Mike Gravel is going to be the Next President.

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  • Vedd Hedd
    Vedd Hedd Posts: 4,633
    dontloseyourheat wrote:
    Do you have any idea how large the increase would be? It says that he would offset the tax with a rebate, I assume that if he eliminates the IRS and still has money to issue a rebate, the sales tax increase would have to be substantial.

    So people who need to buy food and clothes, and gas/tranportation to and from work, now have to wait to get a REBATE check in the mail in order to afford necessities?
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  • binauralonthecape
    binauralonthecape Posts: 257
    slightofjeff wrote:
    I don't know that much about it except: A) It would hit poor families harder than rich families; and B) It seems like a pain in the ass, what with having to wait on rebate checks every month and what not.

    anyway, not saying I'd be totally against it. But, on the surface, I don't see the draw.
    no, thats false, im actually pretty educated on the subject having read the book, and like the current tax code it hits rich people more than the poor, its, to put it in a broad term, a consumption tax, where you would be paying a national sales tax on every NEW item purchased, used items excluded...and whats the complication with rebate checks? seems simple enough to me, you get a monthly check to pay for your essential needs...and the only candidate that matters thats supporting it right now is mike huckabee, and its not a republican idea, its a libertarian idea...
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    ...i know all the rules but the rules do not know me, guaranteed...
  • macgyver06
    macgyver06 Posts: 2,500
    Vedd Hedd wrote:
    So you support tax breaks for the rich and the corporations.....and NOT For the working class poor or lower middle class?


    the national sales tax is not a tax break at all..i think your confusing it with this fair tax thing... they are not the same


    its a national sales tax

    and the description i used the other day is


    if you buy a 2000 dollar laptop you will pay a higher proportioned tax on it rather than the person who buys a 700 dollar laptop... its not just a flat 7 percent or 8 percent...


    the more you spend the more you are taxed.

    in 5 years we would see the debt going down
  • binauralonthecape
    binauralonthecape Posts: 257
    Vedd Hedd wrote:
    So people who need to buy food and clothes, and gas/tranportation to and from work, now have to wait to get a REBATE check in the mail in order to afford necessities?
    ....or you yourself can give the poor some money if you feel bad....
    8.29.00-4.29.03-4.30.03-5.2.03-7.2.03-7.3.03-7.8.03-7.9.03-7.11.03-9.28.04-9.29.04-10.1.04- 10.2.04-10.3.04-5.12.06-5.24.06-5.25.06
    ...i know all the rules but the rules do not know me, guaranteed...
  • slightofjeff
    slightofjeff Posts: 7,762
    Vedd Hedd wrote:
    So people who need to buy food and clothes, and gas/tranportation to and from work, now have to wait to get a REBATE check in the mail in order to afford necessities?

    Yeah. Like I said, sounds like a huge pain in the ass.

    Another question: Would a national sales tax eliminate state/local sales taxes? I don't think it would. So now we're paying sales tax on top of sales tax. A $2 gallon of milk becomes $6. Even if it all evens out by the fact that we no longer pay income taxes, good luck selling that to the public.
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  • Vedd Hedd
    Vedd Hedd Posts: 4,633
    For fun reading....


    granted this is from the people over at wikipedia....but it give you a bit of info.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FairTax
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  • dontloseyourheat
    dontloseyourheat Posts: 483
    Vedd Hedd wrote:
    So people who need to buy food and clothes, and gas/tranportation to and from work, now have to wait to get a REBATE check in the mail in order to afford necessities?

    I was legitimately asking if you knew how large the increase would be, I am not defending it. I'm not supporting Gravel, in fact I didn't start researching his policies until macgyver started all these threads.
    "Don't lose your inner heat...ever" - EV 5/13/06
  • slightofjeff
    slightofjeff Posts: 7,762
    macgyver06 wrote:
    the national sales tax is not a tax break at all..i think your confusing it with this fair tax thing... they are not the same


    its a national sales tax

    and the description i used the other day is


    if you buy a 2000 dollar laptop you will pay a higher proportioned tax on it rather than the person who buys a 700 dollar laptop... its not just a flat 7 percent or 8 percent...


    the more you spend the more you are taxed.

    in 5 years we would see the debt going down

    Another honest question: wouldn't this just kill consumption, which is pretty much the engine that drives the economy?
    everybody wants the most they can possibly get
    for the least they could possibly do
  • LikeAnOpeningBandForTheSun
    LikeAnOpeningBandForTheSun Posts: 6,097
    macgyver06 wrote:

    if you buy a 2000 dollar laptop you will pay a higher proportioned tax on it rather than the person who buys a 700 dollar laptop... its not just a flat 7 percent or 8 percent...

    wouldnt that further destroy the middle class and drive an even bigger wedge between the rich and poor? Only rich people would be able to afford top of the line shit, and the added taxes would cut out many middle income peeps. no companies would make top of the line stuff anymore, and innovation would cease. thats if they could afford to innovate if they wanted to, considering the gov't just severely reduced their income.
  • Vedd Hedd
    Vedd Hedd Posts: 4,633
    dontloseyourheat wrote:
    I was legitimately asking if you knew how large the increase would be, I am not defending it. I'm not supporting Gravel, in fact I didn't start researching his policies until macgyver started all these threads.


    Ok, fair enough.

    Yes, Mike Gravel supports a 20-25% National Sales tax.
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  • macgyver06
    macgyver06 Posts: 2,500
    Vedd Hedd wrote:
    So people who need to buy food and clothes, and gas/tranportation to and from work, now have to wait to get a REBATE check in the mail in order to afford necessities?

    NO.. NOT AT ALL

    this is a bonus to the plan...rather than doing tax write offs for education and employment related things..it would be done immediately... for example school supplies... you pay taxes at the time of transaction (school supplies arent going to be taxed at a higher proportion because they are relatively cheap) you will be refunded monthly on these items. keep in mind...this is not where the majority of tax money will be generating from anyway.. it will be Automobiles, Homes, Computers big ticket items.
  • Vedd Hedd
    Vedd Hedd Posts: 4,633
    slightofjeff wrote:
    Yeah. Like I said, sounds like a huge pain in the ass.

    Another question: Would a national sales tax eliminate state/local sales taxes? I don't think it would. So now we're paying sales tax on top of sales tax. A $2 gallon of milk becomes $6. Even if it all evens out by the fact that we no longer pay income taxes, good luck selling that to the public.

    Thats correct.

    And not to mention the fact that it would create a black market of sorts where things would be sold illegally to avoid taxation.

    Not to mention it would kill tourism.

    Why would someone want to come to America to buy Chinese made goods for 20-25% higher.
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  • binauralonthecape
    binauralonthecape Posts: 257
    the fair tax would be a 23% sales tax on every new item you buy, i know that sounds extremely high, but the actual cost of everything would be the same because there are already embedded taxes in the cost of everything we buy, the fair tax would eliminate the irs, and support business growth, you would get your full pay check each week and spend your money as you see fit, no taxes, no entitlement programs ( social security, medicare ) that you would have to pay into anymore..
    8.29.00-4.29.03-4.30.03-5.2.03-7.2.03-7.3.03-7.8.03-7.9.03-7.11.03-9.28.04-9.29.04-10.1.04- 10.2.04-10.3.04-5.12.06-5.24.06-5.25.06
    ...i know all the rules but the rules do not know me, guaranteed...
  • Vedd Hedd
    Vedd Hedd Posts: 4,633
    macgyver06 wrote:
    NO.. NOT AT ALL

    this is a bonus to the plan...rather than doing tax write offs for education and employment related things..it would be done immediately... for example school supplies... you pay taxes at the time of transaction (school supplies arent going to be taxed at a higher proportion because they are relatively cheap) you will be refunded monthly on these items. keep in mind...this is not where the majority of tax money will be generating from anyway.. it will be Automobiles, Homes, Computers big ticket items.

    Thats not true. It would affect all goods.

    Nowhere have I read anything that you are suggesting.
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  • macgyver06
    macgyver06 Posts: 2,500
    MrSmith wrote:
    wouldnt that further destroy the middle class and drive an even bigger wedge between the rich and poor? Only rich people would be able to afford top of the line shit, and the added taxes would cut out many middle income peeps.



    absolutely not. if someone buys a hummer...they are going to be paying a lot more taxes on it than someone who buys a ford focus... the pool of tax money taken from both these car sales go into the entire tax fund... the guy who buys the hummer has just contributed more to the tax pool and HE SHOULD!
  • binauralonthecape
    binauralonthecape Posts: 257
    slightofjeff wrote:
    Yeah. Like I said, sounds like a huge pain in the ass.

    Another question: Would a national sales tax eliminate state/local sales taxes? I don't think it would. So now we're paying sales tax on top of sales tax. A $2 gallon of milk becomes $6. Even if it all evens out by the fact that we no longer pay income taxes, good luck selling that to the public.
    no everything would cost the same..
    8.29.00-4.29.03-4.30.03-5.2.03-7.2.03-7.3.03-7.8.03-7.9.03-7.11.03-9.28.04-9.29.04-10.1.04- 10.2.04-10.3.04-5.12.06-5.24.06-5.25.06
    ...i know all the rules but the rules do not know me, guaranteed...
  • Vedd Hedd
    Vedd Hedd Posts: 4,633
    binauralonthecape wrote:
    the fair tax would be a 23% sales tax on every new item you buy, i know that sounds extremely high, but the actual cost of everything would be the same because there are already embedded taxes in the cost of everything we buy, the fair tax would eliminate the irs, and support business growth, you would get your full pay check each week and spend your money as you see fit, no taxes, no entitlement programs ( social security, medicare ) that you would have to pay into anymore..

    Again...extremely republican....which is fine if thats your thing. Many people are in favor of that. Im just pointing out Gravels stance on it.
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  • macgyver06
    macgyver06 Posts: 2,500
    slightofjeff wrote:
    Yeah. Like I said, sounds like a huge pain in the ass.

    Another question: Would a national sales tax eliminate state/local sales taxes? I don't think it would. So now we're paying sales tax on top of sales tax. A $2 gallon of milk becomes $6. Even if it all evens out by the fact that we no longer pay income taxes, good luck selling that to the public.


    it replaces your income tax...now you would be paying a national sales tax.. it benefits the wise and modest. THE MAJORITY IN THIS COUNTRY
  • Vedd Hedd
    Vedd Hedd Posts: 4,633
    macgyver06 wrote:
    absolutely not. if someone buys a hummer...they are going to be paying a lot more taxes on it than someone who buys a ford focus... the pool of tax money taken from both these car sales go into the entire tax fund... the guy who buys the hummer has just contributed more to the tax pool and HE SHOULD!

    Basic food will still cost 23% more.

    But the poor, who dont pay income tax, won t get increased paychecks
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  • macgyver06
    macgyver06 Posts: 2,500
    i think this is hard for people to grasp because some have never been without an income tax. There will be more money in the tax pool with this plan and you will be getting EVERYTHING YOU EARN... its up to you how you spend it... you can buy a mansion and 4 hummers if you want...but you will be paying more immediate taxes than someone who doesnt need these things

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