Still, I think the citizenry should be free to do what they want on public land, which is where we disagree. Your "gay cocks" example would probably be illegal since it is obscene...
My point is obscenity is in the eye of the beholder. If I were to put a huge phallus in front of a public museum as a form of art, many would find it obscene yet some could appreciate it as art. So if a depiction of the ten commandments were to be installed in a public building many would object to it but some would find it appropriate. My point is neither should be on public property. If a private museum wants to exhibit the phallus, great. And there are churches everywhere that can have as many religious symbols that they want.
You assume that, were he alive today, he would still hold 18th century views. I think that's unlikely. He was progressive for his time, my guess is that he would be progressive in our time too.
This was my first thought. A homophobe in the 18th century. Imagine that!!
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
While our Founding Fathers may have had a brilliant idea when creating a democracy not all of their beliefs and ideals where top notch. First of all there is slavery. Next you have the fact that only land owners where allowed to vote, non-land owners, woman, and and non-white males where not allowed to parake in the election of government officials. All of these injustices have since been rectified so just because Jefferson thought that homosexuals should castrated doesn't mean he was right or that it was one of his brighter ideas.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
Haha, Thomas Jefferson was a progressive for HIS time so of course he would be a progressive for our time!!!!
Bullshit.
He was a rationalist, foremost. Progressive policies have no place in reality. They never work in the real world. Social security is falling flat on its face for a reason: social welfare is inefficient and wasteful. Affirmative action isn't helping blacks for a reason: there's no substitute for hard work. Entitlements won't work because they can only grow which results in excessive spending.
Thomas Jefferson was a rational thinker. He knew that homosexuality was foolishness and that it hurts civilizations. That's why he opposed it.
You all dismiss his beliefs as though he was an insane man: he had rational reasons for believing that homosexuals should be castrated, just as he had rational reasons for believing the Jesus Christ did not perform any miracles!
You cannot simply pick and choose which parts of Jefferson that you like and which you didn't. He was a founder of this country.
All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
-Enoch Powell
i am not sure what definition of sodomy Jefferson was using...but, in many statutues, sodomy is any act other than vaginal penetration, whether it is anal, oral, ear, or nostril...so, it would not just be leveled against the gay community...
the fact of the matter is that jefferson is dead...you cannot solve the problems of today by looking at yesterday. it's a different time.
Thomas Jefferson, author of the Declaration of Independence, drafted a bill concerning the criminal laws of Virginia in which he directed that the penalty for sodomy should be castration. See Thomas Jefferson, The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, Andrew A. Lipscomb, ed. (Washington, Thomas Jefferson Memorial Association, 1904) Vol. I, pp.226-27, from Jefferson's "For Proportioning Crimes and Punishments."
So by that logic we should all be against non-land owning, non white, non males having the right to vote.
If you believe so strongly in his "separation of church and state" doctrine, then you need to equally assess his other beliefs. I'm not saying that you need to adopt his beliefs or leave them in their entirety. I'm saying, on one hand he supported "separation of church and state" (although to a very limited degree) and on the other hand he owned slaves and wanted to castrate homosexuals.
To give it a more extreme analogy, it's like supporting Hitler by saying, "But his opposition to alcoholism was legendary!"
Consider the whole individual before you claim that he would be on your side.
All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
-Enoch Powell
If you believe so strongly in his "separation of church and state" doctrine, then you need to equally assess his other beliefs. I'm not saying that you need to adopt his beliefs or leave them in their entirety. I'm saying, on one hand he supported "separation of church and state" (although to a very limited degree) and on the other hand he owned slaves and wanted to castrate homosexuals.
To give it a more extreme analogy, it's like supporting Hitler by saying, "But his opposition to alcoholism was legendary!"
Consider the whole individual before you claim that he would be on your side.
So it is entirely impossible to side with an individual on an issue where his/her ideals are refective of your's but completely disagree with them on another where the ideals are completely different. Do you only see everything in black and white because let me tell you there is a whole spectrum of different shades of grey in the middle that your missing.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
Jefferson would very likely have been homophobic given the time and place in which he lived - but thankfully on the issue of the seperation of church & state he was indeed progressive enough to realise the necessity for secular government.
Again, given the time and place in which he lived I'm sure that as a fallible human being there were many issues on which he failed to escape the commom zeitgeist and expressed opinions that would be morally abhorrent to most of us today.
You don't have to agree with every word he ever said to hold him in high regard for the institutions he put in place and the sum total of what he achieved.
Comments
dude, If the world makes it that far. But yeah, that's something interesting to wonder about.
Obscene? Really? Why obscene?
I think you can disagree with something, but obscene? A bit of a stretch.
Its a drug....
point being?
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
I was responding to this.
My point is obscenity is in the eye of the beholder. If I were to put a huge phallus in front of a public museum as a form of art, many would find it obscene yet some could appreciate it as art. So if a depiction of the ten commandments were to be installed in a public building many would object to it but some would find it appropriate. My point is neither should be on public property. If a private museum wants to exhibit the phallus, great. And there are churches everywhere that can have as many religious symbols that they want.
I hope I made sense.:)
www.myspace.com/jensvad
haha
That's hate speech!!!!1
-Enoch Powell
This was my first thought. A homophobe in the 18th century. Imagine that!!
No, its science. Thats why it puckers. Because it doesn't want to be entered.
www.myspace.com/jensvad
Bullshit.
He was a rationalist, foremost. Progressive policies have no place in reality. They never work in the real world. Social security is falling flat on its face for a reason: social welfare is inefficient and wasteful. Affirmative action isn't helping blacks for a reason: there's no substitute for hard work. Entitlements won't work because they can only grow which results in excessive spending.
Thomas Jefferson was a rational thinker. He knew that homosexuality was foolishness and that it hurts civilizations. That's why he opposed it.
You all dismiss his beliefs as though he was an insane man: he had rational reasons for believing that homosexuals should be castrated, just as he had rational reasons for believing the Jesus Christ did not perform any miracles!
You cannot simply pick and choose which parts of Jefferson that you like and which you didn't. He was a founder of this country.
-Enoch Powell
So by that logic we should all be against non-land owning, non white, non males having the right to vote.
the fact of the matter is that jefferson is dead...you cannot solve the problems of today by looking at yesterday. it's a different time.
from my window to yours
If you believe so strongly in his "separation of church and state" doctrine, then you need to equally assess his other beliefs. I'm not saying that you need to adopt his beliefs or leave them in their entirety. I'm saying, on one hand he supported "separation of church and state" (although to a very limited degree) and on the other hand he owned slaves and wanted to castrate homosexuals.
To give it a more extreme analogy, it's like supporting Hitler by saying, "But his opposition to alcoholism was legendary!"
Consider the whole individual before you claim that he would be on your side.
-Enoch Powell
So my university should abolish its History major?
-Enoch Powell
So it is entirely impossible to side with an individual on an issue where his/her ideals are refective of your's but completely disagree with them on another where the ideals are completely different. Do you only see everything in black and white because let me tell you there is a whole spectrum of different shades of grey in the middle that your missing.
I'm sorry, but all I said was that you should consider the whole man before you make any "progressive" judgments about jefferson.
-Enoch Powell
Jefferson ideals where progressive for their time. And again you resort to immature comments since you can't admit you where wrong.
What school do you attend?
The College of William and Mary
-Enoch Powell
Just as I thought. Welcome back Barroomhero.
What?
-Enoch Powell
What? Did I misspell it. I said welcome back barroomhero.
Pish posh. I have no idea what you are talking about.
-Enoch Powell
Sure you don't.
knew you were wrong so you quit flappin your gums so you could discuss my personal information. That's cool. It makes me feel confident.
-Enoch Powell
Like you countering with that insightfull intelligent come back of calling me a homosexual.
You have only proven how narrowminded your views are and how unaccepting you are of people who don't look, think, or act as you do.
Busted !!
haha, i knew he'd be back someday.
Again, given the time and place in which he lived I'm sure that as a fallible human being there were many issues on which he failed to escape the commom zeitgeist and expressed opinions that would be morally abhorrent to most of us today.
You don't have to agree with every word he ever said to hold him in high regard for the institutions he put in place and the sum total of what he achieved.