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Mike Gravel offers...

macgyver06macgyver06 Posts: 2,500
edited April 2008 in A Moving Train
an immediate withdrawal of all U.S. troops from Iraq.

EVERY SINGLE TROOP
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • ledveddermanledvedderman Posts: 7,761
    So we go in and blow up their infrastructure, put in a government that isn't worth shit, cause civil unrest through the whole country, and then just leave in the dark of the night?

    I want this war to end as much as the next person, but there are more responsible options instead of throwing the Iraqi people under the bus for something they had nothing to do with.
    E8toX.gif

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  • macgyver06macgyver06 Posts: 2,500
    ledvedderman wrote:
    So we go in and blow up their infrastructure, put in a government that isn't worth shit, cause civil unrest through the whole country, and then just leave in the dark of the night?

    I want this war to end as much as the next person, but there are more responsible options instead of throwing the Iraqi people under the bus for something they had nothing to do with.


    listen. you cannot give people freedom... you can only take it away.. they have to fight for themselves... more of our soldiers dying and British soldiers dying is a waste of life... history is being written in disillusionment!

    we go invade Iraq on false premises... we take out their leader... we blow up their infrastructure.. we prolong the civil unrest in the country that has been in the works for years upon years upon hundreds of years... and we introduce a government that will ultimately destroy the peaceful int he region... than we vanish... we take very single troop out of that hell of a country... its 130 degrees and blowing sand... there are bombs that cannot and will not EVER BE SEEN... our troops are not getting shot and they are not losing battles... they are waiting around for sandmen to blow the shit out of them while they sleep eat and walk around someone elses country.

    its now or later... they can be home by February (executive order) or they can wait to meet their deaths... they can't stop whats coming.

    and you sheep cant stop following the latest headlines which time and time again are proving to be false... how many lies must you swallow?
  • macgyver06macgyver06 Posts: 2,500
    ledvedderman wrote:
    So we go in and blow up their infrastructure, put in a government that isn't worth shit, cause civil unrest through the whole country, and then just leave in the dark of the night?

    I want this war to end as much as the next person, but there are more responsible options instead of throwing the Iraqi people under the bus for something they had nothing to do with.


    how can you say you care about the ending of a war you dont even understand on your own yet.
  • macgyver06macgyver06 Posts: 2,500
    people defending their land don't give a shit about your country and its politics... is that so hard to grasp...
  • ledveddermanledvedderman Posts: 7,761
    macgyver06 wrote:
    listen. you cannot give people freedom... you can only take it away.. they have to fight for themselves... more of our soldiers dying and British soldiers dying is a waste of life... history is being written in disillusionment!

    we go invade Iraq on false premises... we take out their leader... we blow up their infrastructure.. we prolong the civil unrest in the country that has been in the works for years upon years upon hundreds of years... and we introduce a government that will ultimately destroy the peaceful int he region... than we vanish... we take very single troop out of that hell of a country... its 130 degrees and blowing sand... there are bombs that cannot and will not EVER BE SEEN... our troops are not getting shot and they are not losing battles... they are waiting around for sandmen to blow the shit out of them while they sleep eat and walk around someone elses country.

    its now or later... they can be home by February (executive order) or they can wait to meet their deaths... they can't stop whats coming.

    and you sheep cant stop following the latest headlines which time and time again are proving to be false... how many lies must you swallow?

    1) I agree with the VAST majority of your post.

    2) What lies am I swallowing and how am I being a sheep? I have a personal belief that since we started this problem we have to be very careful in how we get out. You don't knock a girl up and leave her when she's seven months along because you're tired of dealing with her mood swings. That would be a douchebag move. Anything other than a phased withdrawl would be a douchebag move on our part.

    I want all of our troops home tomorrow, but if we leave like Gravel proposes, we'll be back there in no time because of the genocide that would take place eventually.
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  • macgyver06macgyver06 Posts: 2,500
    ledvedderman wrote:
    1) I agree with the VAST majority of your post.

    2) What lies am I swallowing and how am I being a sheep? I have a personal belief that since we started this problem we have to be very careful in how we get out. You don't knock a girl up and leave her when she's seven months along because you're tired of dealing with her mood swings. That would be a douchebag move. Anything other than a phased withdrawl would be a douchebag move on our part.

    I want all of our troops home tomorrow, but if we leave like Gravel proposes, we'll be back there in no time because of the genocide that would take place eventually.


    what genocide? who told you this??


    also

    who are you trying to impress ...who is the U.S. trying to impress by saying...hey look... we are here till we are all dead... what country is impressed by this occupation... name one country we should be bowing to... all this talk about being a uper power and a leader seems like bullshit when we are constantly making decisions seemingly with other ''super powers'' other leaders in mind... who are we trying to impress... it makes no sense.. we could be saving lives... we could be building a defense... instead we are building a pipeline which we will hand controls over to a ridiculous country...

    the whole thing is about money.. and now they have convinced the citizens that leaving at once is the cowardly thing to do....

    its unbelievaaaaaaaaaaaaableeee.... the same guys who told you that iraq (who didnt have war planes) had wmds are now telling you that an immediate withddrawal is the cowardly act...


    lllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllooooooooooooooooooooooooooollllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll


    you deserve barack obama
  • ledveddermanledvedderman Posts: 7,761
    macgyver06 wrote:
    people defending their land don't give a shit about your country and its politics... is that so hard to grasp...

    Again, I don't want to pressure our form of anything on them. I just think anything other than a phased withdrawl is a bad move on our part.
    E8toX.gif

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  • macgyver06macgyver06 Posts: 2,500
    ledvedderman wrote:
    Again, I don't want to pressure our form of anything on them. I just think anything other than a phased withdrawl is a bad move on our part.


    ok so you made it a point in saying you think we just have a phased withdrawal... since this liek all other government statements is veeeeeeeeeeeeery vague



    who goes first??? the guys defending the pipeline... the guys escorting oil tankers... the guys escorting consultants and engineers?? the guys in the green zone that take mortar rounds and rpgs and random grenade attacks.... the guys going to villages trying to get information from shiites and sunnis and getting nowehere because they dont cooperate... the marines laying in the sand with sniper rifles looking for suspicious and routine behavior.


    if you care so much about the people liekw e alllll sayyy we dooo...


    why not round these people up and bring them here???


    ahhahahahaa


    wait wait wait



    lemme guess....




    they would take our jobs :)


    false sympathy... is their a pill in this country for that?
  • macgyver06macgyver06 Posts: 2,500
    sorry if i sound like an ass... it gets tiring hearing the same ridiculous statements over and over and over again

    and these candidates are actually gonna get votes for this...


    its funny to me...
  • ledveddermanledvedderman Posts: 7,761
    macgyver06 wrote:
    what genocide? who told you this??


    also

    who are you trying to impress ...who is the U.S. trying to impress by saying...hey look... we are here till we are all dead... what country is impressed by this occupation... name one country we should be bowing to... all this talk about being a uper power and a leader seems like bullshit when we are constantly making decisions seemingly with other ''super powers'' other leaders in mind... who are we trying to impress... it makes no sense.. we could be saving lives... we could be building a defense... instead we are building a pipeline which we will hand controls over to a ridiculous country...

    the whole thing is about money.. and now they have convinced the citizens that leaving at once is the cowardly thing to do....

    its unbelievaaaaaaaaaaaaableeee.... the same guys who told you that iraq (who didnt have war planes) had wmds are now telling you that an immediate withddrawal is the cowardly act...


    lllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllooooooooooooooooooooooooooollllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll


    you deserve barack obama

    This has nothing to do with any other nations or trying to impress them.

    What part about leaving a country overnight that we have put into a state of disarray, on the brinks of a full blown civil war, and with no stable government in place makes sense to you?
    E8toX.gif

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  • macgyver06macgyver06 Posts: 2,500
    ledvedderman wrote:
    This has nothing to do with any other nations or trying to impress them.

    What part about leaving a country overnight that we have put into a state of disarray, on the brinks of a full blown civil war, and with no stable government in place makes sense to you?



    civil war??? can you elaborate.. you think the war is between whom... the Shiites and the Sunnis?
  • fragileblakefragileblake Posts: 716
    If my Grandpa was president he would do the same thing. Lets start threads about him!
    http://blakepnw.blogspot.com/
  • ledveddermanledvedderman Posts: 7,761
    macgyver06 wrote:
    sorry if i sound like an ass... it gets tiring hearing the same ridiculous statements over and over and over again

    and these candidates are actually gonna get votes for this...


    its funny to me...

    You do sound like an ass. You have the thought in your head that anyone who wants a phased withdrawl is on the same page as the neo-cons and only cares about making money in Iraq.

    That isn't the case at all. I feel this way because we owe it to the Iraqi (not the corps making profits) people to see this through and ensure that there is at least some security in their country that we fucked up royally.
    E8toX.gif

    http://www.reverbnation.com/brianzilm
  • macgyver06macgyver06 Posts: 2,500
    wherever you get your news.. and whomever you get your news from .. im hoping you remember how much they knew about this region before the war started and why everyone was in awe when the tanks moved through the deserts unopposed.


    they get their information on the fly

    so coming to an argument with opinions on top of opinions i think is foolish when you look at the regions history and stability over thousands of years.
  • macgyver06macgyver06 Posts: 2,500
    ledvedderman wrote:
    You do sound like an ass. You have the thought in your head that anyone who wants a phased withdrawl is on the same page as the neo-cons and only cares about making money in Iraq.

    That isn't the case at all. I feel this way because we owe it to the Iraqi (not the corps making profits) people to see this through and ensure that there is at least some security in their country that we fucked up royally.



    we did not fuck their country up. thats absurd.
  • macgyver06macgyver06 Posts: 2,500
    ledvedderman wrote:
    You do sound like an ass. You have the thought in your head that anyone who wants a phased withdrawl is on the same page as the neo-cons and only cares about making money in Iraq.

    That isn't the case at all. I feel this way because we owe it to the Iraqi (not the corps making profits) people to see this through and ensure that there is at least some security in their country that we fucked up royally.


    i wish i had the luxury of picking and choosing which one of your points to attack like you do with mine... but im looking for truth... you claim to have found the best way... and i question why is your opinions and everyone elses opinions change and form with media information and new ideas... and why in 3 months no one will be talking about phased withdrawals anymore...
  • ledveddermanledvedderman Posts: 7,761
    macgyver06 wrote:
    civil war??? can you elaborate.. you think the war is between whom... the Shiites and the Sunnis?

    If you don't believe that Iraq is going to fall into a state of civil war than you're crazy. The Shiite dominated government is the biggest threat to Iraq without question.
    E8toX.gif

    http://www.reverbnation.com/brianzilm
  • macgyver06macgyver06 Posts: 2,500
    ledvedderman wrote:
    If you don't believe that Iraq is going to fall into a state of civil war than you're crazy. The Shiite dominated government is the biggest threat to Iraq without question.



    their and your war prophecies do not scare me. I read numbers, facts and history of the country and see patterns... i look at our history, our rhetoric... our facts and see patterns...

    I dont understand your motivations, i dont understand what our governement expects to gain from the continuation of this..


    no one can seem to answer that...


    why is it the case?


    this is what we are looking at if i were to only get my news from fox and other TV MEDIA


    Hussein funds terrorists so he is part of the problem
    Iraq has WMDS
    Iraq is now MOving the WMDs.. look at these pictures and footage
    Iraq won't let our inpectors in (they did)
    Iraq is hiding the WMDS from the inspectors
    We Invade Iraq
    We reach Baghdad
    We capture the leader we helped install
    We give him up tot he people who want to kill him
    they kill him
    attacks and random bombs are killing troops and citizens
    attacks are Saddams army
    attacks are Al qaeda
    attacks are linked to Iran
    attacks are sunnis
    attacks are shiites
    diplomatic attacks from a newly shitte government
    attacks on the green zone
    attacks are de-civilized citizens
    weapons are missing from caches
    attacks are coming from within
    attacks are coming from insurgents
    attacks are again al-qaeda
    attacks must be iranian hired
    attacks are now labeled from terrorist

    we must stay inside and have a phased withdrawal.
  • ledveddermanledvedderman Posts: 7,761
    macgyver06 wrote:
    and why in 3 months no one will be talking about phased withdrawals anymore...


    Did you look into the future to make that comment? Iraq will be the centerpiece of this campaign.
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  • macgyver06macgyver06 Posts: 2,500
    what happened to... if we cut the funding off.. they will be forcced to bring the troops home led?
  • ledveddermanledvedderman Posts: 7,761
    macgyver06 wrote:
    we did not fuck their country up.

    Really? That is news to me. All I know is that before March 2003 the whole country had running water, schools, power, and a (somewhat) stable gov.

    Now? Not so much.
    E8toX.gif

    http://www.reverbnation.com/brianzilm
  • macgyver06macgyver06 Posts: 2,500
    ledvedderman wrote:
    Really? That is news to me. All I know is that before March 2003 the whole country had running water, schools, power, and a (somewhat) stable gov.

    Now? Not so much.


    i was told before that time that.. their government was ran by a brutal dictator... is that not the case now that it is 2008?
  • ledveddermanledvedderman Posts: 7,761
    macgyver06 wrote:
    what happened to... if we cut the funding off.. they will be forcced to bring the troops home led?

    I've never been in favor of cutting the funding. I think we owe it to our military to not use that option. It's not their fault they got sent into a bullshit war. It's not their fault this administration didn't give them the proper body armour, while at the same time slashing their benefits each year in the budget for the last five years.
    E8toX.gif

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  • macgyver06macgyver06 Posts: 2,500
    ledvedderman wrote:
    I've never been in favor of cutting the funding. I think we owe it to our military to not use that option. It's not their fault they got sent into a bullshit war. It's not their fault this administration didn't give them the proper body armour, while at the same time slashing their benefits each year in the budget for the last five years.


    another thing they did was release Halliburton as its main monopolized supplier.. opening the market of armor and necessities to a competitive market in a way to lower the prices... however, this is an economic tactic... other companies in a competitve market for instance..... sony vs. generic

    so if sony is supplying all the homes in this country with tvs and all of a sudden the generic brand gets the deal... will you be watching the best tv


    see what im getting at...


    so saying a phased withdrawal is the way to go has an open ended result... have you thought about the future and what could possibly happen if a phased withdrawal should happen?
  • ledveddermanledvedderman Posts: 7,761
    macgyver06 wrote:
    i was told before that time that.. their government was ran by a brutal dictator... is that not the case now that it is 2008?

    I was told the same thing. Was Sadaam a bad guy? Yes. However, there was no reason to go after him. No reason. The 9/11-Iraq angle was clearly bullshit. The WMD's sold a lot of the population, but still bullshit.
    E8toX.gif

    http://www.reverbnation.com/brianzilm
  • ledveddermanledvedderman Posts: 7,761
    macgyver06 wrote:
    another thing they did was release Halliburton as its main monopolized supplier.. opening the market of armor and necessities to a competitive market in a way to lower the prices... however, this is an economic tactic... other companies in a competitve market for instance..... sony vs. generic

    so if sony is supplying all the homes in this country with tvs and all of a sudden the generic brand gets the deal... will you be watching the best tv


    see what im getting at...


    so saying a phased withdrawal is the way to go has an open ended result... have you thought about the future and what could possibly happen if a phased withdrawal should happen?

    Mac- I'm right there with you with the war profiteering. It really makes me sick. We don't disagree on anything except how to get out.

    I think there are many risks and benefits to both methods (leaving tomorrow and phased withdrawl). From what I've determined, the risks are far less with a careful, strategic exit than just pulling out immediatley.

    That's where we differ.
    E8toX.gif

    http://www.reverbnation.com/brianzilm
  • macgyver06macgyver06 Posts: 2,500
    ledvedderman wrote:
    I was told the same thing. Was Sadaam a bad guy? Yes. However, there was no reason to go after him. No reason. The 9/11-Iraq angle was clearly bullshit. The WMD's sold a lot of the population, but still bullshit.


    you can believe this or not.. but the people who are telling you that a phased withdrawal is the smart thing to do are actually going to support the war when they get elected... you can stop them now... or vote for them and be one of those fooled citizens again.


    and if you don't believe me i will give you more evidence:

    if you are defending your country and you realize the enemy is getting smaller in numbers seemingly in set timetable... 2000 a week... would you keep attacking your enemy???

    please dont ignore that paragraph... because you yourself sai d you are worried about genocide.
  • ledveddermanledvedderman Posts: 7,761
    macgyver06 wrote:
    you can believe this or not.. but the people who are telling you that a phased withdrawal is the smart thing to do are actually going to support the war when they get elected... you can stop them now... or vote for them and be one of those fooled citizens again.


    and if you don't believe me i will give you more evidence:

    if you are defending your country and you realize the enemy is getting smaller in numbers seemingly in set timetable... 2000 a week... would you keep attacking your enemy???

    please dont ignore that paragraph... because you yourself sai d you are worried about genocide.

    I don't think voting for Senator Obama will lead to me getting hoodwinked.

    I think you make a valid point. I wish I had the military mind to debate HOW we debate strategically, because I don't really know. However, I think it would make sense to pull out the troops that right now are in the parts of the country where they are not under constant attack first. Once again, I'm not military strategist but I think that's where you start and make decisions from there as to where to pull troops out from next.
    E8toX.gif

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  • macgyver06macgyver06 Posts: 2,500
    ledvedderman wrote:
    I don't think voting for Senator Obama will lead to me getting hoodwinked.

    I think you make a valid point. I wish I had the military mind to debate HOW we debate strategically, because I don't really know. However, I think it would make sense to pull out the troops that right now are in the parts of the country where they are not under constant attack first. Once again, I'm not military strategist but I think that's where you start and make decisions from there as to where to pull troops out from next.


    and Mike Gravel offers something different. The war and our problems because of it economically will be resolved and can return to progress come February. The process could start tomorrow, but the senate doesn't want it.
  • theroachmantheroachman Posts: 362
    This is a list of the known groups in Iraq put together by a friend who is an expert on the Middle East. There are most likly others who have not shown up in an press yet.


    The Mahdi Army
    The Badr Brigades
    The Iraqi Army
    The Coalition
    Al-Qaeda
    The Sunni Insurgents
    The Anbar Awakening
    The PKK
    Turkey
    Erratic Iranian patrol vessels
    Random street thugs
    I hate quotations. Tell me what you know.
    ~Ralph Waldo Emerson~

    The Tie-Dye Lady is HOT!!!
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