So now that Iran has clearly violated International Law...

Rue D'Awakening

Rockin'InCanada wrote:

I seriously do not believe Iran would bomb Israel...I think those that believe this are themselves fear mongering...the Iranian leader is more than intelligent enough to know he would be bombed to hell

must be very easy for you to pass me off as a fear-monger when you don't address any of the quotes i provided earlier that fly in the face of your logic.

goldstar

what to say, what to say?

it might seem odd, coming from me and where i live and all,
but, perhaps, just perhaps, their efforts actually are targeted at civil nuclear energy?
i mean - just a thought.
(a wishful one)

nothing said - what a waste.

angelica

farfromglorified wrote:

You can't "resolve" a problem when you can't even agree on a) that there is a problem and b) the definition of that problem and, most importantly c) that our respective definitions of the "problem" require contradictory solutions.

Oh, and I'm guessing you agree that it is very integral part of effective problem-solving seeking to understand and define what the actual problem is, rather than going on guesswork, fear, assumptions, and other criteria that is really about us and not about the realistic problem. Recognizing the problem IS half-way to solving it.

even flow?

jlew24asu wrote:

so in other words its ok for Iran to act like an asshole

Oh look.........Chicago, Ill, USA. Must be hard to come up with that statement and actually mean it or say it without smirking. Odd how when you live in a country you just seem to overlook the feet you have and are stepping on around the world. But knock all the others all you want.

farfromglorified

angelica wrote:

You can sure act fair, decent and above board when the problem is yet to be understood or defined.

Of course!

And you can acknowledge that when there is room for huge doubt and uncertainty, more clarity is required before giving one's self permission to even consider taking steps based on any kind of very possibly false premise.

Completely agreed.

In the bully/annoying kid analogy, reborncareerist was asking whether it's bullying when the other person is not a victim, essentially but rather is contributing to the problem.

I would agree with reborncareerist's assessment there, vis a vis this issue.

My point is when we give ourselves permission to look at someone through the lens where we are the victim, and therefore even consider giving ourselves permission to bully based on a false impression we have of ourselves, we're clearly justifying the unjustifiable.

Agreed. That's why I don't like the idea of us taking steps to "solve" a problem that isn't really a problem. And that's why I reject Iran's status of either a victim or an honest broker of peace.

RockinInCanada

Rue D'Awakening wrote:

must be very easy for you to pass me off as a fear-monger when you don't address any of the quotes i provided earlier that fly in the face of your logic.

Pfft....whatever show me the complete dialogue of the Iranian president saying he was going "blow Israel off the map"...I want to see the entire speech not just a snippet of half a sentece....plus what quote...where did you get the quote you posted...do you want me to type up quotes and throw them in your face like some arrogant ass and ask you to reconsider your logic...

I have no time for someone as pompous as you....to add-in still think you are fear mongering....

goldstar

Rockin'InCanada wrote:

Pfft....whatever show me the complete dialogue of the Iranian president saying he was going "blow Israel off the map"...I want to see the entire speech not just a snippet of half a sentece....plus what quote...where did you get the quote you posted...do you want me to type up quotes and throw them in your face like some arrogant ass and ask you to reconsider your logic...

I have no time for someone as pompous as you....to add-in still think you are fear mongering....

hmmm...

even flow?

Rue D'Awakening wrote:

Israel's nuclear arsenal has been the Middle East's worst kept secret for decades; yet it hasn't provoked an Arab nuclear arms race--unlike the Iranian nuclear program. The reason is that the Arab world knew that we wouldn't use the bomb unless we ourselves faced imminent destruction. The Sunnis appear to be no less "paranoid" about a nuclear Iran than the Jews.

How can you ignore the statement by former Iranian President Hashemi Rafsanjani that it is "not irrational" to contemplate a nuclear war that would destroy Israel but would only damage the Muslim world? Or the statement by Ahmadinejad to Kofi Annan that a third world war is coming and Iran is going to win it?
or "We do not worship Iran, we worship Allah. For patriotism is another name for paganism. I say let this land [Iran] burn. I say let this land go up in smoke, provided Islam emerges triumphant in the rest of the world. "
-Khomenei

To put things into how I see them. I take everything with a grain of salt. I don't believe that Jews are the chosen people and need to have their own land. As they believe they were told to wander and still don't have a beef with the person that told them to do it. But have a beef with everybody else about it. Everybody including the boogie man wants the Jew.

I don't believe that anybody would be so stupid as to actually nuke Israel. No matter what drugs you think they are on or how obsessed with relgion you think they are. There is obviously some kind of friction that must go back to a time before North America came to exist that the two factions have had a hard on of hate for each other. If two arabs in Iraq can't get their act together. Toss in an entirely different relgion from another arab neighbour and I am not surprised that you all can't get your shit together over there.

Or to put it like the people on here from the US. The whole middle east could be bombed to bits to wipe out one, if not the main problem in the world today and I wouldn't even bat an eye, except to smile that all the trouble is now gone up in smoke.

Abuskedti

Last Exodus wrote:

They dont need money. They have all that oil. They aren't starving. We freed them from the burden of Sadaam. Whats the problem here? They should be thanking us. Instead they are killing our soldiers and menacing the world with threats and nukes. The answer is simple, they are making their power play in the gulf for hegemony. Hegomony for Iran would be bad............

Like......

Technology.. respect... perhaps a voice in the reconstruction of Iraq.... there are thousands of things we could share with each others resultiing from our different cultures and differnt geographic locations...

and most of all - they'd like it if we didn't threaten to bomb the shit out of them..

Last Exodus

goldstar wrote:

what to say, what to say?

it might seem odd, coming from me and where i live and all,
but, perhaps, just perhaps, their efforts actually are targeted at civil nuclear energy?
i mean - just a thought.
(a wishful one)

nothing said - what a waste.

Well Ahmadinijad sponsored the anti-holocaust seminar and threatened to wipe Israel off the map. He didn't threaten to wipe the US off the map. And he didn't have a conference attended by digruntled American Indians, so I think we can discern who he intends to use those weapons against. Sharon had a plan on the books to take out the Iranian facility before he lapsed into Coma. He said as much. So it looks like the threat is clear.

Another thought that keeps coming to mind is that Ahmadinijad was trying to bait Israel. I mean, to actually put together an anti-Holocaust conference while threatening Israel? His conduct was so outrageous it almost felt like he was trying to bail Israel into a first strike. I think your govenment recognized this and thats why Israel has not taken action and Iran now finds itself with two US Carriers parked off its coast instead. (The Stennis arrived yesterday).

angelica

Rue D'Awakening wrote:

How can you ignore the statement by former Iranian President Hashemi Rafsanjani that it is "not irrational" to contemplate a nuclear war that would destroy Israel but would only damage the Muslim world? Or the statement by Ahmadinejad to Kofi Annan that a third world war is coming and Iran is going to win it?
or "We do not worship Iran, we worship Allah. For patriotism is another name for paganism. I say let this land [Iran] burn. I say let this land go up in smoke, provided Islam emerges triumphant in the rest of the world. "
-Khomenei

I will love to address your quotes. People can and do say crazy irrational things all the time. This is clearly different than a call for self-defense with imminent danger. Any action based on these threats would make any aggressor clearly...the aggressor and accountable.

When we allow our fear and paranoia fill in the blanks between the facts, we became the evil characters on the world stage. These fine lines mark the difference between being the bad guy and being reasonable and level headed. Menacing comments can be fully taken into consideration with a level head and reasoned focus. And will show based on how we respond--with fear mongering or with a level head.

Last Exodus

even flow? wrote:

To put things into how I see them. I take everything with a grain of salt. I don't believe that Jews are the chosen people and need to have their own land. As they believe they were told to wander and still don't have a beef with the person that told them to do it. But have a beef with everybody else about it. Everybody including the boogie man wants the Jew.

I don't believe that anybody would be so stupid as to actually nuke Israel. No matter what drugs you think they are on or how obsessed with relgion you think they are. There is obviously some kind of friction that must go back to a time before North America came to exist that the two factions have had a hard on of hate for each other. If two arabs in Iraq can't get their act together. Toss in an entirely different relgion from another arab neighbour and I am not surprised that you all can't get your shit together over there.

Or to put it like the people on here from the US. The whole middle east could be bombed to bits to wipe out one, if not the main problem in the world today and I wouldn't even bat an eye, except to smile that all the trouble is now gone up in smoke.

huh?

Rue D'Awakening

Rockin'InCanada wrote:

Pfft....whatever show me the complete dialogue of the Iranian president saying he was going "blow Israel off the map"...I want to see the entire speech not just a snippet of half a sentece....plus what quote...where did you get the quote you posted...do you want me to type up quotes and throw them in your face like some arrogant ass and ask you to reconsider your logic...

I have no time for someone as pompous as you....to add-in still think you are fear mongering....

if you think i fabricated those quotes, say so. otherwise i don't know what that post of yours was other than a temper-tantrum and a waste of anyone's time who read it.
also note- of those quotes, i didn't include the played-out "israel should be wiped off the map" one.

Rue D'Awakening

Last Exodus wrote:

huh?

evenflow?'s grammar and coherency always suffers when he thinks he's being edgy.

Last Exodus

Abuskedti wrote:

Like......

Technology.. respect... perhaps a voice in the reconstruction of Iraq.... there are thousands of things we could share with each others resultiing from our different cultures and differnt geographic locations...

and most of all - they'd like it if we didn't threaten to bomb the shit out of them..

Why in the world does Iran deserve a voice in the reconstruction of Iraq?

Last Exodus

Rue D'Awakening wrote:

evenflow?'s grammar and coherency always suffers when he thinks he's being edgy.

I couldnt discern a single cogent thought in that whole paragraph...That was abuse of keyboard

Rue D'Awakening

angelica wrote:

I will love to address your quotes. People can and do say crazy irrational things all the time. This is clearly different than a call for self-defense with imminent danger. Any action based on these threats would make any aggressor clearly...the aggressor and accountable.

When we allow our fear and paranoia fill in the blanks between the facts, we became the evil characters on the world stage. These fine lines mark the difference between being the bad guy and being reasonable and level headed. Menacing comments can be fully taken into consideration with a level head and reasoned focus. And will show based on how we respond--with fear mongering or with a level head.

so winston churchill in the 1930's was fear-mongering?
there was no shortage of people in the 20's and 30's who reacted to mein kampf the same way people on these boards react to the words of Iran's leaders. they have learned nothing from history.

goldstar

Last Exodus wrote:

Well Ahmadinijad sponsored the anti-holocaust seminar and threatened to wipe Israel off the map. He didn't threaten to wipe the US off the map. And he didn't have a conference attended by digruntled American Indians, so I think we can discern who he intends to use those weapons against. Sharon had a plan on the books to take out the Iranian facility before he lapsed into Coma. He said as much. So it looks like the threat is clear.

Another thought that keeps coming to mind is that Ahmadinijad was trying to bait Israel. I mean, to actually put together an anti-Holocaust conference while threatening Israel? His conduct was so outrageous it almost felt like he was trying to bail Israel into a first strike. I think your govenment recognized this and thats why Israel has not taken action and Iran now finds itself with two US Carriers parked off its coast instead. (The Stennis arrived yesterday).

true - iran's president has done and said quite a bit of stuff that could have provoked israel into doing something dreadfully foolish.
however - 2 things in my (naive?) mind:
1. iran (and the vast majority of the islamic world) sees israel as a threat, and conciders every israeli move an aggressive one, just as israel preceives the islamic world. therefor, iran's president (after hearing and reading his name so many times - i still don't know how to spell it. then again - the same goes for dave a's last name, and he's the best PJ drummer ever...), from his point of view, would justifiably consider his provoking acts as reaction to something israel has done. that's the problem with political conflicts - everyone seems to be right, yet everyone is actually wrong.
2. i really do hope it's just for nuclear energy, because - well - the other option is too much for me to consider.

inmytree

Last Exodus wrote:

Is the United States going to continue to be the bad guy here? All diplomatic means are being used, and the Iranians continue to be belligerent. When Saddaam flouted the UN at least we gave him no fly zones and sanctions that really hurt. Well see what the UN does this time...My guess...NADA.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/02/21/iran.nuclear/index.html

ok....what do you want to do about it...?

Rue D'Awakening

goldstar wrote:

true - iran's president has done and said quite a bit of stuff that could have provoked israel into doing something dreadfully foolish.
however - 2 things in my (naive?) mind:
1. iran (and the vast majority of the islamic world) sees israel as a threat, and conciders every israeli move an aggressive one, just as israel preceives the islamic world. therefor, iran's president (after hearing and reading his name so many times - i still don't know how to spell it. then again - the same goes for dave a's last name, and he's the best PJ drummer ever...), from his point of view, would justifiably consider his provoking acts as reaction to something israel has done. that's the problem with political conflicts - everyone seems to be right, yet everyone is actually wrong.
2. i really do hope it's just for nuclear energy, because - well - the other option is too much for me to consider.

it doesn't make sense for it to just be for civilian energy consumption. iran has the world's largest reserve of natural gas. they could get by on natural gas for several centuries before running out. nuclear power is more expensive, worse for the environment, and more dangerous, given the risk of a meltdown. they want the bomb.