Actually, my natural preferred intelligences are first emotional, and second intuitive. My emotional and intuitive intelligences score way higher than average in tests. For the sake of balance and whole-brain/realistic awareness, I have well trained myself in using logic and so called masculine traits as tools. Also, I'm well trained in masculine ways of presenting that, so as to assert the full value of the subject matter. Where I give my true intentions away, is that this masculine energy is always in service of my heart, spirituality, and the Truth beyond my personal sense. Many years ago, I set out to develop these traits to the best of my ability, to honour the spiritual revelations I am naturally open to and see.
My understanding is that even when we are fairly balanced, we do tend to rely on our most basic preferences (as you say stereotypical traits) to find our way. This is considered the healthy way to go, from what I've learned. As I say, as long as we can step outside ourselves. As long as we can suspend judgment and learn from those around us and that are also cells in the human body.
You are quite correct that the roads lead to the same destination, and that none are wrong. Yes, it's very interesting how different nations see things entirely differently.
If you understood that key issue about sexism that I commended you for in the other thread, it looks like your basic preferences aren't too far off from my own.
Ok, so you have added layers of academia and self control on top of what comes natural, thats where you are leaving me behind..:)
I'm sorry to get slightly off track with it all, or maybe it isnt really, it's just that corruption of humanity by unnatural powers is something that i find very interesting, and very necessary. I certainly intend no offence! i know i have made some insensitive jokes lately )
This is the external view. And at the same time, we've all had internal agendas, too, that such external views met for us, which caused us to then internalize the external, giving it life and power. It's a double edged sword. and one that each of us along the way have been an integral part of.
hmm, but we could have made, and still could make a much better world without the corrupting influence!
Ok, so you have added layers of academia and self control on top of what comes natural, thats where you are leaving me behind..:)
I'm sorry to get slightly off track with it all, or maybe it isnt really, it's just that corruption of humanity by unnatural powers is something that i find very interesting, and very necessary. I certainly intend no offence! i know i have made some insensitive jokes lately )
Now work unfortunately!
Enjoy your day!
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
I like the scientific approach, but what it makes me wonder is about how much of it is actually natural? i don't think its evident in small children. And yes we change a lot as we grow, and we become more aware of survival needs which could maybe bring on a natural suspicion of differences. But also i have to wonder about how much of it is passed down through psychological social control, religion maybe? basically divide and conquer. Call it paranoia if you like but i often get stuck on this, and i think its always worth taking into account.
I think it's all "natural." Children are less aware of differences than adults are. Especially very small children. They don't see any difference between themselves and the next person. But, just as soon as they start being able to put things into categories, this "I accept everyone equally" disappears--and at a surprisingly young age. I think of this as an unconscious survival tactic, too. An abandoned child that will accept other human beings no matter how different from mom and dad has a much greater chance of living than one who will only go with people who "look like me." And children's openness is very much valued by adults. Even racist people express feelings of finding other people's children enchanting--even a child from a normally reviled group.
I think you're right in that nurture shouldn't be overlooked. However, I really believe that nature has a primacy that nurture builds upon.
When my father was a young child, I hate to say how long ago...but LONG ago, he lived in an area of the country were everyone was Scandanavian or of Germanic descent. He was about 9 before he saw the first person who was anything other than than white. The person he saw was a Black man. He might have been vaguely aware that Black people existed, but he might not have been aware of it--there were almost no books or magazines available--these were high-priced items, and my dad's family was dirt poor and lived in a fairly isolated area. His first reaction on seeing a Black man, a person he had never been taught to fear, was one of utter fright. It seemed impossible that a human being could look so different from himself. He said that to him, the man seemed almost a caricature of a human. To him, people only had white skin. To see a human with this color of skin was a shock. He hid from the man at a distance. He said he noticed adults in the community either openly stared at the man, or essentially also hurried off to "hide"--less openly than he had done, though.
I would imagine this same experience might very well be mirrored by a Black person in the old days who had never seen anyone white and had maybe never even heard of such a strange possibility.
I guess, what I'm trying to do by relating this experience, is to show that nature is primal, but that nurture will reinforce things. My dad had said that the behavior of the adults around him reinforced that he might be right to be afraid. And all the whites tended to reinforce one another's reactions of fear or suspicion--without ever having said a word.
I would like to say, though, that although nurture continued to teach my father "fear of other," education and experience taught him something 100% different. He lived most of his life traveling around the world, marrying someone out of his religion and out of his culture. And then I came along--a multicultural, multi-ethnic packet if ever there was one--and although I was not his natural child, I am very proud to call myself the daughter of a remarkably broadminded man, who ultimately was not shaped just by nature or nurture, but by reason and deep moral sense.
This is the external view. And at the same time, we've all had internal agendas, too, that such external views met for us, which caused us to then internalize the external, giving it life and power. It's a double edged sword. and one that each of us along the way have been an integral part of.
This is perfect to my mind, i have been all over the place with it, i even wrote a poem a few weeks back when i had this held clear in my mind, then i fell back on almost pure blame for governments and powers, this seems perfect, especially when you take in collins guilt/responsibility thread too,
I think it's all "natural." Children are less aware of differences than adults are. Especially very small children. They don't see any difference between themselves and the next person. But, just as soon as they start being able to put things into categories, this "I accept everyone equally" disappears--and at a surprisingly young age. I think of this as an unconscious survival tactic, too. An abandoned child that will accept other human beings no matter how different from mom and dad has a much greater chance of living than one who will only go with people who "look like me." And children's openness is very much valued by adults. Even racist people express feelings of finding other people's children enchanting--even a child from a normally reviled group.
I think you're right in that nurture shouldn't be overlooked. However, I really believe that nature has a primacy that nurture builds upon.
When my father was a young child, I hate to say how long ago...but LONG ago, he lived in an area of the country were everyone was Scandanavian or of Germanic descent. He was about 9 before he saw the first person who was anything other than than white. The person he saw was a Black man. He might have been vaguely aware that Black people existed, but he might not have been aware of it--there were almost no books or magazines available--these were high-priced items, and my dad's family was dirt poor and lived in a fairly isolated area. His first reaction on seeing a Black man, a person he had never been taught to fear, was one of utter fright. It seemed impossible that a human being could look so different from himself. He said that to him, the man seemed almost a caricature of a human. To him, people only had white skin. To see a human with this color of skin was a shock. He hid from the man at a distance. He said he noticed adults in the community either openly stared at the man, or essentially also hurried off to "hide"--less openly than he had done, though.
I would imagine this same experience might very well be mirrored by a Black person in the old days who had never seen anyone white and had maybe never even heard of such a strange possibility.
I guess, what I'm trying to do by relating this experience, is to show that nature is primal, but that nurture will reinforce things. My dad had said that the behavior of the adults around him reinforced that he might be right to be afraid. And all the whites tended to reinforce one another's reactions of fear or suspicion--without ever having said a word.
I would like to say, though, that although nurture continued to teach my father "fear of other," education and experience taught him something 100% different. He lived most of his life traveling around the world, marrying someone out of his religion and out of his culture. And then I came along--a multicultural, multi-ethnic packet if ever there was one--and although I was not his natural child, I am very proud to call myself the daughter of a remarkably broadminded man, who ultimately was not shaped just by nature or nurture, but by reason and deep moral sense.
This is perfect to my mind, i have been all over the place with it, i even wrote a poem a few weeks back when i had this held clear in my mind, then i fell back on almost pure blame for governments and powers, this seems perfect, especially when you take in collins guilt/responsibility thread too,
Leaves me wide open on this one tho....
in terms of working out my own guilt responsibility.
you sound like you are on exactly the right track, my friend.
To me, the key to much of it comes down to forgiveness. To forgive is to give as we did in the fore (before). It's about seeing things as they really are/were, before we let the ego and thinking get in there with blame and judgment. I have personally found that all the fault and blame I see without, or within, all comes back to a false perception I have upheld. And I let go of these false perceptions in each and every day. And I thrive on it. The more I do it, the more I am attuned to what really is, which is a vibration of pure love and beauty. All sense of "wrong" or flaw is an illusion. The trick for me has been to own the illusions, feel the feelings I have held due to them, and then release into peace.
I fall back into the hypnotic sleep of unempowerment, blame and externalizing things all the time. It gives me opportunity to continue learning in so many interesting ways.
Peace.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
you sound like you are on exactly the right track, my friend.
To me, the key to much of it comes down to forgiveness. To forgive is to give as we did in the fore (before). It's about seeing things as they really are/were, before we let the ego and thinking get in there with blame and judgment. I have personally found that all the fault and blame I see without, or within, all comes back to a false perception I have upheld. And I let go of these false perceptions in each and every day. And I thrive on it. The more I do it, the more I am attuned to what really is, which is a vibration of pure love and beauty. All sense of "wrong" or flaw is an illusion. The trick for me has been to own the illusions, feel the feelings I have held due to them, and then release into peace.
I fall back into the hypnotic sleep of unempowerment, blame and externalizing things all the time. It gives me opportunity to continue learning in so many interesting ways.
Peace.
maybe the best one to relearn is the benefit of making new friends, guess all you need is a good teacher!...:)
speaking of hypnotic sleeps, i havent had more than a couple of hours for a week, so...............
I think it's all "natural." Children are less aware of differences than adults are. Especially very small children. They don't see any difference between themselves and the next person. But, just as soon as they start being able to put things into categories, this "I accept everyone equally" disappears--and at a surprisingly young age. I think of this as an unconscious survival tactic, too. An abandoned child that will accept other human beings no matter how different from mom and dad has a much greater chance of living than one who will only go with people who "look like me." And children's openness is very much valued by adults. Even racist people express feelings of finding other people's children enchanting--even a child from a normally reviled group.
I think you're right in that nurture shouldn't be overlooked. However, I really believe that nature has a primacy that nurture builds upon.
When my father was a young child, I hate to say how long ago...but LONG ago, he lived in an area of the country were everyone was Scandanavian or of Germanic descent. He was about 9 before he saw the first person who was anything other than than white. The person he saw was a Black man. He might have been vaguely aware that Black people existed, but he might not have been aware of it--there were almost no books or magazines available--these were high-priced items, and my dad's family was dirt poor and lived in a fairly isolated area. His first reaction on seeing a Black man, a person he had never been taught to fear, was one of utter fright. It seemed impossible that a human being could look so different from himself. He said that to him, the man seemed almost a caricature of a human. To him, people only had white skin. To see a human with this color of skin was a shock. He hid from the man at a distance. He said he noticed adults in the community either openly stared at the man, or essentially also hurried off to "hide"--less openly than he had done, though.
I would imagine this same experience might very well be mirrored by a Black person in the old days who had never seen anyone white and had maybe never even heard of such a strange possibility.
I guess, what I'm trying to do by relating this experience, is to show that nature is primal, but that nurture will reinforce things. My dad had said that the behavior of the adults around him reinforced that he might be right to be afraid. And all the whites tended to reinforce one another's reactions of fear or suspicion--without ever having said a word.
I would like to say, though, that although nurture continued to teach my father "fear of other," education and experience taught him something 100% different. He lived most of his life traveling around the world, marrying someone out of his religion and out of his culture. And then I came along--a multicultural, multi-ethnic packet if ever there was one--and although I was not his natural child, I am very proud to call myself the daughter of a remarkably broadminded man, who ultimately was not shaped just by nature or nurture, but by reason and deep moral sense.
absolutely, your father was 'disturbed' by the appearance of a Black person if he was uanware of their existence. tis much the same as when we see anything totally unfamiliar to us. just like when some nonwhite people thought the white people they first encountered were ghosts.
we seek comfort in the familiar, its as simple as that. if this fear at the unfamilair is reinforced by negative opinion in the form of what he is told and the actions of those around him, he will absorb this and grow to be prejudicial towards what is unfamiliar to him. it all depends on what is reinforced as being familiar and what is labelled unfamiliar.
it is my opinion that racism is a social construct. a baby comes into this world an innocent. it is taught by those around him how to act and react.
in fact i would go so far as to say that race itself is a social construct.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
it is my opinion that racism is a social construct. a baby comes into this world an innocent. it is taught by those around him how to act and react.
in fact i would go so far as to say that race itself is a social construct.
i totally agree. and we're not alone.
if you wanna be a friend of mine
cross the river to the eastside
absolutely, your father was 'disturbed' by the appearance of a Black person if he was uanware of their existence. tis much the same as when we see anything totally unfamiliar to us. just like when some nonwhite people thought the white people they first encountered were ghosts.
we seek comfort in the familiar, its as simple as that. if this fear at the unfamilair is reinforced by negative opinion in the form of what he is told and the actions of those around him, he will absorb this and grow to be prejudicial towards what is unfamiliar to him. it all depends on what is reinforced as being familiar and what is labelled unfamiliar.
it is my opinion that racism is a social construct. a baby comes into this world an innocent. it is taught by those around him how to act and react.
in fact i would go so far as to say that race itself is a social construct.
But where does the negative opinion start, the first person experiencing this then had a clean slate to work from?
But where does the negative opinion start, the first person experiencing this then had a clean slate to work from?
thats a good question and one im at a loss to answer.
i think, like all highly evolved organisms, we feel the need to survive. how we do this maybe be varied or it may be so similar we overlook it. maybe its an evolution thing. from primate to human we felt the need to assert our dominance over others. is this a survival technique? how do we do this? well as we evolved and got over that murderous impulse and it became 'not the done thing', we needed other ways to deal with those others.
it is a bit like chinese whispers isnt it? you dislike someone because they act recklessly and their presence might get you killed. someone asks someone why you dont like that person and they answer oh cause theyre from tatooine. you are then pigeonholed as someone who doesnt like people from tatooine, not a someone who doesnt like the original person simply because you feel they are a threat to your safety due to their recklessness. then soemone else comes along and asks why that eprson acts so recklessly and they are told oh its a tatooine thing. theyre all reckless and do stupid things. this is a broad generalisation that paints all people from tatooine as reckless and as people who one shouldnt associate because of it. eventually soemone comes abck to you and mentions this and you ahve to correct them and say, no, i dont associate with him because they are reckless, not because they are from tatooine. but still the damage has been done and the prejudice has found purchase.
it could also have started as a simple fear of the unfamiliar.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
thats a good question and one im at a loss to answer.
i think, like all highly evolved organisms, we feel the need to survive. how we do this maybe be varied or it may be so similar we overlook it. maybe its an evolution thing. from primate to human we felt the need to assert our dominance over others. is this a survival technique? how do we do this? well as we evolved and got over that murderous impulse and it became 'not the done thing', we needed other ways to deal with those others.
it is a bit like chinese whispers isnt it? you dislike someone because they act recklessly and their presence might get you killed. someone asks someone why you dont like that person and they answer oh cause theyre from tatooine. you are then pigeonholed as someone who doesnt like people from tatooine, not a someone who doesnt like the original person simply because you feel they are a threat to your safety due to their recklessness. then soemone else comes along and asks why that eprson acts so recklessly and they are told oh its a tatooine thing. theyre all reckless and do stupid things. this is a broad generalisation that paints all people from tatooine as reckless and as people who one shouldnt associate because of it. eventually soemone comes abck to you and mentions this and you ahve to correct them and say, no, i dont associate with him because they are reckless, not because they are from tatooine. but still the damage has been done and the prejudice has found purchase.
Im sorry i was about to edit and say instead of just asking the question i should have asked myself and come up with something to say before posting, but i think this fits into how angelica described it previously,and does support nature as the major cause. Im being lazy, im off to sleep....
Im sorry i was about to edit and say instead of just asking the question i should have asked myself and come up with something to say before posting, but i think this fits into how angelica described it previously,and does support nature as the major cause. Im being lazy, im off to sleep....
no you misunderstand me. i am absolutely in the nurture camp. our instinct to survive should not be used as an excuse for racism. we have these instincts and it is how we put them into play, negativley or postively that determines how we are as beings. needless to say using fear to come to a negative response is not a good thing. and does not add to us as beings. not positively anyway.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
no you misunderstand me. i am absolutely in the nurture camp. our instinct to survive should not be used as an excuse for racism. we have these instincts and it is how we put them into play, negativley or postively that determines how we are as beings. needless to say using fear to come to a negative response is not a good thing. and does not add to us as beings. not positively anyway.
I agree theres no excuses, i just don't think we can essentially blame outside interference for its presence, i believe its our nature we have to overcome, not our nurture..
I agree theres no excuses, i just don't think we can essentially blame outside interference for its presence, i believe its our nature we have to overcome, not our nurture..
either way we should overcome though..:)
well nature may be... i repeat, may be the motivating factor but it is nurture, in my opinion that determines our actions and reactions.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
no you misunderstand me. i am absolutely in the nurture camp. our instinct to survive should not be used as an excuse for racism. we have these instincts and it is how we put them into play, negativley or postively that determines how we are as beings. needless to say using fear to come to a negative response is not a good thing. and does not add to us as beings. not positively anyway.
Sorry let me come back to this, it's my fault for being lazy. I think you are saying that, although it is nature that creates it, its through nurture we can stop the racism occuring?. if so i can totally agree. But in order for that to happen we have to face up to where it comes from, and stop it within us first. I dont think we can blame outside interest for the racism that is inherent within us, other than that the race hasnt learned sufficiently enough to have nurtured us away from it. Not to say that you or i have or have not overcome it personally or through having been taught, just that we as people haven't.
edit:reading your other post as well it all makes more sense to my tired brain.. and i think we are in agreement
edit: actually 2x may be, means we don't totally agree doesnt it..:)
thats a good question and one im at a loss to answer.
i think, like all highly evolved organisms, we feel the need to survive. how we do this maybe be varied or it may be so similar we overlook it. maybe its an evolution thing. from primate to human we felt the need to assert our dominance over others. is this a survival technique? how do we do this? well as we evolved and got over that murderous impulse and it became 'not the done thing', we needed other ways to deal with those others.
it is a bit like chinese whispers isnt it? you dislike someone because they act recklessly and their presence might get you killed. someone asks someone why you dont like that person and they answer oh cause theyre from tatooine. you are then pigeonholed as someone who doesnt like people from tatooine, not a someone who doesnt like the original person simply because you feel they are a threat to your safety due to their recklessness. then soemone else comes along and asks why that eprson acts so recklessly and they are told oh its a tatooine thing. theyre all reckless and do stupid things. this is a broad generalisation that paints all people from tatooine as reckless and as people who one shouldnt associate because of it. eventually soemone comes abck to you and mentions this and you ahve to correct them and say, no, i dont associate with him because they are reckless, not because they are from tatooine. but still the damage has been done and the prejudice has found purchase.
it could also have started as a simple fear of the unfamiliar.
Ok so what it was was that i didnt read this properly or give it due consideration..:o
Sorry let me come back to this, it's my fault for being lazy. I think you are saying that, although it is nature that creates it, its through nurture we can stop the racism occuring?. if so i can totally agree. But in order for that to happen we have to face up to where it comes from, and stop it within us first. I dont think we can blame outside interest for the racism that is inherent within us, other than that the race hasnt learned sufficiently enough to have nurtured us away from it. Not to say that you or i have or have not overcome it personally or through having been taught, just that we as people haven't.
edit:reading your other post as well it all makes more sense to my tired brain.. and i think we are in agreement
edit: actually 2x may be, means we don't totally agree doesnt it..:)
no. i put the responsibility squarely on nurture for both the creation and the prevention. all i attribute to nature is the instinct of survival, not the mode that survival takes.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Nature and nurture are manmade constructs. In reality, they cannot be separated. Which is why we are integrally connected with both...and cannot be separated, but in theory.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
When my father was a young child, I hate to say how long ago...but LONG ago, he lived in an area of the country were everyone was Scandanavian or of Germanic descent. He was about 9 before he saw the first person who was anything other than than white. The person he saw was a Black man. He might have been vaguely aware that Black people existed, but he might not have been aware of it--there were almost no books or magazines available--these were high-priced items, and my dad's family was dirt poor and lived in a fairly isolated area. His first reaction on seeing a Black man, a person he had never been taught to fear, was one of utter fright. It seemed impossible that a human being could look so different from himself. He said that to him, the man seemed almost a caricature of a human. To him, people only had white skin. To see a human with this color of skin was a shock. He hid from the man at a distance. He said he noticed adults in the community either openly stared at the man, or essentially also hurried off to "hide"--less openly than he had done, though.
I would imagine this same experience might very well be mirrored by a Black person in the old days who had never seen anyone white and had maybe never even heard of such a strange possibility.
.
What you describe here with your father isn't racism, however. You describe a child with very little to no social awareness outside of his own group. No knowledge, basically of human difference. If i, even as an adult in 2008, were to happen upon a man with, say, royal purple or bright fuschia colored skin, i would be rather freaked out. To all of my knowledge, such people do not exist. To happen upon such a man would be unsettling to say the least. That isn't racism. Heck, it wouldn't even be wrong, immoral or unethical to have such a reaction. Such a reaction could easily be described as natural. It isn't racism.
Racism is something altogether different and inconsitent with your anecdote regading your dad. You describe your dad as a child, fearful of something that, at the time, was completely alien to him. Your vati, according to your descriptions, did not hate, despise, loathe, or regard as inferior an entire race of people he had any experience with based solely on their difference in hue or slightly different facial features. THAT would have been racism or, at best, racial prejudice. That is not what i'm getting from your story. He was nine and a little weirded out by something he had never seen before, even in pictures, and may not have even known existed. No one can fault him for, or even be surprised by that. It isn't racism.
If racism is natural, then we are fools to even fight it. i don't believe that to be the case.
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
If racism is natural, then we are fools to even fight it. i don't believe that to be the case.
It's natural when it happens. It happens within natural laws and in nature all the time. It cannot occur outside of nature and what is natural. It's also natural to progress.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
It's natural when it happens. It happens within natural laws and in nature all the time. It cannot occur outside of nature and what is natural. It's also natural to progress.
i disagree wholeheartedly with all of this. What natural laws are you referring to. The natural law that says whites naturally hate blacks because of skin color? What is the name of that law because i'm unfamiliar with it?
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
i disagree wholeheartedly with all of this. What natural laws are you referring to. The natural law that says whites naturally hate blacks because of skin color? What is the name of that law because i'm unfamiliar with it?
I'm talking about the laws of nature. Nothing we do is outside of those laws.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
I'm talking about the laws of nature. Nothing we do is outside of those laws.
In all due respect,... poppycock.
It may be natural that we are highly susceptible to influence. It may be natural that we seek to rationalize our, at times deplorable behavior. Its a real stretch to say that racism is completely natural based on natural laws. There is no natural law stating that two beings of different races will natually despise eachother.
In fact. i might argue that racism is completely unnatural. Nothing in nature suggests different races will or should oppose eachother. Therefore racism is in complete violation of the laws of nature. Right?
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
There is no natural law stating that two beings of different races will natually despise eachother.
I didn't come close to saying that.
What I am saying is that human beings are part of nature, and therefore all that we do is natural. It can be deplorable. And still it's as natural as a Tsunami that kills thousands, or as natural as an animal tearing another animal from limb to limb. All within nature is natural.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Comments
Ok, so you have added layers of academia and self control on top of what comes natural, thats where you are leaving me behind..:)
I'm sorry to get slightly off track with it all, or maybe it isnt really, it's just that corruption of humanity by unnatural powers is something that i find very interesting, and very necessary. I certainly intend no offence! i know i have made some insensitive jokes lately
Now work unfortunately!
hmm, but we could have made, and still could make a much better world without the corrupting influence!
Enjoy your day!
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Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
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Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
My night..:)
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
I love the simplicity, but i shall have to think about this one!!
I think it's all "natural." Children are less aware of differences than adults are. Especially very small children. They don't see any difference between themselves and the next person. But, just as soon as they start being able to put things into categories, this "I accept everyone equally" disappears--and at a surprisingly young age. I think of this as an unconscious survival tactic, too. An abandoned child that will accept other human beings no matter how different from mom and dad has a much greater chance of living than one who will only go with people who "look like me." And children's openness is very much valued by adults. Even racist people express feelings of finding other people's children enchanting--even a child from a normally reviled group.
I think you're right in that nurture shouldn't be overlooked. However, I really believe that nature has a primacy that nurture builds upon.
When my father was a young child, I hate to say how long ago...but LONG ago, he lived in an area of the country were everyone was Scandanavian or of Germanic descent. He was about 9 before he saw the first person who was anything other than than white. The person he saw was a Black man. He might have been vaguely aware that Black people existed, but he might not have been aware of it--there were almost no books or magazines available--these were high-priced items, and my dad's family was dirt poor and lived in a fairly isolated area. His first reaction on seeing a Black man, a person he had never been taught to fear, was one of utter fright. It seemed impossible that a human being could look so different from himself. He said that to him, the man seemed almost a caricature of a human. To him, people only had white skin. To see a human with this color of skin was a shock. He hid from the man at a distance. He said he noticed adults in the community either openly stared at the man, or essentially also hurried off to "hide"--less openly than he had done, though.
I would imagine this same experience might very well be mirrored by a Black person in the old days who had never seen anyone white and had maybe never even heard of such a strange possibility.
I guess, what I'm trying to do by relating this experience, is to show that nature is primal, but that nurture will reinforce things. My dad had said that the behavior of the adults around him reinforced that he might be right to be afraid. And all the whites tended to reinforce one another's reactions of fear or suspicion--without ever having said a word.
I would like to say, though, that although nurture continued to teach my father "fear of other," education and experience taught him something 100% different. He lived most of his life traveling around the world, marrying someone out of his religion and out of his culture. And then I came along--a multicultural, multi-ethnic packet if ever there was one--and although I was not his natural child, I am very proud to call myself the daughter of a remarkably broadminded man, who ultimately was not shaped just by nature or nurture, but by reason and deep moral sense.
This is perfect to my mind, i have been all over the place with it, i even wrote a poem a few weeks back when i had this held clear in my mind, then i fell back on almost pure blame for governments and powers, this seems perfect, especially when you take in collins guilt/responsibility thread too,
Leaves me wide open on this one tho....
in terms of working out my own guilt responsibility.
Excellent stuff, thank you!!
I feel i have a LONG way to go myself.
To me, the key to much of it comes down to forgiveness. To forgive is to give as we did in the fore (before). It's about seeing things as they really are/were, before we let the ego and thinking get in there with blame and judgment. I have personally found that all the fault and blame I see without, or within, all comes back to a false perception I have upheld. And I let go of these false perceptions in each and every day. And I thrive on it. The more I do it, the more I am attuned to what really is, which is a vibration of pure love and beauty. All sense of "wrong" or flaw is an illusion. The trick for me has been to own the illusions, feel the feelings I have held due to them, and then release into peace.
I fall back into the hypnotic sleep of unempowerment, blame and externalizing things all the time. It gives me opportunity to continue learning in so many interesting ways.
Peace.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
maybe the best one to relearn is the benefit of making new friends, guess all you need is a good teacher!...:)
speaking of hypnotic sleeps, i havent had more than a couple of hours for a week, so...............
Peas AND carrots
absolutely, your father was 'disturbed' by the appearance of a Black person if he was uanware of their existence. tis much the same as when we see anything totally unfamiliar to us. just like when some nonwhite people thought the white people they first encountered were ghosts.
we seek comfort in the familiar, its as simple as that. if this fear at the unfamilair is reinforced by negative opinion in the form of what he is told and the actions of those around him, he will absorb this and grow to be prejudicial towards what is unfamiliar to him. it all depends on what is reinforced as being familiar and what is labelled unfamiliar.
it is my opinion that racism is a social construct. a baby comes into this world an innocent. it is taught by those around him how to act and react.
in fact i would go so far as to say that race itself is a social construct.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
i totally agree. and we're not alone.
cross the river to the eastside
But where does the negative opinion start, the first person experiencing this then had a clean slate to work from?
thats a good question and one im at a loss to answer.
i think, like all highly evolved organisms, we feel the need to survive. how we do this maybe be varied or it may be so similar we overlook it. maybe its an evolution thing. from primate to human we felt the need to assert our dominance over others. is this a survival technique? how do we do this? well as we evolved and got over that murderous impulse and it became 'not the done thing', we needed other ways to deal with those others.
it is a bit like chinese whispers isnt it? you dislike someone because they act recklessly and their presence might get you killed. someone asks someone why you dont like that person and they answer oh cause theyre from tatooine. you are then pigeonholed as someone who doesnt like people from tatooine, not a someone who doesnt like the original person simply because you feel they are a threat to your safety due to their recklessness. then soemone else comes along and asks why that eprson acts so recklessly and they are told oh its a tatooine thing. theyre all reckless and do stupid things. this is a broad generalisation that paints all people from tatooine as reckless and as people who one shouldnt associate because of it. eventually soemone comes abck to you and mentions this and you ahve to correct them and say, no, i dont associate with him because they are reckless, not because they are from tatooine. but still the damage has been done and the prejudice has found purchase.
it could also have started as a simple fear of the unfamiliar.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Im sorry i was about to edit and say instead of just asking the question i should have asked myself and come up with something to say before posting, but i think this fits into how angelica described it previously,and does support nature as the major cause. Im being lazy, im off to sleep....
no you misunderstand me. i am absolutely in the nurture camp. our instinct to survive should not be used as an excuse for racism. we have these instincts and it is how we put them into play, negativley or postively that determines how we are as beings. needless to say using fear to come to a negative response is not a good thing. and does not add to us as beings. not positively anyway.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
I agree theres no excuses, i just don't think we can essentially blame outside interference for its presence, i believe its our nature we have to overcome, not our nurture..
either way we should overcome though..:)
well nature may be... i repeat, may be the motivating factor but it is nurture, in my opinion that determines our actions and reactions.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Sorry let me come back to this, it's my fault for being lazy. I think you are saying that, although it is nature that creates it, its through nurture we can stop the racism occuring?. if so i can totally agree. But in order for that to happen we have to face up to where it comes from, and stop it within us first. I dont think we can blame outside interest for the racism that is inherent within us, other than that the race hasnt learned sufficiently enough to have nurtured us away from it. Not to say that you or i have or have not overcome it personally or through having been taught, just that we as people haven't.
edit:reading your other post as well it all makes more sense to my tired brain.. and i think we are in agreement
edit: actually 2x may be, means we don't totally agree doesnt it..:)
Ok so what it was was that i didnt read this properly or give it due consideration..:o
no. i put the responsibility squarely on nurture for both the creation and the prevention. all i attribute to nature is the instinct of survival, not the mode that survival takes.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
What you describe here with your father isn't racism, however. You describe a child with very little to no social awareness outside of his own group. No knowledge, basically of human difference. If i, even as an adult in 2008, were to happen upon a man with, say, royal purple or bright fuschia colored skin, i would be rather freaked out. To all of my knowledge, such people do not exist. To happen upon such a man would be unsettling to say the least. That isn't racism. Heck, it wouldn't even be wrong, immoral or unethical to have such a reaction. Such a reaction could easily be described as natural. It isn't racism.
Racism is something altogether different and inconsitent with your anecdote regading your dad. You describe your dad as a child, fearful of something that, at the time, was completely alien to him. Your vati, according to your descriptions, did not hate, despise, loathe, or regard as inferior an entire race of people he had any experience with based solely on their difference in hue or slightly different facial features. THAT would have been racism or, at best, racial prejudice. That is not what i'm getting from your story. He was nine and a little weirded out by something he had never seen before, even in pictures, and may not have even known existed. No one can fault him for, or even be surprised by that. It isn't racism.
If racism is natural, then we are fools to even fight it. i don't believe that to be the case.
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i disagree wholeheartedly with all of this. What natural laws are you referring to. The natural law that says whites naturally hate blacks because of skin color? What is the name of that law because i'm unfamiliar with it?
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In all due respect,... poppycock.
It may be natural that we are highly susceptible to influence. It may be natural that we seek to rationalize our, at times deplorable behavior. Its a real stretch to say that racism is completely natural based on natural laws. There is no natural law stating that two beings of different races will natually despise eachother.
In fact. i might argue that racism is completely unnatural. Nothing in nature suggests different races will or should oppose eachother. Therefore racism is in complete violation of the laws of nature. Right?
I didn't come close to saying that.
What I am saying is that human beings are part of nature, and therefore all that we do is natural. It can be deplorable. And still it's as natural as a Tsunami that kills thousands, or as natural as an animal tearing another animal from limb to limb. All within nature is natural.
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Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!