Name one absolute provable testable 'fact' that CT'ers have brought to light that was otherwise unkown.
Name one.
Go ask Alex Jones....he'll party hardy with ya...
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
The main reason the left is 'driving nails into their own coffins' is #1. They (the dems) don't stand up for their own ideals. They try to cater to people who aren't going to vote for them anyways thus alienating any chance of getting independents or true liberals to take them seriously. They stand for nothing pretty much because they try to have their cake and eat it too. #2. They promote freedom of religion and work to keep it out of law making and public affairs. This angers the Christian majority in this country and opens the door for the right to paint them as 'godless liberals with no morals'. That is infact changing thankfully because everyone can see that war and greed are actually godless and taking prayer out of the classroom isn't such a big deal compared losing your son or daughter in a needless war or having your job hauled overseas.
1) that reasoning is WHY the dems keep losing elections: the self-defeating thought that it is impossible for liberal ideas to be accepted in the mainstream. it shows how out of touch you are with real america and it's why they keep losing. the idea that dems must give up on trying to reach middle american voters and run a ralph nader campaign is ridiculous. if the dems ran on a hard left ticket, they'd never win another election again. ever. america is conservative for the most part. the dems have to stand as a centrist party or become irrelevant. every hard left candidate that has ever run in the modern era has gotten slaughtered in the general election. but you present moderately liberal ideas to america without this "dubya is satan and personally blew up those towers!" nonsense and you can win.
2) this is true. the christian right at the moment has a huge and powerful political influence. though im not sure it's waning just yet. that remains to be seen.
9/11 was the catalyst to war...the eye for an eye concept. If anything the 9/11 CT'ers have opened eyes to the obvious Bush nightmare and endless clusterfucks. It's the CT'ers digging for the truth and actually finding it under each new rock that is turned over. Thank god for that...someone's gotta do it
bullshit. what has turned people against this war is seeing the death toll rise in iraq. they don't give a flying fuck about who you think blew up the wtc. 9/11 is forgotten aside from being a huge tragedy. it has been cheapened and demeaned by the bush admin at every point and completely eclipsed by the war in iraq. the 9/11 conspiracy theories havent changed anyone's minds, what changed their minds was the death toll and the growing suspicion that wmd's never existed in iraq.
1) that reasoning is WHY the dems keep losing elections: the self-defeating thought that it is impossible for liberal ideas to be accepted in the mainstream. it shows how out of touch you are with real america and it's why they keep losing. the idea that dems must give up on trying to reach middle american voters and run a ralph nader campaign is ridiculous. if the dems ran on a hard left ticket, they'd never win another election again. ever. america is conservative for the most part. the dems have to stand as a centrist party or become irrelevant. every hard left candidate that has ever run in the modern era has gotten slaughtered in the general election. but you present moderately liberal ideas to america without this "dubya is satan and personally blew up those towers!" nonsense and you can win.
The left is not the right and it can't keep trying to pretend to be a watered down version of it. That creates sooo many apathetic voters and unimpressed independents. I don't share the view with you that liberal ideas wouldn't be supported in this country so we'll have to agree to disagree there. In polls the general public supports leftist ideas overwhelmingly but they are also easily swayed by the media as to what's good for them and then there's the religion thing. I think that is slowly changing. History supports what I'm saying. Look at Kerry...he went up against an increasingly unpopular Bush and still lost because he stood for jack shit. He kept wanting to say one thing to one crowd and another to the next. No one was really sure what the hell he stood for. And I feel that's the problem with most Dems. They have no backbone and only get elected when the right's horrible policies are too much to bare anymore...see Clinton and the elections last fall.
also, i've never approached discussing 9/11 with the Bush is satan and blew up anything' stance. I discuss questions and theories that I've read about. I don't think it's an important issue to run on in an election. I think it's something to discuss and share. No one can change the past so there's no need to make it out like it's some dire issue. I think the citizens of this country can make up their own minds and they do. I'm not trying to bring Dubya down or anyting like that just trying to show people what the very powerful in this country are capable of before they go throwing there trust in places it shouldn't go, imo.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
bullshit. what has turned people against this war is seeing the death toll rise in iraq. they don't give a flying fuck about who you think blew up the wtc. 9/11 is forgotten aside from being a huge tragedy. it has been cheapened and demeaned by the bush admin at every point and completely eclipsed by the war in iraq. the 9/11 conspiracy theories havent changed anyone's minds, what changed their minds was the death toll and the growing suspicion that wmd's never existed in iraq.
Death toll yeah somewhat...however what's really doing it is that people are starting to wake up and realize they were lied to. The war was bullshit in the first place. Why? because CT'ers called the official story BS the whole way and it was bullshit. The WMD thing. To blindly follow anything is sheer stupidity. It's essentially like forfeiting your brain.
The CT'ers didn't stop functioning or hover solely around 9/11 either...every step of the way they've been speaking out and illuminating important issues and generating important discussion. A very real necessity. A large majority of all this is from CT sites on the internet. It certainly isn't coming from Fox and CNN.
Curious, do you consider Michael Moore a crazy conspiracy theorist?
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
The left is not the right and it can't keep trying to pretend to be a watered down version of it. That creates sooo many apathetic voters and unimpressed independents. I don't share the view with you that liberal ideas wouldn't be supported in this country so we'll have to agree to disagree there. In polls the general public supports leftist ideas overwhelmingly but they are also easily swayed by the media as to what's good for them and then there's the religion thing. I think that is slowly changing. History supports what I'm saying. Look at Kerry...he went up against an increasingly unpopular Bush and still lost because he stood for jack shit. He kept wanting to say one thing to one crowd and another to the next. No one was really sure what the hell he stood for. And I feel that's the problem with most Dems. They have no backbone and only get elected when the right's horrible policies are too much to bare anymore...see Clinton and the elections last fall.
that is my point. liberal ideas can be accepted, but you have to sell them to the middle and know your audience. kerry lost for a lot of reasons, ive never seen such an unfocused and inadequate campaign. im not suggesting the dems water down conservative politics. im talking about saying "we oppose the war." not saying "we oppose the war becos we think cheney and a council of secret gurus gathered and planned 9/11 for oil revenues." that is when the libs lose credibility and their message is ignored. just as having no stance killed kerry with undecideds, having a slightly nutty stance will kill any liberal with sound policy if he couches it in "look how evil those people are." it makes them look crazy.
Death toll yeah somewhat...however what's really doing it is that people are starting to wake up and realize they were lied to. The war was bullshit in the first place. Why? because CT'ers called the official story BS the whole way and it was bullshit. The WMD thing. To blindly follow anything is sheer stupidity. It's essentially like forfeiting your brain.
The CT'ers didn't stop functioning or hover solely around 9/11 either...every step of the way they've been speaking out and illuminating important issues and generating important discussion. A very real necessity. A large majority of all this is from CT sites on the internet. It certainly isn't coming from Fox and CNN.
Curious, do you consider Michael Moore a crazy conspiracy theorist?
no, i consider michael moore to be just plain crazy and a sensationalist.
the wmd thing was not a conspiracy theory. it was widely uncertain from the beginning. the 9/11 thing is a conspiracy theory. jfk's assassination was a conspiracy theory. ufo coverups are conspiracy theories.
no, i consider michael moore to be just plain crazy and a sensationalist.
the wmd thing was not a conspiracy theory. it was widely uncertain from the beginning. the 9/11 thing is a conspiracy theory. jfk's assassination was a conspiracy theory. ufo coverups are conspiracy theories.
you lay it down for those hippies how it is. i got your back.
This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
that is my point. liberal ideas can be accepted, but you have to sell them to the middle and know your audience. kerry lost for a lot of reasons, ive never seen such an unfocused and inadequate campaign. im not suggesting the dems water down conservative politics. im talking about saying "we oppose the war." not saying "we oppose the war becos we think cheney and a council of secret gurus gathered and planned 9/11 for oil revenues." that is when the libs lose credibility and their message is ignored. just as having no stance killed kerry with undecideds, having a slightly nutty stance will kill any liberal with sound policy if he couches it in "look how evil those people are." it makes them look crazy.
And who exaclty is running on their opinions of 9/11 or the view that anyone is evil. I, myself, don't even believe in evil. I believe there is, however, different perspectives, misjudgements and selfishness that cause people to do things that seem unthinkable to others.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
no, i consider michael moore to be just plain crazy and a sensationalist.
the wmd thing was not a conspiracy theory. it was widely uncertain from the beginning. the 9/11 thing is a conspiracy theory. jfk's assassination was a conspiracy theory. ufo coverups are conspiracy theories.
I think CT in this situation is more of a flowing movement rather than a specific event. I guess it could be called "Bush CT" or "US govt CT". That would be accurate. I think that's essentially called plain old cynicism or perhaps even patriotism.
There's varying degrees. Some people actually wear tinfoil hats...
If nothing MM says strikes you as concerning then you have forfeited your thought process to blind faith. Especially Farenheit 9/11.
Still waiting on building #7. In all reality that was majorly fucked up right there. For sure an impartial investigation would have been able to preserve and analyze large quantities of that wreckage. Maybe terrorists did demolish it? Maybe security was breached somehow and something is rotten from the inside out.. Is there a mole in the US govt? Wouldn't they want to know how and why a little better? Can NIST look into the future and know what will occur?
NIST says hmm.. dunno...evidence?...uhm yeah gone...hauled it away...burned it.... still not finished making up our minds yet...
See what I'm getting at? The impartial approach to the investigation is non existent. It's stinks pretty bad!
It's that in your face really nasty kind of stank actually
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
I think CT in this situation is more of a flowing movement rather than a specific event. I guess it could be called "Bush CT" or "US govt CT". That would be accurate. I think that's essentially called plain old cynicism or perhaps even patriotism.
There's varying degrees. Some people actually wear tinfoil hats...
If nothing MM says strikes you as concerning then you have forfeited your thought process to blind faith. Especially Farenheit 9/11.
Still waiting on building #7. In all reality that was majorly fucked up right there. For sure an impartial investigation would have been able to preserve and analyze large quantities of that wreckage. Maybe terrorists did demolish it? Maybe security was breached somehow and something is rotten from the inside out.. Is there a mole in the US govt? Wouldn't they want to know how and why a little better? Can NIST look into the future and know what will occur?
NIST says hmm.. dunno...evidence?...uhm yeah gone...hauled it away...burned it.... still not finished making up our minds yet...
See what I'm getting at? The impartial approach to the investigation is non existent. It's stinks pretty bad!
It's that in your face really nasty kind of stank actually
i saw fahrenheit 9/11. he took the fact that becos bush was an oil man, and many saudi people were oilmen, bush was behind 9/11. it was bogus. ive never seen facts stretched so thin. he was onto something when he started asking senators to sign up their own kids though. that was mroe on the spot. but if you think his books and movies are cold hard fact, then YOU are the one with no thought process. moore is about as reliable as sean hannity for real news. sure they're using "facts." but they're cherry picking them and distorting them as much as possible to fit their agenda. it's entertainment, not news.
i stopped listening to the bullshit 9/11 pleas for information long ago. we still don't understand how the fucking romans built their roads... with all our technology, we still don't know how the hell the egyptians managed to build those pyramids. it's not exactly shocking to me that even scientists are pretty confused about what exactly happened to those buildings. nobody ever conceived of something like that, and what happens in a lab under very controlled circumstances rarely reflects accurately what happened in the real world where murphy's law has its way with the 10000 factors they couldn't account for in the lab.
And who exaclty is running on their opinions of 9/11 or the view that anyone is evil. I, myself, don't even believe in evil. I believe there is, however, different perspectives, misjudgements and selfishness that cause people to do things that seem unthinkable to others.
come now. there were 2 sides on the left in the kerry campaign... bush and everything he does, stands for, thinks, dreams about, or ponders on the shitter is evil, horrid and wrong. and the "we're not sure what the fuck we stand for yet" dems. the left is supposed to be the party of empathy and understanding. when they get flooded by their hatred of bush, it makes them look as ridiculous and petty as gingrich did when he was going after clinton. people either didnt know what the dems stood for, or they associated them with the foaming at the mouth bush hater who believed 9/11 was an inside job.
i saw fahrenheit 9/11. he took the fact that becos bush was an oil man, and many saudi people were oilmen, bush was behind 9/11. it was bogus. ive never seen facts stretched so thin. he was onto something when he started asking senators to sign up their own kids though. that was mroe on the spot. but if you think his books and movies are cold hard fact, then YOU are the one with no thought process. moore is about as reliable as sean hannity for real news. sure they're using "facts." but they're cherry picking them and distorting them as much as possible to fit their agenda. it's entertainment, not news.
i stopped listening to the bullshit 9/11 pleas for information long ago. we still don't understand how the fucking romans built their roads... with all our technology, we still don't know how the hell the egyptians managed to build those pyramids. it's not exactly shocking to me that even scientists are pretty confused about what exactly happened to those buildings. nobody ever conceived of something like that, and what happens in a lab under very controlled circumstances rarely reflects accurately what happened in the real world where murphy's law has its way with the 10000 factors they couldn't account for in the lab.
Moore raises a lot or really important points and facts that still stand correct to this day. Mostly about why he just sat there reading a book doing nothing...that was the cover of the DVD afterall. The strongest image and lasting impression of the piece. It's the impression or idea as a whole he was trying to get across and it's actually pretty accurate. He couln't see into the future but he got a lot of it right. How do you explain that. Crazy man blind luck? Especially the oil scenario. You think CNN is going to show you this reality.
There's a difference between the romans and pyramids thing...the guys who designed and built the WTC are still alive and can speak, plus we have all the original design schematics, and they were built in our lifetime. I don't really see the comparison all that much.
Granted there are unknowns...but what was done to impartially eliminate the factors leading up to a providing a reasonbale conclusion... destroy and ban the evidence before the investigation has even reached a conclusion?
Seriously now think about it.
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
Moore raises a lot or really important points and facts that still stand correct to this day. Mostly about why he just sat there reading a book doing nothing...that was the cover of the DVD afterall. The strongest image and lasting impression of the piece. It's the impression or idea as a whole he was trying to get across and it's actually pretty accurate. He couln't see into the future but he got a lot of it right. How do you explain that. Crazy man blind luck? Especially the oil scenario. You think CNN is going to show you this reality.
There's a difference between the romans and pyramids thing...the guys who designed and built the WTC are still alive and can speak, plus we have all the original design schematics, and they were built in our lifetime. I don't really see the comparison all that much.
Granted there are unknowns...but what was done to impartially eliminate the factors leading up to a providing a reasonbale conclusion... destroy and ban the evidence before the investigation has even reached a conclusion?
Seriously now think about it.
bush sat there becos he's a damn fool and didnt know what the hell else to do. he was and has been a puppet from day one. i dont doubt there are a lot of people getting rich off this, but i do doubt that bush flew the people who blew up the wtc out of the country to keep them safe. i dont doubt there was massive gross incompetence that allowed this to happen, nor that there was opportunism from the second it did happen. but i do doubt it was planned by those people to create the opportunity. ive yet to see anything that is very compelling reason for me to believe otherwise. your science mumbo jumbo is unconvincing becos for every one of yours, there are two more saying it coulda happened. that's where the pyramids come in... as i said it's easy to sit in a lab with a one inch piece of steel under a blow torch and say "look ma, no melting!" it's another to have two airplanes crash into a building and topple them and look back and say "my computers say that can't happen."
the country was a mess. the bureaucracy turned things upside down. nobody knew who the fuck was in charge or what was going on. im not surprised at all the post-handling was botched. but that's not necessarily evidence of a cover up. 9 times outta 10, the simplest explanation is true. until you give me a smoking gun (which, coincidentally, you DEMANDED from bush over his wmd claims) im not buying it.
bush sat there becos he's a damn fool and didnt know what the hell else to do. he was and has been a puppet from day one. i dont doubt there are a lot of people getting rich off this, but i do doubt that bush flew the people who blew up the wtc out of the country to keep them safe. i dont doubt there was massive gross incompetence that allowed this to happen, nor that there was opportunism from the second it did happen. but i do doubt it was planned by those people to create the opportunity. ive yet to see anything that is very compelling reason for me to believe otherwise. your science mumbo jumbo is unconvincing becos for every one of yours, there are two more saying it coulda happened. that's where the pyramids come in... as i said it's easy to sit in a lab with a one inch piece of steel under a blow torch and say "look ma, no melting!" it's another to have two airplanes crash into a building and topple them and look back and say "my computers say that can't happen."
the country was a mess. the bureaucracy turned things upside down. nobody knew who the fuck was in charge or what was going on. im not surprised at all the post-handling was botched. but that's not necessarily evidence of a cover up. 9 times outta 10, the simplest explanation is true. until you give me a smoking gun (which, coincidentally, you DEMANDED from bush over his wmd claims) im not buying it.
It's not up to Bush...there are people who's ENTIRE JOB it is to keep the president safe. The country is under attack is not a bloody suggestion...it's "sir the country is under attack...let's go...now!" If they Bush/Cheney did nothing the towers would probably still be standing. But the stand down order was upheld (obviously). As it's pretty usual scenario to scramble jets. It's routine. Protocol.
One opinion is more of a "reality scenario" than the other. One is based on on usual practices and measures of past proven history....another is well "they're just dumb and sleepy...see t's not their fault." Nothing to do at all with prior knowledge even eh?
That to me is the real bullshit mentality.
If you believe what you say then you're so hypnotized by blind faith of your blessed leader that it's castrated your patriotism.
Good luck with that path...
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
come now. there were 2 sides on the left in the kerry campaign... bush and everything he does, stands for, thinks, dreams about, or ponders on the shitter is evil, horrid and wrong. and the "we're not sure what the fuck we stand for yet" dems. the left is supposed to be the party of empathy and understanding. when they get flooded by their hatred of bush, it makes them look as ridiculous and petty as gingrich did when he was going after clinton. people either didnt know what the dems stood for, or they associated them with the foaming at the mouth bush hater who believed 9/11 was an inside job.
Well, I guess it would be easier if everyone fit into these nice, neat little boxes...
I wasn't on the 'I hate Bush side' or the 'I don't know what I stand for side'. I did vote for Kerry but it was because I didn't want Bush to nominate any judges and I thought anyone could do a better job than he was doing. I don't think that equals hate or that I think Bush is evil...just complete disgareement with how he was running the country.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
It's not up to Bush...there are people who's ENTIRE JOB it is to keep the president safe. The country is under attack is not a bloody suggestion...it's "sir the country is under attack...let's go...now!" If they Bush/Cheney did nothing the towers would probably still be standing. But the stand down order was upheld (obviously). As it's pretty usual scenario to scramble jets. It's routine. Protocol.
One opinion is more of a "reality scenario" than the other. One is based on on usual practices and measures of past proven history....another is well "they're just dumb and sleepy...see t's not their fault." Nothing to do at all with prior knowledge even eh?
That to me is the real bullshit mentality.
If you believe what you say then you're so hypnotized by blind faith of your blessed leader that it's castrated your patriotism.
Good luck with that path...
you're a real genius you know that? becos i dont agree with your bullshit theories im a blind dubya sheep? newflash sherlock: i loathe george bush. i think history will show him to be one of the most inept and atrocious presidents we've ever had and we will be paying for his abohorrent policies for decades to come. i opposed the iraq war from day one and knew it was instantly a bullshit ruse, though at the time i thought it was just a maneuver to make people forget that we had no fucking clue where bin laden was. as i watched the towers fall i knew we were in for some serious shit becos he was going to be untouchable. and he has milked it for all it's worth. it's sickening really.
but that does not mean i have to believe dubya and cheney planned 9/11 and planted bombs in there to bring the towers down. things were fucked up that day and shit happens. they caught us with our pants down. it was handled poorly by a complacent leadership from the top down. but i see nothing that convinces me the cia or haliburton or your favorite bogeyman did it.
Well, I guess it would be easier if everyone fit into these nice, neat little boxes...
I wasn't on the 'I hate Bush side' or the 'I don't know what I stand for side'. I did vote for Kerry but it was because I didn't want Bush to nominate any judges and I thought anyone could do a better job than he was doing. I don't think that equals hate or that I think Bush is evil...just complete disgareement with how he was running the country.
well, i guess it would be easier if every dem in the country fit into your neat little reasonable box :rolleyes: cmon... we all know how well they smeared the left in that election. all im saying is people like the 9/11 conspiracy theorists make the smear guy's job a helluva lot easier and they discredit and hamper the causes they are fighting for. they're the left wing equivalent of jerry "9/11 was god's punishment for your acceptance of homos" jenkins.
well, i guess it would be easier if every dem in the country fit into your neat little reasonable box :rolleyes: cmon... we all know how well they smeared the left in that election. all im saying is people like the 9/11 conspiracy theorists make the smear guy's job a helluva lot easier and they discredit and hamper the causes they are fighting for. they're the left wing equivalent of jerry "9/11 was god's punishment for your acceptance of homos" jenkins.
So because people question the official 9/11 theory it makes it easy to discredit anyone on the left running for office? That makes no sense. I'll question what the fuck I feel like. It's not like I go around everytime I talk to someone about the war, the merits of socialism, UHC, etc bringing up 9/11....and no one else does this either. I can see that because there are assholes out there that want to call everyone 'crazy' for seeing something differently, you might want to keep those beliefs to yourself when running for office. But I'm not running for office and anyone that decided who to vote for based on what I or anyone else thinks about 9/11 is fucking moron to begin with who probably lacks the brains cell it takes to make any sound decisions for themselves. Those same morons would buy into any discrediting tactics the right spoon feeds them with. :rolleyes:
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
you're a real genius you know that? becos i dont agree with your bullshit theories im a blind dubya sheep? newflash sherlock: i loathe george bush. i think history will show him to be one of the most inept and atrocious presidents we've ever had and we will be paying for his abohorrent policies for decades to come. i opposed the iraq war from day one and knew it was instantly a bullshit ruse, though at the time i thought it was just a maneuver to make people forget that we had no fucking clue where bin laden was. as i watched the towers fall i knew we were in for some serious shit becos he was going to be untouchable. and he has milked it for all it's worth. it's sickening really.
but that does not mean i have to believe dubya and cheney planned 9/11 and planted bombs in there to bring the towers down. things were fucked up that day and shit happens. they caught us with our pants down. it was handled poorly by a complacent leadership from the top down. but i see nothing that convinces me the cia or haliburton or your favorite bogeyman did it.
If by genius you mean I'm perceptive and aware to the realities of the circumstances and factors involved in forming a realistic comprehension of the situation then...well...yes I am.
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
If by genius you mean I'm perceptive and aware to the realities of the circumstances and factors involved in forming a realistic comprehension of the situation then...well...yes I am.
indeed you are... so perceptive you picked right up on my love of george bush by the mere fact that i wasn't accusing him of personally planting bombs in the wtc :rolleyes:
indeed you are... so perceptive you picked right up on my love of george bush by the mere fact that i wasn't accusing him of personally planting bombs in the wtc :rolleyes:
Of course...now you finally got it all together. Glad you were able to manage the big concepts.
remind me to analyze and profile your various peculiarities and beliefs prior to our next conversation.
p.s. there's an audience and I'm speaking to it as well. I hate doing one thing at a time...life's too short.
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
Comments
Name one absolute provable testable 'fact' that CT'ers have brought to light that was otherwise unkown.
Name one.
Go ask Alex Jones....he'll party hardy with ya...
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
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1) that reasoning is WHY the dems keep losing elections: the self-defeating thought that it is impossible for liberal ideas to be accepted in the mainstream. it shows how out of touch you are with real america and it's why they keep losing. the idea that dems must give up on trying to reach middle american voters and run a ralph nader campaign is ridiculous. if the dems ran on a hard left ticket, they'd never win another election again. ever. america is conservative for the most part. the dems have to stand as a centrist party or become irrelevant. every hard left candidate that has ever run in the modern era has gotten slaughtered in the general election. but you present moderately liberal ideas to america without this "dubya is satan and personally blew up those towers!" nonsense and you can win.
2) this is true. the christian right at the moment has a huge and powerful political influence. though im not sure it's waning just yet. that remains to be seen.
bullshit. what has turned people against this war is seeing the death toll rise in iraq. they don't give a flying fuck about who you think blew up the wtc. 9/11 is forgotten aside from being a huge tragedy. it has been cheapened and demeaned by the bush admin at every point and completely eclipsed by the war in iraq. the 9/11 conspiracy theories havent changed anyone's minds, what changed their minds was the death toll and the growing suspicion that wmd's never existed in iraq.
The left is not the right and it can't keep trying to pretend to be a watered down version of it. That creates sooo many apathetic voters and unimpressed independents. I don't share the view with you that liberal ideas wouldn't be supported in this country so we'll have to agree to disagree there. In polls the general public supports leftist ideas overwhelmingly but they are also easily swayed by the media as to what's good for them and then there's the religion thing. I think that is slowly changing. History supports what I'm saying. Look at Kerry...he went up against an increasingly unpopular Bush and still lost because he stood for jack shit. He kept wanting to say one thing to one crowd and another to the next. No one was really sure what the hell he stood for. And I feel that's the problem with most Dems. They have no backbone and only get elected when the right's horrible policies are too much to bare anymore...see Clinton and the elections last fall.
also, i've never approached discussing 9/11 with the Bush is satan and blew up anything' stance. I discuss questions and theories that I've read about. I don't think it's an important issue to run on in an election. I think it's something to discuss and share. No one can change the past so there's no need to make it out like it's some dire issue. I think the citizens of this country can make up their own minds and they do. I'm not trying to bring Dubya down or anyting like that just trying to show people what the very powerful in this country are capable of before they go throwing there trust in places it shouldn't go, imo.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Death toll yeah somewhat...however what's really doing it is that people are starting to wake up and realize they were lied to. The war was bullshit in the first place. Why? because CT'ers called the official story BS the whole way and it was bullshit. The WMD thing. To blindly follow anything is sheer stupidity. It's essentially like forfeiting your brain.
The CT'ers didn't stop functioning or hover solely around 9/11 either...every step of the way they've been speaking out and illuminating important issues and generating important discussion. A very real necessity. A large majority of all this is from CT sites on the internet. It certainly isn't coming from Fox and CNN.
Curious, do you consider Michael Moore a crazy conspiracy theorist?
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
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that is my point. liberal ideas can be accepted, but you have to sell them to the middle and know your audience. kerry lost for a lot of reasons, ive never seen such an unfocused and inadequate campaign. im not suggesting the dems water down conservative politics. im talking about saying "we oppose the war." not saying "we oppose the war becos we think cheney and a council of secret gurus gathered and planned 9/11 for oil revenues." that is when the libs lose credibility and their message is ignored. just as having no stance killed kerry with undecideds, having a slightly nutty stance will kill any liberal with sound policy if he couches it in "look how evil those people are." it makes them look crazy.
no, i consider michael moore to be just plain crazy and a sensationalist.
the wmd thing was not a conspiracy theory. it was widely uncertain from the beginning. the 9/11 thing is a conspiracy theory. jfk's assassination was a conspiracy theory. ufo coverups are conspiracy theories.
And who exaclty is running on their opinions of 9/11 or the view that anyone is evil. I, myself, don't even believe in evil. I believe there is, however, different perspectives, misjudgements and selfishness that cause people to do things that seem unthinkable to others.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
I think CT in this situation is more of a flowing movement rather than a specific event. I guess it could be called "Bush CT" or "US govt CT". That would be accurate. I think that's essentially called plain old cynicism or perhaps even patriotism.
There's varying degrees. Some people actually wear tinfoil hats...
If nothing MM says strikes you as concerning then you have forfeited your thought process to blind faith. Especially Farenheit 9/11.
Still waiting on building #7. In all reality that was majorly fucked up right there. For sure an impartial investigation would have been able to preserve and analyze large quantities of that wreckage. Maybe terrorists did demolish it? Maybe security was breached somehow and something is rotten from the inside out.. Is there a mole in the US govt? Wouldn't they want to know how and why a little better? Can NIST look into the future and know what will occur?
NIST says hmm.. dunno...evidence?...uhm yeah gone...hauled it away...burned it.... still not finished making up our minds yet...
See what I'm getting at? The impartial approach to the investigation is non existent. It's stinks pretty bad!
It's that in your face really nasty kind of stank actually
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
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i saw fahrenheit 9/11. he took the fact that becos bush was an oil man, and many saudi people were oilmen, bush was behind 9/11. it was bogus. ive never seen facts stretched so thin. he was onto something when he started asking senators to sign up their own kids though. that was mroe on the spot. but if you think his books and movies are cold hard fact, then YOU are the one with no thought process. moore is about as reliable as sean hannity for real news. sure they're using "facts." but they're cherry picking them and distorting them as much as possible to fit their agenda. it's entertainment, not news.
i stopped listening to the bullshit 9/11 pleas for information long ago. we still don't understand how the fucking romans built their roads... with all our technology, we still don't know how the hell the egyptians managed to build those pyramids. it's not exactly shocking to me that even scientists are pretty confused about what exactly happened to those buildings. nobody ever conceived of something like that, and what happens in a lab under very controlled circumstances rarely reflects accurately what happened in the real world where murphy's law has its way with the 10000 factors they couldn't account for in the lab.
come now. there were 2 sides on the left in the kerry campaign... bush and everything he does, stands for, thinks, dreams about, or ponders on the shitter is evil, horrid and wrong. and the "we're not sure what the fuck we stand for yet" dems. the left is supposed to be the party of empathy and understanding. when they get flooded by their hatred of bush, it makes them look as ridiculous and petty as gingrich did when he was going after clinton. people either didnt know what the dems stood for, or they associated them with the foaming at the mouth bush hater who believed 9/11 was an inside job.
Moore raises a lot or really important points and facts that still stand correct to this day. Mostly about why he just sat there reading a book doing nothing...that was the cover of the DVD afterall. The strongest image and lasting impression of the piece. It's the impression or idea as a whole he was trying to get across and it's actually pretty accurate. He couln't see into the future but he got a lot of it right. How do you explain that. Crazy man blind luck? Especially the oil scenario. You think CNN is going to show you this reality.
There's a difference between the romans and pyramids thing...the guys who designed and built the WTC are still alive and can speak, plus we have all the original design schematics, and they were built in our lifetime. I don't really see the comparison all that much.
Granted there are unknowns...but what was done to impartially eliminate the factors leading up to a providing a reasonbale conclusion... destroy and ban the evidence before the investigation has even reached a conclusion?
Seriously now think about it.
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
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bush sat there becos he's a damn fool and didnt know what the hell else to do. he was and has been a puppet from day one. i dont doubt there are a lot of people getting rich off this, but i do doubt that bush flew the people who blew up the wtc out of the country to keep them safe. i dont doubt there was massive gross incompetence that allowed this to happen, nor that there was opportunism from the second it did happen. but i do doubt it was planned by those people to create the opportunity. ive yet to see anything that is very compelling reason for me to believe otherwise. your science mumbo jumbo is unconvincing becos for every one of yours, there are two more saying it coulda happened. that's where the pyramids come in... as i said it's easy to sit in a lab with a one inch piece of steel under a blow torch and say "look ma, no melting!" it's another to have two airplanes crash into a building and topple them and look back and say "my computers say that can't happen."
the country was a mess. the bureaucracy turned things upside down. nobody knew who the fuck was in charge or what was going on. im not surprised at all the post-handling was botched. but that's not necessarily evidence of a cover up. 9 times outta 10, the simplest explanation is true. until you give me a smoking gun (which, coincidentally, you DEMANDED from bush over his wmd claims) im not buying it.
It's not up to Bush...there are people who's ENTIRE JOB it is to keep the president safe. The country is under attack is not a bloody suggestion...it's "sir the country is under attack...let's go...now!" If they Bush/Cheney did nothing the towers would probably still be standing. But the stand down order was upheld (obviously). As it's pretty usual scenario to scramble jets. It's routine. Protocol.
One opinion is more of a "reality scenario" than the other. One is based on on usual practices and measures of past proven history....another is well "they're just dumb and sleepy...see t's not their fault." Nothing to do at all with prior knowledge even eh?
That to me is the real bullshit mentality.
If you believe what you say then you're so hypnotized by blind faith of your blessed leader that it's castrated your patriotism.
Good luck with that path...
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
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Well, I guess it would be easier if everyone fit into these nice, neat little boxes...
I wasn't on the 'I hate Bush side' or the 'I don't know what I stand for side'. I did vote for Kerry but it was because I didn't want Bush to nominate any judges and I thought anyone could do a better job than he was doing. I don't think that equals hate or that I think Bush is evil...just complete disgareement with how he was running the country.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
you're a real genius you know that? becos i dont agree with your bullshit theories im a blind dubya sheep? newflash sherlock: i loathe george bush. i think history will show him to be one of the most inept and atrocious presidents we've ever had and we will be paying for his abohorrent policies for decades to come. i opposed the iraq war from day one and knew it was instantly a bullshit ruse, though at the time i thought it was just a maneuver to make people forget that we had no fucking clue where bin laden was. as i watched the towers fall i knew we were in for some serious shit becos he was going to be untouchable. and he has milked it for all it's worth. it's sickening really.
but that does not mean i have to believe dubya and cheney planned 9/11 and planted bombs in there to bring the towers down. things were fucked up that day and shit happens. they caught us with our pants down. it was handled poorly by a complacent leadership from the top down. but i see nothing that convinces me the cia or haliburton or your favorite bogeyman did it.
well, i guess it would be easier if every dem in the country fit into your neat little reasonable box :rolleyes: cmon... we all know how well they smeared the left in that election. all im saying is people like the 9/11 conspiracy theorists make the smear guy's job a helluva lot easier and they discredit and hamper the causes they are fighting for. they're the left wing equivalent of jerry "9/11 was god's punishment for your acceptance of homos" jenkins.
So because people question the official 9/11 theory it makes it easy to discredit anyone on the left running for office? That makes no sense. I'll question what the fuck I feel like. It's not like I go around everytime I talk to someone about the war, the merits of socialism, UHC, etc bringing up 9/11....and no one else does this either. I can see that because there are assholes out there that want to call everyone 'crazy' for seeing something differently, you might want to keep those beliefs to yourself when running for office. But I'm not running for office and anyone that decided who to vote for based on what I or anyone else thinks about 9/11 is fucking moron to begin with who probably lacks the brains cell it takes to make any sound decisions for themselves. Those same morons would buy into any discrediting tactics the right spoon feeds them with. :rolleyes:
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
If by genius you mean I'm perceptive and aware to the realities of the circumstances and factors involved in forming a realistic comprehension of the situation then...well...yes I am.
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
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indeed you are... so perceptive you picked right up on my love of george bush by the mere fact that i wasn't accusing him of personally planting bombs in the wtc :rolleyes:
Of course...now you finally got it all together. Glad you were able to manage the big concepts.
remind me to analyze and profile your various peculiarities and beliefs prior to our next conversation.
p.s. there's an audience and I'm speaking to it as well. I hate doing one thing at a time...life's too short.
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
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