i'm pretty sure you're breaking the doctrine there dude. if something should happen to her, under RC dogma she goes to hell!
of course, if the church is wrong about that... isn't it possible they got a few other things wrong too?
Actually Roman Catholics preach that an unbaptised child does not go to hell, they go to purgatory. It used to be that the child went to limbo but I guess that was a little to harsh so they changed it to purgatory. I guess God phoned the Pope and told him to change the rules.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
I wouldn't consider myself staunch by any means but I will say this:
There is a HUGE difference between and unborn child being killed and a murderer/ rapist/ etc, who made a choice to commit a crime that warranted the death penalty.
Yes there is a huge difference. The criminal has a consciousness and a will to live. The fetus doesn't.
One had a choice, one didn't.....how can they be the same?
Neither had a choice. One used to have a choice and it was taken away by man against his/her will. For the other, God/nature has not yet given it a free will or the ability to make a choice.
2. This past December, there was a guy here in town who didn't want his girlfriend to have an abortion so he fire-bombed the clinic. The clinic was a total loss, but all the patients still got their abortions. This kind of "direct action" doesn't stop anything.
It appears to me that this is what the OP is insinuating should be happening?
I only got this far in the thread so far... but i hope he/she has clarified... because it sounds to me that he/she is suggesting more radical action by the pro lifers is what is needed.
I don't know that this board is the place to come and suggest force and violence against women... or anyone...
Sure....you and I were once there...do we have a consciousness now? So when did we get it?
Well that's that million dollar question. But I don't think it appeared immediately upon the joining of the sperm and the egg, or its implantation in the uterus. Do you?
Well that's that million dollar question. But I don't think it appeared immediately upon the joining of the sperm and the egg, or its implantation in the uterus. Do you?
I find it funny how bush, mccain etc.. Can be pro life and pro war.
It is not that difficult to figure out the difference between the two positions. Unless you have a simple mind, a rational person could make an argument for both at the same time.
It either shows that we're cowards or we don't really believe the unborn child is a human being worth defending.
Why don't people in the US who are against the Iraq war go over to Iraq and kill US soldiers? If they don't then they don't think the Iraq war is so bad to defend the Iraqis.
Then wouldn't they act to stop abortion more directly? In the '80s, numerous protest groups blocked the entrances to abortion clinics for instance. Even more extreme behavior has been done by others, which I do not necessarily approve of.
I've always wondered about this question, as a strongly pro-life voter.
If you saw someone who was about to be killed, and you could stop it, would you?
If you didn't, would you consider yourself a coward?
Instead of acting right then to stop the murder, would you simply vote against that behavior? Maybe down the road it will be stopped, while the killing continues...
So many pro-lifers claim to view the unborn child as a human being, just like you and I. But they don't treat it like a human being, because if they did, there'd be more people doing direct action to stop abortion.
I look at the left wing scum protesting for fairy tales and tiddlywinks at the RNC, and I think of how much more important stopping abortion is. And yet we don't do nearly as much as the anarchist nincompoops. It either shows that we're cowards or we don't really believe the unborn child is a human being worth defending.
...
Sounds like YOUR call to arms... or you could continue to just sit there and remain a coward.
...
And if you buy ammonia-nitrate from various sources... over longer periods of time... DHS won't catch on.
Onward! Christian Soldier!
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
...
Sounds like YOUR call to arms... or you could continue to just sit there and remain a coward.
...
And if you buy ammonia-nitrate from various sources... over longer periods of time... DHC won't catch on.
Onward! Christian Soldier!
I'm not saying people that blow up clinics are heroes.
We're just a different people today than we were in 1776. People fought and died over taxation without representation back then.
Just because most pro-lifers are cowards (in a technical sense) doesn't mean that you suddenly become less of a coward because you're pro-choice.
Pro-choice people represent the problem...which needs to be solved.
All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
-Enoch Powell
I'm not saying people that blow up clinics are heroes.
We're just a different people today than we were in 1776. People fought and died over taxation without representation back then.
Just because most pro-lifers are cowards (in a technical sense) doesn't mean that you suddenly become less of a coward because you're pro-choice.
Pro-choice people represent the problem...which needs to be solved.
...
No. Choice is a problem to you... not to me.
Those of us on the Pro-Choice side are NOT Pro-Abortion. Abortion just happens to be a LEGAL option to choose from. Most of us Pro-Choice types hopes that the woman CHOOSES not to go the Abortion route... but, we allow her (with or without guidence from HER family, friends, etc...) to make that decision... not me... and certainly not the government.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
...
No. Choice is a problem to you... not to me.
Those of us on the Pro-Choice side are NOT Pro-Abortion. Abortion just happens to be a LEGAL option to choose from. Most of us Pro-Choice types hopes that the woman CHOOSES not to go the Abortion route... but, we allow her (with or without guidence from HER family, friends, etc...) to make that decision... not me... and certainly not the government.
Yeah when it comes to clinic bombings I'm pro-choice - that's a CHOICE that the bomber must make between himself and HIS family, friends etc. It's not my place to make that decision, and the government certainly doesn't have the right to tell him what to do - after all, he's defending innocent life right?
Talk up whatever crap comes out of Planned Parenthood that you want. Everyone's got reasons for what they do, and some are more righteous than others.
All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
-Enoch Powell
Yeah when it comes to clinic bombings I'm pro-choice - that's a CHOICE that the bomber must make between himself and HIS family, friends etc. It's not my place to make that decision, and the government certainly doesn't have the right to tell him what to do - after all, he's defending innocent life right?
Talk up whatever crap comes out of Planned Parenthood that you want. Everyone's got reasons for what they do, and some are more righteous than others.
...
Huh?
Comparing a Clinic Bomber.. to a pregnant woman? Really?
...
I think the greatest difference... amongst the myriad of differences... is... Bombing is NOT a Legal option. Get the Legislature to make bombing legal... then, yes... you arguement has a point. Until then, then YES the government (Law and Order) have complete authority to keep him from bombing.
...
I'm surprized I had to explain that to... anyone.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
...
Huh?
Comparing a Clinic Bomber.. to a pregnant woman? Really?
...
I think the greatest difference... amongst the myriad of differences... is... Bombing is NOT a Legal option. Get the Legislature to make bombing legal... then, yes... you arguement has a point. Until then, then YES the government (Law and Order) have complete authority to keep him from bombing.
...
I'm surprized I had to explain that to... anyone.
I had no idea that if the government says something is acceptable, it suddenly becomes acceptable.
Morality changes with the whim of government ey? Spoken like a true leftist haha
The legislature cannot create statutes that oppose the natural law - it would be impossible for the legislature to make a law legalizing murder.
And that is why we must not recognize the legality of abortion, and we are entitled to do anything that falls within the natural law in order to stop abortion.
Get it? You win a "surprize"
All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
-Enoch Powell
I had no idea that if the government says something is acceptable, it suddenly becomes acceptable.
Morality changes with the whim of government ey? Spoken like a true leftist haha
The legislature cannot create statutes that oppose the natural law - it would be impossible for the legislature to make a law legalizing murder.
And that is why we must not recognize the legality of abortion, and we are entitled to do anything that falls within the natural law in order to stop abortion.
Get it? You win a "surprize"
...
You STILL don't get it... do you?
Bombing... is not acceptable. It is UNacceptable... so there are laws that say, "You Can't Blow Up People or Things". Cops enforce them and courts try them.
Who... or WHAT... 'create statutes that oppose the natural law'? Did I miss the 'Gravity shall not hold us down' law, or something?
...
And there is NOTHING on the books that says, 'Abortion is legal'... if there is... then, please... point it out to me. Show me the 'thou Shalt Abort' law that government has us follow.
The reality is... there are no laws stating that abortion is ILLEGAL. Huge difference. Like there is no law on the books that says it is illegal to wear sunglasses indoors. Doesn't mean you have to wear sunglasses indoors (unless you are one of those dufus hipster wannabes that wear sunglasses indoors). You should choose to NOT wear sunglasses indoors.
Roe v. Wade didn't make Abortion 'legal'... it took abortion off of the books.
...
And again... You are obsessed with abortion. I'm not. I'm not a fan of abortion and hopes that the woman would choose adoption, parenthood or... my first choice... making the decision and acting upon them to AVOID getting pregnant in the first place. But, that is NOT my call to make for her. It isn't your call either.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Yeah when it comes to clinic bombings I'm pro-choice - that's a CHOICE that the bomber must make between himself and HIS family, friends etc. It's not my place to make that decision, and the government certainly doesn't have the right to tell him what to do - after all, he's defending innocent life right?
Talk up whatever crap comes out of Planned Parenthood that you want. Everyone's got reasons for what they do, and some are more righteous than others.
Shouldn't you be on some sort of list? I mean, if the Feds don't have tabs on you they probably should because you are clearly off you rocker.
Hey Feds....if you are watching, check this nut out because he's likely to do something crazy for a stupid cause! Take 'em down!
I had no idea that if the government says something is acceptable, it suddenly becomes acceptable.
Morality changes with the whim of government ey? Spoken like a true leftist haha
The legislature cannot create statutes that oppose the natural law - it would be impossible for the legislature to make a law legalizing murder.
And that is why we must not recognize the legality of abortion, and we are entitled to do anything that falls within the natural law in order to stop abortion.
Get it? You win a "surprize"
what you so dearly wish away is a principal of modern states.
yes, the government/constitution/laws says what is right or wrong, not god!
the principle you advocate comes from the middle ages.
you better organize some support to found a theist state (and throw out everyone who doesn't believe what you believe - or maybe bomb them - I can tell that you would feel a lot better in a state like that)
Godwin's Law:
"As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
Then wouldn't they act to stop abortion more directly? In the '80s, numerous protest groups blocked the entrances to abortion clinics for instance. Even more extreme behavior has been done by others, which I do not necessarily approve of.
I've always wondered about this question, as a strongly pro-life voter.
If you saw someone who was about to be killed, and you could stop it, would you?
If you didn't, would you consider yourself a coward?
Instead of acting right then to stop the murder, would you simply vote against that behavior? Maybe down the road it will be stopped, while the killing continues...
So many pro-lifers claim to view the unborn child as a human being, just like you and I. But they don't treat it like a human being, because if they did, there'd be more people doing direct action to stop abortion.
I look at the left wing scum protesting for fairy tales and tiddlywinks at the RNC, and I think of how much more important stopping abortion is. And yet we don't do nearly as much as the anarchist nincompoops. It either shows that we're cowards or we don't really believe the unborn child is a human being worth defending.
The real quesiton is why pro-lifers generally are against teaching use of prevention as well. If their concern was the killed babies, they should spend lavishly on sex education and use of condoms etc. tirelessly in school. If that was their real concern.
Peace
Dan
"YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
Comments
Well, I thought I had heard the stupidest argument for abortion before, but you've trumped that a million times over.
you clearly weren't raised catholic
Hahaha...actually I was.
Oh, and my child has not been baptized...as she is completely innocent.
i'm pretty sure you're breaking the doctrine there dude. if something should happen to her, under RC dogma she goes to hell!
of course, if the church is wrong about that... isn't it possible they got a few other things wrong too?
One had a choice, one didn't.....how can they be the same?
Actually Roman Catholics preach that an unbaptised child does not go to hell, they go to purgatory. It used to be that the child went to limbo but I guess that was a little to harsh so they changed it to purgatory. I guess God phoned the Pope and told him to change the rules.
Yes there is a huge difference. The criminal has a consciousness and a will to live. The fetus doesn't.
Prove it.
Neither had a choice. One used to have a choice and it was taken away by man against his/her will. For the other, God/nature has not yet given it a free will or the ability to make a choice.
That a fetus doesn't have a consciousness? Can you prove that it does?
Nope, neither of us can...that's my point.
Do you even have any reason to suspect that is has a consciousness?
It appears to me that this is what the OP is insinuating should be happening?
I only got this far in the thread so far... but i hope he/she has clarified... because it sounds to me that he/she is suggesting more radical action by the pro lifers is what is needed.
I don't know that this board is the place to come and suggest force and violence against women... or anyone...
Sure....you and I were once there...do we have a consciousness now? So when did we get it?
Well that's that million dollar question. But I don't think it appeared immediately upon the joining of the sperm and the egg, or its implantation in the uterus. Do you?
I don't know.
But how can we have a consciousness before we have a functioning central nervous system?
It is not that difficult to figure out the difference between the two positions. Unless you have a simple mind, a rational person could make an argument for both at the same time.
Why don't people in the US who are against the Iraq war go over to Iraq and kill US soldiers? If they don't then they don't think the Iraq war is so bad to defend the Iraqis.
Sounds like YOUR call to arms... or you could continue to just sit there and remain a coward.
...
And if you buy ammonia-nitrate from various sources... over longer periods of time... DHS won't catch on.
Onward! Christian Soldier!
Hail, Hail!!!
I'm not saying people that blow up clinics are heroes.
We're just a different people today than we were in 1776. People fought and died over taxation without representation back then.
Just because most pro-lifers are cowards (in a technical sense) doesn't mean that you suddenly become less of a coward because you're pro-choice.
Pro-choice people represent the problem...which needs to be solved.
-Enoch Powell
No. Choice is a problem to you... not to me.
Those of us on the Pro-Choice side are NOT Pro-Abortion. Abortion just happens to be a LEGAL option to choose from. Most of us Pro-Choice types hopes that the woman CHOOSES not to go the Abortion route... but, we allow her (with or without guidence from HER family, friends, etc...) to make that decision... not me... and certainly not the government.
Hail, Hail!!!
Yeah when it comes to clinic bombings I'm pro-choice - that's a CHOICE that the bomber must make between himself and HIS family, friends etc. It's not my place to make that decision, and the government certainly doesn't have the right to tell him what to do - after all, he's defending innocent life right?
Talk up whatever crap comes out of Planned Parenthood that you want. Everyone's got reasons for what they do, and some are more righteous than others.
-Enoch Powell
Huh?
Comparing a Clinic Bomber.. to a pregnant woman? Really?
...
I think the greatest difference... amongst the myriad of differences... is... Bombing is NOT a Legal option. Get the Legislature to make bombing legal... then, yes... you arguement has a point. Until then, then YES the government (Law and Order) have complete authority to keep him from bombing.
...
I'm surprized I had to explain that to... anyone.
Hail, Hail!!!
I had no idea that if the government says something is acceptable, it suddenly becomes acceptable.
Morality changes with the whim of government ey? Spoken like a true leftist haha
The legislature cannot create statutes that oppose the natural law - it would be impossible for the legislature to make a law legalizing murder.
And that is why we must not recognize the legality of abortion, and we are entitled to do anything that falls within the natural law in order to stop abortion.
Get it? You win a "surprize"
-Enoch Powell
You STILL don't get it... do you?
Bombing... is not acceptable. It is UNacceptable... so there are laws that say, "You Can't Blow Up People or Things". Cops enforce them and courts try them.
Who... or WHAT... 'create statutes that oppose the natural law'? Did I miss the 'Gravity shall not hold us down' law, or something?
...
And there is NOTHING on the books that says, 'Abortion is legal'... if there is... then, please... point it out to me. Show me the 'thou Shalt Abort' law that government has us follow.
The reality is... there are no laws stating that abortion is ILLEGAL. Huge difference. Like there is no law on the books that says it is illegal to wear sunglasses indoors. Doesn't mean you have to wear sunglasses indoors (unless you are one of those dufus hipster wannabes that wear sunglasses indoors). You should choose to NOT wear sunglasses indoors.
Roe v. Wade didn't make Abortion 'legal'... it took abortion off of the books.
...
And again... You are obsessed with abortion. I'm not. I'm not a fan of abortion and hopes that the woman would choose adoption, parenthood or... my first choice... making the decision and acting upon them to AVOID getting pregnant in the first place. But, that is NOT my call to make for her. It isn't your call either.
Hail, Hail!!!
Shouldn't you be on some sort of list? I mean, if the Feds don't have tabs on you they probably should because you are clearly off you rocker.
Hey Feds....if you are watching, check this nut out because he's likely to do something crazy for a stupid cause! Take 'em down!
ever hear of the electric chair? lethal injection?
what you so dearly wish away is a principal of modern states.
yes, the government/constitution/laws says what is right or wrong, not god!
the principle you advocate comes from the middle ages.
you better organize some support to found a theist state (and throw out everyone who doesn't believe what you believe - or maybe bomb them - I can tell that you would feel a lot better in a state like that)
"As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
The real quesiton is why pro-lifers generally are against teaching use of prevention as well. If their concern was the killed babies, they should spend lavishly on sex education and use of condoms etc. tirelessly in school. If that was their real concern.
Peace
Dan
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965