Why should I vote for Nader
Strangest Tribe
Posts: 2,502
From those of you still supporting Nader after 8 years of decreasing popularity.
Why should I risk my vote?
How would Nader change anything with no congressional support?
How can he honestly make any changes?
Why should I risk my vote?
How would Nader change anything with no congressional support?
How can he honestly make any changes?
the Minions
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments
Based on that - do you see either Obama or McCain truly enacting that change?
More importantly do you see Obama or McCain wanting that change?
That should answer your questions
"Risk my vote"?? Do you mean, how can I make sure I pick a winner? If your goal is to pick the eventual winner so you can say you guessed right, then definitely don't pick Nader. But if your principles tell you that Nader is most closely aligned with your beliefs, you should always vote your principles.
Voting for the person that mostly reflects your opinions and beliefs is a good thing...however, I too can see value in voting for someone who you agree with to a lesser extent if it helps make sure a person you agree wth a lot is not elected...if that make sense.
Both arguments make sense, to me.
I totally get that argument, my only issue with it is that we end up with races between dumb & dumber. If we'd actually vote our principles I think we'd eventually see real messages getting sent to the parties. Instead, everyone compromises their principles and votes for the least detestable major party canididate. It only encourages parties to continue to put up inadequate candidates, knowing we'll vote for them.
At some point I'd like to see that cycle broken, but it isn't going to happen by settling for the guy who isn't as bad as that other guy.
If no one makes a stink, they won't pay attention. For instance, the republican party has essentially abandoned economic principle to adopt moral control as thier direction because the loud voting moonbats of this country in that party are the loudest voice. There aren't a lot of people who even understand economics so there aren't a lot of people who vote on them.
Voting for Nader won't change a damn thing in this election, but for that matter neither will casting your vote for Obama or McCain. Voting 3rd party is the only way to decrease the percantage of vote going to the Oligarchy.... and increase the attention paid to issues which haven't been addressed thoroughly.
Basically, if you don't... who will?
My reason for thinking this way is the in my opinion shortsighted finality that if so and so wins this election we are doomed. If that's the case we've been doomed the entire modern era. I don't think any one round of presidents or congressmen will lead to ruin, however years and years of bad policy will. So in that sense, to me it makes absolutely no sense to continue status quo when the machine is clearly broken and needs to be audited, examined and fixed. I'm sure it's happened plenty of times in our history where many in the public felt there was no really good canidate and the US was going to shit. If you feel that way it's kind of your civic duty to vote your principals and do what you can to save what you feel is good about hte country whatever that may be. Personally I don't feel that most people "continually" running for office do so for the good of the country. I don't really understand Ralphs fight in this since except for the reasons of the above. Bob Barr to me is a self aggrandizing ass but so are most canidates who espouse to actually WANT one of the most powerful and influential jobs in the world.. I don't quite know Ralph as well and he's a lawyer so there's probably a bit of that to him as well, but in his stead, he did do quite a bit to steer the country in the right direction when it comes to auto safety and that's probably what he's trying to do with the election process.
Personally I think shrinking the size scope and dependance on the Federal government is to the betterment of all, but that's just my opinion.
Understand...and I agree. Like I said, I see both sides of this one. If you never go out on a limb for the "fringe" candidate, nothing changes...but if you do, nothing may still change and you've lost your influence over the current situation...tough decision.
However the constant Obama bashing by the Nader fans is getting really old and is making me turn against him much like 2000 when I turned against Nader for all of the Gore bashing. Look what that got us...
6/7/2003 (***1/2)
7/9/2006 (****1/2)
7/13/2006 (**** )
4/10/2008 EV Solo (****1/2)
6/25/2008 MSG II (*****)
10/1/2009 LA II (****)
10/6/2009 LA III (***** Cornell!!!)
Well, I just think that saying Obama won't change anything would be as stupid to believe as stepping back to 2000 and saying Bush wouldn't change anything. We all know where that led.
Obama is at the "say whatever to get elected" stage of his campaign.
I think too much is being read into the Iran nuke issue. Obama can't come out and say that he's for Iran on any issue, so he's going to pander these issues or side-step them until November.
He can't afford to lose the liberal Jewish vote especially if McCain selects Lieberman for a running mate.
Anti-War Obama supporters have to take a step of faith with this thought.
Voting for Nader is a blind leap of faith that gets us nowhere because if McCain gets President the same way Bush did in 2000 we are totally fucked again by the "idealists"
So people who have no faith in Obama's policies just have to get over it, but people who have no faith in Nader are right?
Bashing?
It's called criticism and it's vital in a healthy democracy. If everyone was doing the same and holding our politicians accountable for the crap they try to pull then we wouldn't be in the fucking mess we currently are. But as we stands, we keep recieving from our leaders exactly what we(as a whole) deserve.
People are going to speak out about things they see as problems in these candidates. I don't know what to tell you if you weren't expecting this or can't handle it. But I think it's it's extremely telling that you would rather people not be extremely critical of Obama. Could you share with me the reason behind that?
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
how's that, by thousands of ppl being prevented from voting b/c a list said they committed a crime in the future? by the supreme court overruling state law that said there had to be a recount?
it's been posted so many times, but you're aware ever single 3rd party candidate received more votes than the difference between bush and gore in florida?
and didn't more repbulicans vote for nader than democrats in florida w/ a large chunk saying if nader wasn't on the ballot they would've voted for another 3rd party candidate or not at all?
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
cross the river to the eastside
Yes, he brought upon change. Nader got some very important issues into the public arena, gained tons support for his causes, showed exactly how our elections and debates are a sham with no real choices allowed to compete effectively and he gave millions a choice...someone to get behind that represented their ideals when otherwise they didn't have that choice and were left feeling shut out of the system and apathetic that anyone is willing to fight against the odds to rail against all the problems/corruption that plague our government.
They way things are currently being ran is simply not good enough for many of us. And we're tired of just playing along and shrugging because we believe our country can do much better and we aren't content to settle for what we view as mediocrity anymore. To me that IS the problem...not it's certainly not fixing anything by settling for it year after year.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
very important issues into the public arena, like what and how?
sure he showed he was another choice by running, but my question was what impact did that have. it's obvious he's another choice---how did that change our system?
cross the river to the eastside
No
Obama can be our next president. Not Nader, not a chance that's just the facts...
Until a third party can grow and show up in non-election years, I'm going to stop sending them money... after 2000 when the Greens were riding a wave of popularity they got wishy-washy, Nader got flakey...they couldn't gel...the wheels fell off... they cancelled fund raisers... didn't pursue ballots in certain states....
I was on the list of volunteers but never called. I sent them $25 a month for 3 years, then they stopped sending me the newsletter...
so fuck' em... I love their ideas... but they lack critical organization... I think they should stop all the pot smoking and get their shit together.
man if that first paragrpah were written about obama by another poster.....you'd call fowl and say it's far too vague.
i agree though on the last paragraph, i think many feel the same way. however, even within the confines of that....many do not see nader as the answer to that, not think that the candidate they may choose to vote for is a form of 'settling.' things are horrific right now and absolutely we cannot settle. just how and why and who you choose to start to implement such may differ according to your own pov and assesssment of the situation.
it's a circular arguement after awhile really...with some saying if you abandon your ideals you are settling - which i do agree....others saying if you do such knowing your candidate will never win no change will actually get to occur...which i also agree. so really, that's IT. how does a candidate outside of the 2 parties get elected? elsewhere i think someone mentioned ross perot as getting the 'closest' which is kinda scary
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
ha, YEAH
ross perot had the cash to buy airtime, which probably had a lot to do with his appeal. people got to see him talk with his charts and all. sadly it's so dependent on money. so in order to get other people in the running we'll have to fix our campaign system.
CHANGE is coming, d2d
cross the river to the eastside
maybe that's where we TRULY need to START. it should NOT be dependent on money to run an effective campaign, to be heard. i understand parameters and such...but there really has to be a better and more fair way so that ALL may be heard, and given equal weight and opportunity, so that the average citizen could truly look at all candidates as serious contenders. and yes....i'd personally like to see more 3rd parties with CHOPS, give the major two parties a run for dominance, and not to be viewed as 'fringe'....i think it DOES make a difference. unless of course someone can actually come up with a better political system sans parties all together...whoa.....but yea.....until then, we need to at least get started!
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
Good thing I was just answering a post on my way out the door to run an errand and it wasn't my platform on which I was running for president.
Basically it comes down to our current system being corrupt and not working for the people. If you see huge problems that keep reoccurring year after year then you don't want to support more of that happening. You want to stop that cycle on go out on a limb and try for something different....a new approach because this old one is shit. Many of us see Obama as more of that same problematic system that is corrupt and ineffectual and have pointed out many good reasons for thinking so. We won't be supporting him...we'll be voting for whomever it is that we believe would bring the change we'd like to see to the office.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
I am willing to bet if you sit Obama and Nader down and go over there beliefs you will find that Obama is closer to Nader then McCain.
6/7/2003 (***1/2)
7/9/2006 (****1/2)
7/13/2006 (**** )
4/10/2008 EV Solo (****1/2)
6/25/2008 MSG II (*****)
10/1/2009 LA II (****)
10/6/2009 LA III (***** Cornell!!!)
Then show me some issues that they are the same on since you believe this enough to bet on it.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
I've posted a lot so I'll just link you. All these threads and links iuncluded in them explain why it is so important to have people like Nader out there and how his influence leads to progress.
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=284044
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=276122
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=274637
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=283292
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=282240
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=282095
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=277926
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=277974
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Theres to much propaganda floating out there to know what is real or not these days. I would like to see them talk and debate is all.
But here is some interesting reading...
http://redwoodreality.blogspot.com/2008/02/nader-vs-obama.html
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/02/25/7274/
This one doesn't really apply but interesting opinion piece...
http://www.slate.com/id/2185614/
http://www.counterpunch.org/lindorff04142008.html
http://governmentdirt.com/third_parties_are_always_the_answer_the_nader_campaign
Here's an interesting one on Nader being Anti Israel:
http://njjewishnews.com/justASC/2008/02/25/suddenly-naders-an-obama-maven/
6/7/2003 (***1/2)
7/9/2006 (****1/2)
7/13/2006 (**** )
4/10/2008 EV Solo (****1/2)
6/25/2008 MSG II (*****)
10/1/2009 LA II (****)
10/6/2009 LA III (***** Cornell!!!)
I would ABSOLUTELY LOVE to see them debate, as well. Then you would really see just how different Nader's ideas are from that of McCain and Obama.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=MyvVQYf6XWk
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
What i don't get is that all of the Republicans criticize Obama for being voted the most liberal senator in the senate yet hes closer to McCain then Nader????
I have yet to see one article where Nader himself says Obama is the same as McCain. I would love to hear it come out of Nader's mouth because I don't think he believes it. I think he is more upset that Obama is moving away from Nader's ideals to get elected. AND THAT IS A VERY FAIR CRITIQUE.
However I believe all Presidential candidates who have a prayer of being elected have to pander to the general public, and not the fringes. There is a very good chance that Obama would be the most liberal president since JFK. But I guess that is still not good enough for the far left.
6/7/2003 (***1/2)
7/9/2006 (****1/2)
7/13/2006 (**** )
4/10/2008 EV Solo (****1/2)
6/25/2008 MSG II (*****)
10/1/2009 LA II (****)
10/6/2009 LA III (***** Cornell!!!)
because they are full of shit and want to smear him in any way they think will stick. That question is easy enough.
I have. I've seen plenty of facts he has brought to light that show just how much their platforms are alike, especially in comparison to Nader's
That's just it. Both parties are much further to the right on the issues than what the public is polling at. Roland posted a great interview from Chomsky pointing out just that. The general public overwhelming poll towards wanting a single payer UHC system, they poll at wanting to decrease the scope and budget of the defense sector and putting the tax money back into our social programs which are dying, they poll at viewing BOTH parties as being corrupt and not trusting them, they poll at wanting to decrease corporate welfare and so on....The two parties do not represent the views of America but rather they represent the corporate interests that fund them and throw the people little bones here and there to make it seem like they are actually doing something.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
http://www.npr.org/blogs/news/2008/01/obama_ranked_most_liberal_sena_1.html
Reported by NPR.
I would love to take your word but please show me Nader comparing Obama and his policies to McCain. I don't want generic Democrat vs. Republican vs. Nader BS. I want a quote where he really rips into Obama. I have searched all day at the risk of being fired and I have not found anything. So perhaps you could help me out.
Obama is for an increase in social programs. That is another critique from Repulicans is that hes going to raise the taxes to fund it. He also wants troops home from Iraq as soon as possible even if advised against it by Petreus. Obama will get us closer to a UHC system then we ever have had before. McCain wants no part of it. I'm just not buying it that McCain and Obama are the same. If Democrats and Republicans are the same then why all the hate between the two parties???
6/7/2003 (***1/2)
7/9/2006 (****1/2)
7/13/2006 (**** )
4/10/2008 EV Solo (****1/2)
6/25/2008 MSG II (*****)
10/1/2009 LA II (****)
10/6/2009 LA III (***** Cornell!!!)
We already discussed this article and what I thought of it.
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=275592
and there's this
http://counterpunch.org/colby02262008.html
I'd like to first mention how ironic it is for you to ask me for info when you clearly couldn't find the info on how Nader and Obama's platforms so much alike so much so that you'd bet on it.
stuff from Nader and his running mate Matt Gonzalez and others:
http://www.votenader.org/issues/
http://www.votenader.org/media/
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Fz7EkulVyHo
http://youtube.com/watch?v=fUTkg-zt6S8
http://blogs.usatoday.com/oped/2008/03/its-not-about-m.html#more
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=283448
http://beyondchron.org/news/index.php?itemid=5413#more
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=285579
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=286746
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NoN0ndnVWM
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=279530
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=277744
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=274906
It's all show. Tell me how things have changed in this country with either of these parties. They bicker over small topics while aligning on the huge ones.
Obama wants to continue with Bush's No Child Left Behind plan which is complete bullshit and only teaches children how to pass standardized tests. He wants to expand and increase the military PLUS build up social programs...which do you think will really get done? He supports and is funded by the nuclear power industry, big pharma, financial institutes who are involved in mountains of the very same predatory lending he claims to be against. He's voted to fund the war and re-authorize the Patriot Act twice. His foreign policy is very similar to McCain's. His healthcare plan is no change at all really...I think FFG actually pointed at that even McCain's plan involved more changing of the current system than Obama's. He won't even commit to having the troops out of Iraq by 2013...how is that different than McCain? He supports the use of Blackwater. He's said the first gulf war was just. He's said he admires the policies of Reagan and Bush Sr.....it goes on and on.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde