difference between now and 2001 is that the hatred has spread to a good chunk of the 1st World...the people you and I interact with. So now we hear about it. Before then, we didn't hear about it because it was all coming from people in 3rd World countries...and hardly anyone in the 1st World cares what those people say or think or feel.

The world is way too complicated to think of it in the way you describe. It's not a simple matter of banding together to "end terrorism". Terrorism to you doesn't mean the same thing as it does to someone halfway across the world. Nor does "peace" or "freedom" or any of these ridiculous terms people try to apply to a global scale. The world just doesn't work like that. It's too chaotic and complex for some overall solution to things like violence (or "terrorism" if you like).

Just my opinion, as always

rebornFixer

Cosmo is wise indeed, and is one of the people on here I respect most.

I will not just conclude, flat-out, that he is 100% right on this particular point though. In fact, my personal belief is that China, should it ever truly attain superpower status, would make the Bush administration look positively wise and benevolent. I think China's tenure as a superpower will be about on par with the Soviet Union's ... It won't last either.

rebornFixer

Cosmo wrote:

...
What is said was we should have... and could have become a benevolent, caring Super Power. But, we didn't. We failed to learn from the lessons of other empires and instead of going a different route... we tread upon the same path that lead to... and will lead us to our decline.
And I DO believe we could have lead the world. After the attacks of september 11, 2001... we had an outpouring of empathy. People who thought we were assholes even said, "Man... you didn't deserve that". I believe that with the right leadership, we could have convinced the rest world that this terrorism must end. Gang up the entire world community to end this bullshit. Yeah, it would have been long and difficult... but, aren't ALL tough problems difficult to solve? And by Lead.. I do NOT mean Rule.
The path we had chosen shut down all that. Now... those people that were leaning towards us after September 11 are saying... "Man... you guys ARE assholes. Maybe you DID deserve it".
Like it or not... we are Rome. We are not evil... just arrogant with a sense of self-righteousness and a serious case of narcissism. The people of Rome probably thought they were doing good for the world... road building, running water, leading technology, arts, culture. But, what was the Roman Empire doing in those far away lands? Economic expansion and imperialism with the best interests of Rome at the forefront. Sound familiar?

I dunno, dude ... The same people that were cheering in the streets right after 9-11 are the same people cheering now. If I worry about the US losing friends, its worry about folks in Europe ... Our (our meaning North Americans) ostensible allies.

Lizard

Cosmo's cool.

I met him once--sure he doesn't remember though!!

Vince

I'm not ready to throw the towel in just yet.

sponger

We can't just stop corporations from outsourcing jobs from overseas. It isn't that simple.

In these times, we are competing against countries like China, who pay their citizens peanuts and still produce at a frightening capacity.

US corporations simply cannot compete in a global economy with US wages being as high as they are. That's why when new manufacturing industry is created in the US, it actually acts as a restraint on the economy.

The costs that go into running a manufacturing operation in the US are not adquately covered by the profits from exporting.

That's why Japanese auto manufacturers with plants in the US do not pay pensions and retirement medical to its US employees. Those factories would simply not be profitable. The wages that those factory employees are receiving are already the highest in the world.

That's why when you hear Obama talk about keeping jobs in the US, what you're hearing is him banking on the probability that you as a voter do not understand the economics of our times. People who do understand know that what he is talking about is virtually impossible.

stuckinline

unsung wrote:

In the meantime people keep shopping at Wal-Mart to save a buck on some garbage Chinese made t-shirt that falls apart after a few washes. I've said it before that people need to look at EVERYTHING that they buy, down to toothpaste. Sure there are some things that we have no choice but there are choices on almost everything. If you buy something made in a foreign country when there is a perfectly good USA made alternative then you are directly to blame for the problems we are having today. It is your fault.

Personally I willingly pay more for American made goods because I have pride in my country and more importantly myself.


Seriously when will people get it? How many problems have there been with Chinese made goods? Lead paint on toys, bad tires, melamine killing our pets, the list goes on and on. WAKE UP PEOPLE!

i agree with you!

Commy

sponger wrote:

We can't just stop corporations from outsourcing jobs from overseas. It isn't that simple.

In these times, we are competing against countries like China, who pay their citizens peanuts and still produce at a frightening capacity.

US corporations simply cannot compete in a global economy with US wages being as high as they are. That's why when new manufacturing industry is created in the US, it actually acts as a restraint on the economy.

The costs that go into running a manufacturing operation in the US are not adquately covered by the profits from exporting.

That's why Japanese auto manufacturers with plants in the US do not pay pensions and retirement medical to its US employees. Those factories would simply not be profitable. The wages that those factory employees are receiving are already the highest in the world.

That's why when you hear Obama talk about keeping jobs in the US, what you're hearing is him banking on the probability that you as a voter do not understand the economics of our times. People who do understand know that what he is talking about is virtually impossible.

This is why institutions like the IMF and WB need to be dismantled. They are creating the very environment that allow-encourage US companies to outsource. IF Zimbabwe has no environmental restraints and its workers are plentiful and cheap with no unions and the country has no export tarrifs, naturally US manufacturers are going to set up shop there. that's been the case the last few decades, on a much larger scale. I think the number of countries affected by the IMF and WB is over 200 now.
But its all part of the plan. US policy planners at the end of WWII, when they emerged as the world leader, decided to creat a world economic system where US companies could dominate. The citizens of the US had no part in this global scheme, and still don't. Companies will produce where its cheapest and sell where its the most expensive. Capitalism hard at work. And the people of the United States aren't part of that equation, obviously, given todays current economic environment.

And I don't think policy shifts are going to be enough. We need fundamental change in the way society operates, and that may take a revolution.

sponger

Commy wrote:

IF Zimbabwe has no environmental restraints and its workers are plentiful and cheap with no unions and the country has no export tarrifs, naturally US manufacturers are going to set up shop there. that's been the case the last few decades, on a much larger scale. I think the number of countries affected by the IMF and WB is over 200 now.
But its all part of the plan. US policy planners at the end of WWII, when they emerged as the world leader, decided to creat a world economic system where US companies could dominate. The citizens of the US had no part in this global scheme, and still don't. Companies will produce where its cheapest and sell where its the most expensive. Capitalism hard at work. And the people of the United States aren't part of that equation, obviously, given todays current economic environment.

And I don't think policy shifts are going to be enough. We need fundamental change in the way society operates, and that may take a revolution.

It's not simply a matter of outsourcing to where it would be cheaper. It's a matter of staying in business. All of these little third would countries that were once agrarian societies began producing with their own industry and contributing goods to the world market.

This puts US companies in a position to have to remain competitive on an export level, and that's why those jobs were being exported.

You're right that those countries need to raise their labor standards, but you act as though it's because of the US that they haven't.

Cosmo

reborncareerist wrote:

Cosmo is wise indeed, and is one of the people on here I respect most.

I will not just conclude, flat-out, that he is 100% right on this particular point though. In fact, my personal belief is that China, should it ever truly attain superpower status, would make the Bush administration look positively wise and benevolent. I think China's tenure as a superpower will be about on par with the Soviet Union's ... It won't last either.

...
Thanx... I know that we don't see eye to eye on some issues, but you have always made you points based upon facts, rather than emotions. I respect you and your opinions, regardless of their opposition to mine.
And I agree with you on China. I never said China was going to be a good thing. But, she is rising to become an industrial giant... with a population that, by numbers, can probably have sustained economic growth for the next 30 or 40 years. A (Maoist) Communist country that has grasped onto capitalism.
I hope... HOPE... that as China grows and gets her machinery 100% online, she will take the lessons taught be Western Industry and not pollute. But, i have a feeling she is more likely to follow our example down the polluting/waste trail.
The thing that wealth will change in China... that closed society where the government controls things. That can end up being good... or bad... depending on how much of a fight that either side is willing put up.