Hit the rich for a couple more bucks as well. They could easily afford it and help their fellow Americans in the process.
while i agree they can easily afford it; why should they be mandated to pick up the slack? If we go to a truly socialized health care system; I hope we also penalize people for obesity, smoking, drinking, eating fast food etc... If my money is going to be used to support someone else's healthcare on some level I had better have a say in the policy.
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
the middle class can't pay more, w/o falling to the lower class. It seems the dems have all of these utopic ideas about helping everyone, but how will they be able to afford it? We already spend 46 % of our nations budget on entitlement programs...we cant just keep adding more and more.
Chopitdown, do you know exactly what falls under the umbrella of 'entitlement programs' or can you direct me to a link that breaks down this 46%? Does it, for example, include programs such as social security and medicare?
The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
Chopitdown, do you know exactly what falls under the umbrella of 'entitlement programs' or can you direct me to a link that breaks down this 46%? Does it, for example, include programs such as social security and medicare?
the factcheck article cited the Budget for the US in 2008...it's 336 pages long...i didn't read through it to verify the number, i hope you can understand
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
while i agree they can easily afford it; why should they be mandated to pick up the slack? If we go to a truly socialized health care system; I hope we also penalize people for obesity, smoking, drinking, eating fast food etc... If my money is going to be used to support someone else's healthcare on some level I had better have a say in the policy.
You my friend, are a hard ass. Just help someone because you can. Simple as that. If you can help, do it.
There will be a revolution soon in this country (in this world) if the rich do not start giving back.
If you have health insurance, you money is being used to support someones healthcare.
All that's sacred, comes from youth....dedications, naive and true.
If we can come up with a system that can help everyone get top notch grade A healthcare in this country, I am all for it. I truly believe there are people smart enought to put together a plan that works for all.
Therefore, I want those I put in office to get going on it (dont get me wrong, they are not the smart ones. they hire the smart ones).
All that's sacred, comes from youth....dedications, naive and true.
the factcheck article cited the Budget for the US in 2008...it's 336 pages long...i didn't read through it to verify the number, i hope you can understand
Thanks! I'm still trying to process that link you gave me, but here are some initial thoughts. I would suggest that every income bracket benefits from some sort of entitlement program, corporate welfare comes to mind. Also, as far as social security and medicare, is there an income requirement for these programs, or in other words, aren't these benefits paid to out every income bracket? It seems to me that it is the middle class is a strong supporter SS & medicare. The two largest welfare programs specifically for the poor are AFDC and food stamps, each take up only a fraction of the combined government budget, I believe. I think we need to be careful and clear what we include in these percentages. In other words I don't think you can blame welfare for all of runaway gov't spending.
The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
There will be a revolution soon in this country (in this world) if the rich do not start giving back.
I do think the 'rich' could give more, but something that I pointed out numerous times in the charity thread is there ARE wealthy folks that DO give back and I think, instead of pointing the finger at all the greedy folks, we should be praising and pointing out those that make a difference. Those that have made a difference should be seen as the 'gold standard'. To be frank, in a free society, you can not tell someone what they can or can't do with their money. To do so would set a very dangerous precedent, even if the initial intention is pure. But, we can as a society can set the standard and possibly inspire someone to follow in the footsteps of some of the greatest philanthropists. Or at the very least, prompt some greedy jerk to donate to 'save face'.
The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
the middle class can't pay more, w/o falling to the lower class. It seems the dems have all of these utopic ideas about helping everyone, but how will they be able to afford it? We already spend 46 % of our nations budget on entitlement programs...we cant just keep adding more and more.
surferdude just posted this on another thread. it's so true i had to copy it here:
What utter crock. Does the wrieter understand that a lot of peoples money is tied up doing things like employing others? If they were to just pull out that money what would we do wth all the unemployed? My biggest investments, property, sure don't generate a 5% cash return annually. All they do is appreciate in value. It makes me look richer on paper and that's it. The majority of most peoples real, cash wealth is only derived upon selling the asset and not from any sort of annual return. Selling the assets to generate cash flow would see a quick end to this endowment fund.
There is only one long term and lasting solution, fair trade policies and education. Money hand outs nad subsidies are just band aid solutions meant to stiop the slaughter in the short term.
the movie made it seem like you can take a boat to the cuban harbour and get $60K surgery free. a couple of reasons america will never have free healthcare is america has too many layabouts. i refuse to pay for a dozen other peoples healthcare just because they either don't want to work or don't report their drug earnings. the next reason is crap like sicko is presented to the people and the sheep follow along. but they follow blindly because they believe the bs in the movie. with the masses filled with bs information they demand free healthcare based on the lies they were told. but they don't know what they're asking for. they're asking for their taxes to be doubled. they're asking for waits of hours to see a doctor and possably years waiting for surgeries or even MRIs.
be careful what you ask for; you just may get it.
I've got a copy of the movie. I suppose I should give it a viewing at some point.
Maybe this weekend.
The usually left-minded Kurt Loder, of MTV news fame (and Rolling Stone magazine) gave it a piss down review. I almost wondered if it was intentionally fueling the fire of the debate it was so incendiary a write-up. If I didn't know Loder's "work" better...
It was way too partisan a piece to take seriously.
"Castro called in a specialist from Spain during his illness."
Keep in mind that, in Canada, we pay taxes that amount to about 50-55% of our income. In the US, you pay about 30% which is a significant difference. As far as I'm concerned, our healthcare system is very very good. Between sports injuries and other experiences I've had in Ontario hospitals, the service and care is terrific.
Keep in mind that, in Canada, we pay taxes that amount to about 50-55% of our income. In the US, you pay about 30% which is a significant difference. As far as I'm concerned, our healthcare system is very very good. Between sports injuries and other experiences I've had in Ontario hospitals, the service and care is terrific.
nowhere near 50-55% ... i'm in the highest tax bracket (percentage wise) and i still don't pay that much ...
but either way - there are two things to get out of this movie:
1. american policy is all about greed and profiteering
2. americans live in fear and are demoralized - thus not able to fight the exploitation that occurs
In regards to health care in the US, I think it boils down to:
A) Americans are getting screwed Americans are getting screwed
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
Michael Moore really really bothers me. I think it's the fact that a lot of times he asks questions that put the interviewee in a lose-lose situation. If they don't answer, they look like an asshole, but if they answer the question the way Moore set it up, they look like an asshole.
Stunned by my own reflection
It's looking back, sees me too clearly
And I swore I'd never go there again
Not unlike a friend that politely drags you down
My husband has a life threatening disease. We ran to the ER last March thinking it was going to be the end. Just as I was noticing that his blood pressure was over 200 (he takes medication to keep it low, and it's usually 110), and that he was most likely going to die soon, a nice lady approached me apologetically and asked for our insurance card and a copayment. She didn't deserve my fuck you, since she was just doing her job, but the system surely did.
When we had a similar scare in Italy two years ago we spent the day in the ER, he had MRIs, CAT scans done, all sorts of tests and they didn't even ask for his name.
After anedoctal evidence from 25 years living in Italy and 11 in the US there is nothing that will ever convince me that the US system is better.
... and the will to show I will always be better than before.
Michael Moore really really bothers me. I think it's the fact that a lot of times he asks questions that put the interviewee in a lose-lose situation. If they don't answer, they look like an asshole, but if they answer the question the way Moore set it up, they look like an asshole.
Of course, many of the people he interviews simply ARE assholes.
... and the will to show I will always be better than before.
In Canada dental work is not covered. You need a plan at your work or to buy into one. However tooth extraction is like $60 a tooth or something like that. Approx the same for cleanings.
I'm quite happy with the system in Canada. It's not super awesome, but it's certainly adequate, and it will keep your ass alive and healthy. I am looking at brain surgery in a few months btw... In reality, doctors can only do so much, the rest is mostly up to the individual.
The main thing is to be persistent and knowledgeable about your symptoms, condition etc..and get an umpteenth opinion if you want/need to (free).
There's always horror stories, but that rings true for everything that happens in life from going to the bathroom to sky diving.
words are small, i know, but i hope for the best for you with the surgery. you will be on our minds and i'll be thinking positive thoughts for you.
Of course, many of the people he interviews simply ARE assholes.
Heh... touche.
Stunned by my own reflection
It's looking back, sees me too clearly
And I swore I'd never go there again
Not unlike a friend that politely drags you down
Michael Moore really really bothers me. I think it's the fact that a lot of times he asks questions that put the interviewee in a lose-lose situation. If they don't answer, they look like an asshole, but if they answer the question the way Moore set it up, they look like an asshole.
maybe it's because they're assholes...
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
24 out of 25 of the worlds most industrialized countries have socialized health care.
Very interesting pattern to be noted here.
Any guesses who the #25 country is?
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
Keep in mind that, in Canada, we pay taxes that amount to about 50-55% of our income. In the US, you pay about 30% which is a significant difference. As far as I'm concerned, our healthcare system is very very good. Between sports injuries and other experiences I've had in Ontario hospitals, the service and care is terrific.
i pay more in taxes then most people make in a year yet the highest rate i've ever paid was 22%. where did you get this 30% figure? am i missing something?
nowhere near 50-55% ... i'm in the highest tax bracket (percentage wise) and i still don't pay that much ...
but either way - there are two things to get out of this movie:
1. american policy is all about greed and profiteering
2. americans live in fear and are demoralized - thus not able to fight the exploitation that occurs
If you are in the top bracket, include your property tax with your income tax and you should easily be over 50%. Now, if you want to get even more disgusted, factor in your GST, as it also goes to the federal government. Wanna get picky? Add your provincial sales tax, and you will probably go over the 55% mark. Not kidding. And don't just say that canadian healthcare is a federal endeavour, because while it is run at the federal level, contributions are made at each level of government.
how's about this...i'm asking for my taxes to stop going towards blowing people to pieces and start going towards fixing what's wrong with people.
is that ok?
sounds like a nice dream that will never happen. we've always had a military budget and always will. we have agreements with countries to protect them. when we're not using arms we're stocking up on them. the world is too volital (sp?) to slack off on our military. not too long ago north korea had IBMs with our name on them.
if you read the post on i believe page 1; you'd see that these nations with socialized healthcare are trying to establish private healthcare because the socialized medicine isn't working. in canada; you can wait up to 1 year for approval for an MRI. do you want your taxes doubled to receive that kind of service. if canada legalizes private healthcare it will have the same system as the us. private healthcare and socialized healthcare for those that can't afford private healthcare. which is about the same as our medicare system. i have medicare and i can get an MRI the day the doctor orders it.
Comments
while i agree they can easily afford it; why should they be mandated to pick up the slack? If we go to a truly socialized health care system; I hope we also penalize people for obesity, smoking, drinking, eating fast food etc... If my money is going to be used to support someone else's healthcare on some level I had better have a say in the policy.
Chopitdown, do you know exactly what falls under the umbrella of 'entitlement programs' or can you direct me to a link that breaks down this 46%? Does it, for example, include programs such as social security and medicare?
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
this is where i got that figure. "In fact, all defense spending amounts to just 23.6 percent of the budget, or about half what is spent on Social Security, Medicare and other entitlement programs." http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/democratic_debate_part_3.html
the factcheck article cited the Budget for the US in 2008...it's 336 pages long...i didn't read through it to verify the number, i hope you can understand
There will be a revolution soon in this country (in this world) if the rich do not start giving back.
If you have health insurance, you money is being used to support someones healthcare.
I believe we should help people, and I recognize that my view prob won't catch on, and I'm ok with it...I just wanted to argue for principle.
I'd also be happy if it just wasn't the rich making up the rules for everyone else.
I know, and I aint happy about it :cool:
Therefore, I want those I put in office to get going on it (dont get me wrong, they are not the smart ones. they hire the smart ones).
Thanks! I'm still trying to process that link you gave me, but here are some initial thoughts. I would suggest that every income bracket benefits from some sort of entitlement program, corporate welfare comes to mind. Also, as far as social security and medicare, is there an income requirement for these programs, or in other words, aren't these benefits paid to out every income bracket? It seems to me that it is the middle class is a strong supporter SS & medicare. The two largest welfare programs specifically for the poor are AFDC and food stamps, each take up only a fraction of the combined government budget, I believe. I think we need to be careful and clear what we include in these percentages. In other words I don't think you can blame welfare for all of runaway gov't spending.
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
I do think the 'rich' could give more, but something that I pointed out numerous times in the charity thread is there ARE wealthy folks that DO give back and I think, instead of pointing the finger at all the greedy folks, we should be praising and pointing out those that make a difference. Those that have made a difference should be seen as the 'gold standard'. To be frank, in a free society, you can not tell someone what they can or can't do with their money. To do so would set a very dangerous precedent, even if the initial intention is pure. But, we can as a society can set the standard and possibly inspire someone to follow in the footsteps of some of the greatest philanthropists. Or at the very least, prompt some greedy jerk to donate to 'save face'.
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
surferdude just posted this on another thread. it's so true i had to copy it here:
The betterment falls somewhere in between.
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except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
I've got a copy of the movie. I suppose I should give it a viewing at some point.
Maybe this weekend.
It was way too partisan a piece to take seriously.
"Castro called in a specialist from Spain during his illness."
Fuck you Loder.
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
Yep.
I think after F911, he found his voice was just as effective in the negative, maybe even moreso, than otherwise. He knows his niche, and uses it well.
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
Sounds reasonable to me.
that seems to make sense.
nowhere near 50-55% ... i'm in the highest tax bracket (percentage wise) and i still don't pay that much ...
but either way - there are two things to get out of this movie:
1. american policy is all about greed and profiteering
2. americans live in fear and are demoralized - thus not able to fight the exploitation that occurs
A) Americans are getting screwed
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
It's looking back, sees me too clearly
And I swore I'd never go there again
Not unlike a friend that politely drags you down
When we had a similar scare in Italy two years ago we spent the day in the ER, he had MRIs, CAT scans done, all sorts of tests and they didn't even ask for his name.
After anedoctal evidence from 25 years living in Italy and 11 in the US there is nothing that will ever convince me that the US system is better.
Of course, many of the people he interviews simply ARE assholes.
words are small, i know, but i hope for the best for you with the surgery. you will be on our minds and i'll be thinking positive thoughts for you.
Heh... touche.
It's looking back, sees me too clearly
And I swore I'd never go there again
Not unlike a friend that politely drags you down
maybe it's because they're assholes...
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
Very interesting pattern to be noted here.
Any guesses who the #25 country is?
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
U, S, and A ?
i pay more in taxes then most people make in a year yet the highest rate i've ever paid was 22%. where did you get this 30% figure? am i missing something?
If you are in the top bracket, include your property tax with your income tax and you should easily be over 50%. Now, if you want to get even more disgusted, factor in your GST, as it also goes to the federal government. Wanna get picky? Add your provincial sales tax, and you will probably go over the 55% mark. Not kidding. And don't just say that canadian healthcare is a federal endeavour, because while it is run at the federal level, contributions are made at each level of government.
sounds like a nice dream that will never happen. we've always had a military budget and always will. we have agreements with countries to protect them. when we're not using arms we're stocking up on them. the world is too volital (sp?) to slack off on our military. not too long ago north korea had IBMs with our name on them.
if you read the post on i believe page 1; you'd see that these nations with socialized healthcare are trying to establish private healthcare because the socialized medicine isn't working. in canada; you can wait up to 1 year for approval for an MRI. do you want your taxes doubled to receive that kind of service. if canada legalizes private healthcare it will have the same system as the us. private healthcare and socialized healthcare for those that can't afford private healthcare. which is about the same as our medicare system. i have medicare and i can get an MRI the day the doctor orders it.