Why should I vote for Nader

Its Evolution Baby · June 2008

Comparing Obama to a tool like McCain is not only dishonest but to me it is bashing him. So that's why I think Nader fans are bashing Obama. We can agree to disagree how similar a young articulate Liberal Senator is to a an old crotchety white somewhat in the middle Senator. I don't think any of there policies are close to being the same from taxes, health care, the war, immigration etc.

I am willing to bet if you sit Obama and Nader down and go over there beliefs you will find that Obama is closer to Nader then McCain.

Abookamongstthemany · June 2008

Its Evolution Baby wrote:

Comparing Obama to a tool like McCain is not only dishonest but to me it is bashing him. So that's why I think Nader fans are bashing Obama. We can agree to disagree how similar a young articulate Liberal Senator is to a an old crotchety white somewhat in the middle Senator. I don't think any of there policies are close to being the same from taxes, health care, the war, immigration etc.

I am willing to bet if you sit Obama and Nader down and go over there beliefs you will find that Obama is closer to Nader then McCain.

Then show me some issues that they are the same on since you believe this enough to bet on it.

Abookamongstthemany · June 2008

VictoryGin wrote:

very important issues into the public arena, like what and how?

sure he showed he was another choice by running, but my question was what impact did that have. it's obvious he's another choice---how did that change our system?

Its Evolution Baby · June 2008

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

Then show me some issues that they are the same on since you believe this enough to bet on it.

Theres to much propaganda floating out there to know what is real or not these days. I would like to see them talk and debate is all.

But here is some interesting reading...
http://redwoodreality.blogspot.com/2008/02/nader-vs-obama.html
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/02/25/7274/

This one doesn't really apply but interesting opinion piece...
http://www.slate.com/id/2185614/

http://www.counterpunch.org/lindorff04142008.html

http://governmentdirt.com/third_parties_are_always_the_answer_the_nader_campaign

Here's an interesting one on Nader being Anti Israel:
http://njjewishnews.com/justASC/2008/02/25/suddenly-naders-an-obama-maven/

Abookamongstthemany · June 2008

Its Evolution Baby wrote:

Theres to much propaganda floating out there to know what is real or not these days. I would like to see them talk and debate is all.

But here is some interesting reading...
http://redwoodreality.blogspot.com/2008/02/nader-vs-obama.html
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/02/25/7274/

This one doesn't really apply but interesting opinion piece...
http://www.slate.com/id/2185614/

http://www.counterpunch.org/lindorff04142008.html

http://governmentdirt.com/third_parties_are_always_the_answer_the_nader_campaign

Here's an interesting one on Nader being Anti Israel:
http://njjewishnews.com/justASC/2008/02/25/suddenly-naders-an-obama-maven/

I would ABSOLUTELY LOVE to see them debate, as well. Then you would really see just how different Nader's ideas are from that of McCain and Obama.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=MyvVQYf6XWk

Its Evolution Baby · June 2008

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

I would ABSOLUTELY LOVE to see them debate, as well. Then you would really see just how different Nader's ideas are from that of McCain and Obama.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=MyvVQYf6XWk

What i don't get is that all of the Republicans criticize Obama for being voted the most liberal senator in the senate yet hes closer to McCain then Nader????

I have yet to see one article where Nader himself says Obama is the same as McCain. I would love to hear it come out of Nader's mouth because I don't think he believes it. I think he is more upset that Obama is moving away from Nader's ideals to get elected. AND THAT IS A VERY FAIR CRITIQUE.

However I believe all Presidential candidates who have a prayer of being elected have to pander to the general public, and not the fringes. There is a very good chance that Obama would be the most liberal president since JFK. But I guess that is still not good enough for the far left.

Abookamongstthemany · June 2008

Its Evolution Baby wrote:

What i don't get is that all of the Republicans criticize Obama for being voted the most liberal senator in the senate yet hes closer to McCain then Nader????

because they are full of shit and want to smear him in any way they think will stick. That question is easy enough.

Its Evolution Baby wrote:

I have yet to see one article where Nader himself says Obama is the same as McCain. I would love to hear it come out of Nader's mouth because I don't think he believes it. I think he is more upset that Obama is moving away from Nader's ideals to get elected. AND THAT IS A VERY FAIR CRITIQUE.

I have. I've seen plenty of facts he has brought to light that show just how much their platforms are alike, especially in comparison to Nader's

Its Evolution Baby wrote:

However I believe all Presidential candidates who have a prayer of being elected have to pander to the general public, and not the fringes. There is a very good chance that Obama would be the most liberal president since JFK. But I guess that is still not good enough for the far left.

That's just it. Both parties are much further to the right on the issues than what the public is polling at. Roland posted a great interview from Chomsky pointing out just that. The general public overwhelming poll towards wanting a single payer UHC system, they poll at wanting to decrease the scope and budget of the defense sector and putting the tax money back into our social programs which are dying, they poll at viewing BOTH parties as being corrupt and not trusting them, they poll at wanting to decrease corporate welfare and so on....The two parties do not represent the views of America but rather they represent the corporate interests that fund them and throw the people little bones here and there to make it seem like they are actually doing something.

Its Evolution Baby · June 2008

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

because they are full of shit and want to smear him in any way they think will stick. That question is easy enough.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/news/2008/01/obama_ranked_most_liberal_sena_1.html
Reported by NPR.

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

I have. I've seen plenty of facts he has brought to light that show just how much their platforms are alike, especially in comparison to Nader's

I would love to take your word but please show me Nader comparing Obama and his policies to McCain. I don't want generic Democrat vs. Republican vs. Nader BS. I want a quote where he really rips into Obama. I have searched all day at the risk of being fired and I have not found anything. So perhaps you could help me out.

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

That's just it. Both parties are much further to the right on the issues than what the public is polling at. Roland posted a great interview from Chomsky pointing out just that. The general public overwhelming poll towards wanting a single payer UHC system, they poll at wanting to decrease the scope and budget of the defense sector and putting the tax money back into our social programs which are dying, they poll at viewing BOTH parties as being corrupt and not trusting them, they poll at wanting to decrease corporate welfare and so on....The two parties do not represent the views of America but rather they represent the corporate interests that fund them and throw the people little bones here and there to make it seem like they are actually doing something.

Obama is for an increase in social programs. That is another critique from Repulicans is that hes going to raise the taxes to fund it. He also wants troops home from Iraq as soon as possible even if advised against it by Petreus. Obama will get us closer to a UHC system then we ever have had before. McCain wants no part of it. I'm just not buying it that McCain and Obama are the same. If Democrats and Republicans are the same then why all the hate between the two parties???

redsdisease · June 2008

Because of the way that our electoral system works, no single voter has any real sway over who becomes elected. For example, I live in Oregon, Obama will win this state in the November election no matter who I vote for. It doesn't matter if I vote for McCain or Obama because Obama will win this state. So those that worry about wasting their vote don't need to worry, whoever they vote for will be a wasted vote. Vote for who you think is the best candidate. Or, even better, work outside of electoral politics and actually do something.

Abookamongstthemany · June 2008

Its Evolution Baby wrote:

http://www.npr.org/blogs/news/2008/01/obama_ranked_most_liberal_sena_1.html
Reported by NPR.

We already discussed this article and what I thought of it.
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=275592

and there's this
http://counterpunch.org/colby02262008.html

Its Evolution Baby wrote:

I would love to take your word but please show me Nader comparing Obama and his policies to McCain. I don't want generic Democrat vs. Republican vs. Nader BS. I want a quote where he really rips into Obama. I have searched all day at the risk of being fired and I have not found anything. So perhaps you could help me out.

I'd like to first mention how ironic it is for you to ask me for info when you clearly couldn't find the info on how Nader and Obama's platforms so much alike so much so that you'd bet on it.

stuff from Nader and his running mate Matt Gonzalez and others:
http://www.votenader.org/issues/
http://www.votenader.org/media/
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Fz7EkulVyHo
http://youtube.com/watch?v=fUTkg-zt6S8
http://blogs.usatoday.com/oped/2008/03/its-not-about-m.html#more
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=283448
http://beyondchron.org/news/index.php?itemid=5413#more
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=285579
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=286746
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NoN0ndnVWM
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=279530
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=277744
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=274906

Its Evolution Baby wrote:

Obama is for an increase in social programs. That is another critique from Repulicans is that hes going to raise the taxes to fund it. He also wants troops home from Iraq as soon as possible even if advised against it by Petreus. Obama will get us closer to a UHC system then we ever have had before. McCain wants no part of it. I'm just not buying it that McCain and Obama are the same. If Democrats and Republicans are the same then why all the hate between the two parties???

It's all show. Tell me how things have changed in this country with either of these parties. They bicker over small topics while aligning on the huge ones.

Obama wants to continue with Bush's No Child Left Behind plan which is complete bullshit and only teaches children how to pass standardized tests. He wants to expand and increase the military PLUS build up social programs...which do you think will really get done? He supports and is funded by the nuclear power industry, big pharma, financial institutes who are involved in mountains of the very same predatory lending he claims to be against. He's voted to fund the war and re-authorize the Patriot Act twice. His foreign policy is very similar to McCain's. His healthcare plan is no change at all really...I think FFG actually pointed at that even McCain's plan involved more changing of the current system than Obama's. He won't even commit to having the troops out of Iraq by 2013...how is that different than McCain? He supports the use of Blackwater. He's said the first gulf war was just. He's said he admires the policies of Reagan and Bush Sr.....it goes on and on.

Rhinocerous Surprise · June 2008

Abook 08!

Its Evolution Baby · June 2008

Abooks, You truly believe in your convictions and I admire that. But the problem with debating you is you pull other threads and conversations you have had on subjects into it and I can't compete with that.

All I can say is that I think you are buying a little to much into the Anti Obama machine that is warping your view of the man. I hope he ends up proving you wrong.

I leave you with this. You said he supports No Child Left Behind here is what I found: http://www.timeforkids.com/TFK/kids08/

Democratic candidates:

Barack Obama -- Senator Barack Obama says that teachers lack the resources to educate their students. He said that the teachers could do an awesome job educating our children if the teachers are paid a good salary and provided with necessary tools. He promises to increase the amount of salary that is being paid to them. Senator Obama plans to continue the current "No Child Left Behind" policy, although he believes that the law has significant flaws, which must be corrected.

VS.

John McCain-- While No Child Left Behind targets the structure of education, it does not address the underlying cultural problems in our education system--a system that still seeks to avoid genuine accountability and responsibility for producing well-educated children. We must place parents and children at the center of the education process, empowering parents by greatly expanding the ability of parents to choose among schools for their children. All federal financial support must be predicated on providing parents the ability to move their children, and the dollars associated with them, from failing schools.

Abookamongstthemany · June 2008

Its Evolution Baby wrote:

Abooks, You truly believe in your convictions and I admire that. But the problem with debating you is you pull other threads and conversations you have had on subjects into it and I can't compete with that.

All I can say is that I think you are buying a little to much into the Anti Obama machine that is warping your view of the man. I hope he ends up proving you wrong.

I leave you with this. You said he supports No Child Left Behind here is what I found: http://www.timeforkids.com/TFK/kids08/

Democratic candidates:

Barack Obama -- Senator Barack Obama says that teachers lack the resources to educate their students. He said that the teachers could do an awesome job educating our children if the teachers are paid a good salary and provided with necessary tools. He promises to increase the amount of salary that is being paid to them. Senator Obama plans to continue the current "No Child Left Behind" policy, although he believes that the law has significant flaws, which must be corrected.

VS.

John McCain-- While No Child Left Behind targets the structure of education, it does not address the underlying cultural problems in our education system--a system that still seeks to avoid genuine accountability and responsibility for producing well-educated children. We must place parents and children at the center of the education process, empowering parents by greatly expanding the ability of parents to choose among schools for their children. All federal financial support must be predicated on providing parents the ability to move their children, and the dollars associated with them, from failing schools.

I pull those other threads in because I've made these points so many times here that I feel they start to lose potency by repeating myself over and over again.

I'm only judging Obama on his own record, votes, time spent in office and words.....if all of that is the Anti-Obama machine, then what is that saying exactly?

And there's another choice to be had:

http://www.ontheissues.org/Celeb/Ralph_Nader_Education.htm

kenny olav · June 2008

Matt Gonzalez is a very smart, very passionate guy. He was very close to being elected major of San Francisco a few years ago, which would have been freakin awesome. He could win next time. I think guys like him and Nader should stick to local elections.

I don't think there's any way to change Washington D.C. It has too much money and power, and it's a corruption magnet. A country this big shouldn't be ruled by a few hundred people. I really doubt I'm going to vote for Presidential candidate this year, and even if I do, it won't be worth even half a penny. I think I'm voting for "NO PRESIDENT" or no "NO FEDS" or something like that. I'm focusing on secession movements from now on, even though that's only slightly less quixotic.

Abookamongstthemany · June 2008

Kenny Olav wrote:

Matt Gonzalez is a very smart, very passionate guy. He was very close to being elected major of San Francisco a few years ago, which would have been freakin awesome. He could win next time. I think guys like him and Nader should stick to local elections.

I don't think there's any way to change Washington D.C. It has too much money and power, and it's a corruption magnet. A country this big shouldn't be ruled by a few hundred people. I really doubt I'm going to vote for Presidential candidate this year, and even if I do, it won't be worth even half a penny. I think I'm voting for "NO PRESIDENT" or no "NO FEDS" or something like that. I'm focusing on secession movements from now on, even though that's only slightly less quixotic.

You do realize that if the 2 major parties had no strong opposition like Nader, Gonzalez or whomever they would have nothing getting in the way of their further corruption pandering to corruption. Also they'd have no reason to even worry about anyone keeping them honest or giving the people other options outside of their slim platforms.

Why shouldn't they run in national elections where all the exposure and attention is?

flywallyfly · June 2008

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

You do realize that if the 2 major parties had no strong opposition like Nader, Gonzalez or whomever they would have nothing getting in the way of their further corruption pandering to corruption. Also they'd have no reason to even worry about anyone keeping them honest or giving the people other options outside of their slim platforms.

Strong opposition like Nader? He barely has a pulse in polls. The other candidates wont even talk to/about the guy and according to people such as yourself Nader gets no media exposure. Most of this country probably couldnt tell you that Nader was running . So how exactly is Nader getting in their way of further corruption? The only thing he is getting in the way of is the lines at Ben and Jerry's where he holds his huge rallies.

Abookamongstthemany · June 2008

flywallyfly wrote:

Strong opposition like Nader? He barely has a pulse in polls. The other candidates wont even talk to/about the guy and according to people such as yourself Nader gets no media exposure. Most of this country probably couldnt tell you that Nader was running . So how exactly is Nader getting in their way of further corruption? The only thing he is getting in the way of is the lines at Ben and Jerry's where he holds his huge rallies.

Because he offers us a choice, works extremely hard on holding our politicians accountable, has started a watchdog group that is focuses directly on Congress, has decades of service and accomplishments doing just that....providing a strong opposition to the status quo.

The last election he really didn't make a splash but the post 9/11 fear climate has finally started to fade and people are looking elsewhere again....like Ron Paul. Nader might not get the kinda of support Paul currently is these days but I agree with his views much more so than Paul's thus Nader
gets my support and vote.

flywallyfly · June 2008

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

Because he offers us a choice, works extremely hard on holding pour politicians accountable, has started a watchdog group that is focuses directly on Congress, has decades of service and accomplishments doing just that....providing a strong opposition to the status quo.

The last election he really didn't make a splash but the post 9/11 fear climate has finally started to fade and people are looking elsewhere again....like Ron Paul. Nader might not get the kinda of support Paul currently is these days but I agree with his views much more so than Paul's thus Nader
gets my support and vote.

Fair enough answer.

decides2dream · June 2008

]

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

Good thing I was just answering a post on my way out the door to run an errand and it wasn't my platform on which I was running for president.

it was still damn funny tho, at least to me.

as to the rest...i'll leave that circular debate alone for a good rest.

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

You do realize that if the 2 major parties had no strong opposition like Nader, Gonzalez or whomever they would have nothing getting in the way of their further corruption pandering to corruption. Also they'd have no reason to even worry about anyone keeping them honest or giving the people other options outside of their slim platforms.

Why shouldn't they run in national elections where all the exposure and attention is?

i agree with your post EXCEPT for the part i bolded. while i know you truly and passionately support nader, and kudos for follwing your ideals like that....but do you in all honestly believe he is "STRONG oppostion"......? while sure, yes, technically he IS opposition, i do not think many would use the descriptor of 'strong' in front of that.

i would LOVE to see STRONG opposition against the 2 major parties for the mere principle of it, and even BETTER...to actually see a candidate with strong opposition to them, along with strong #s and the possibility of WINNING, and darei say it? ACTUALLY winning! :eek: . THAT would be some damn fine positive change.

i do believe it can happen...and it will be most interesting to see if such occurs, how much, or not...things change.

Abookamongstthemany · June 2008

decides2dream wrote:

]

it was still damn funny tho, at least to me.
as to the rest...i'll leave that circular debate alone for a good rest.

Oh and I posted some links a bit later to other threads and posts where I went into FAR more detail in the past in...no need to keep repeating myself.

decides2dream wrote:

]

i agree with your post EXCEPT for the part i bolded. while i know you truly and passionately support nader, and kudos for follwing your ideals like that....but do you in all honestly believe he is "STRONG oppostion"......? while sure, yes, technically he IS opposition, i do not think many would use the descriptor of 'strong' in front of that.

i would LOVE to see STRONG opposition against the 2 major parties for the mere principle of it, and even BETTER...to actually see a candidate with strong opposition to them, along with strong #s and the possibility of WINNING, and darei say it? ACTUALLY winning! :eek: . THAT would be some damn fine positive change. i do believe it can happen...and it will be most interesting to see if such occurs, how much, or not...things change.

It will never happen if people keep waiting for others to make someone suddenly 'strong opposition' or 'have a chance at winning'.

For that to ever happen people would have to start getting behind him BEFORE he had a chance at winning. The numbers just aren't going to appear out of thin air and toooooo many are using this 'he's not viable' excuse to ever get there at this point.

Why should I vote for Nader

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