You say we had the support of the entire world, but a gallup pinternational poll post 9/11, showed the biggest threat to world peace was the United States, according to the majority by a large margin.
As to the histroy of afghanistan...the US has supplied tens of thousands of school textbooks to afghan schools, teaching the more radical side of Islam, in an effort to keep the soviets in a quagmire, much like our vietnam. We've also supplied millions in arms, built extensive tunnel networks, all in the name of fighting communism. Basically using afghanistan as a pawn, while literally tens of thousands of innocents lost their lives in the bloody game.
Washington's stated goals and actual goals are never the same. AS long as the markets open up to forieign business their job is done. history has dozens of examples. That's all they need, access to the resources. What type of gov't they have or how free or well treated the people are is almost irrelevent.
you have a link to that poll? cos ive heard of that result, but i am 99% sure it was after IRAQ, not 9/11. post-9/11, we had pretty strong international support. we had a chance to make a true international effort to truly address terrorism and we blew it.
i am well aware of our involvement in afghanistan and it is shameful. but again, they were harboring terrorists and even if we created them, it was a chance to try and right our wrongs and restore that country to its people. but, again, we blew it.
as to the last post... maybe to an extent. i agree this administration never had good intentions. it's why i regret campaigning against al gore in 2000. had he been elected, we might have had a shot at the first two. but the neocons and their puppet president had their own agenda. i dont think economics was the driving force, but ive no doubt it played a part.
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Surfing The far side of THE Sombrero Galaxy Posts: 18,200
To me this is what it's ALL ABOUT!
The Price of Oil
(Billy Bragg)
Voices on the radio
Tell us that we're going to war
Those brave men and women in uniform
They want to know what they're fighting for
The generals want to hear the end game
The allies won't approve the plan
But the oil men in the White House
They just don't give a damn
'Cause it's all about the price of oil
It's all about the price of oil
Don't give me no shit about blood, sweat, tears and toil
It's all about the price of oil
Now, I ain't no fan of Saddam Hussein
No, please don't get me wrong
If it's freeing the Iraqi people you're after
Then why have we waited so long ?
Why didn't we sort this out last time ?
Was he less evil then than he is now ?
The stock market holds the answer
To "Why him? Why here? Why now?"
Saddam killed his own people
Just like General Pinochet
And once upon a time both these evil men
Were supported by the USA
To whisper it, even Bin Laden
Once drank from America's cup
Just like that election down in Florida
This shit doesn't all add up
*We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
you have a link to that poll? cos ive heard of that result, but i am 99% sure it was after IRAQ, not 9/11. post-9/11, we had pretty strong international support. we had a chance to make a true international effort to truly address terrorism and we blew it.
i am well aware of our involvement in afghanistan and it is shameful. but again, they were harboring terrorists and even if we created them, it was a chance to try and right our wrongs and restore that country to its people. but, again, we blew it.
as to the last post... maybe to an extent. i agree this administration never had good intentions. it's why i regret campaigning against al gore in 2000. had he been elected, we might have had a shot at the first two. but the neocons and their puppet president had their own agenda. i dont think economics was the driving force, but ive no doubt it played a part.
I dont' have the link, it was something i read from CHomsky a while ago. It was gallup international poll of Europeans, but it has changed recently "According to the same survey, Europeans believe the United States contributes the most to world instability" while Israel is the biggest threat to world peace. That's from a controversial EU poll and not the Gallup as I had thought. still.
You think the state of mind that lead into the war flip flopped at some point? hehe...around what time would that be then?
I 'm thinking more along the lines of Central America and what happened all over the place down there is more the picture, and what has continued to be, and what will continue to be.
same ol same ol...looks just like a tried (tired) and true prescription for (US) imperialism to me. What do you think?
I think if it were possible to pull the troops out now, it would've happened. Oil money is not worth all of the bad publicity the war has received to this point.
The issue now is leaving behind an unstable country.
For those of you who are distraught over the deaths of Iraqi citizens, or who believe the invasion of Afghanistan was a just cause, the continued occupation of Iraq should be something that you stand behind if your logic is consistent.
The reason being is that the US occupation is most likely preventing an escalation of the civil war which has been claiming most of the civilian iraqi deaths up to this point.
Also, the reason why Al Qaeda and the Taliban were able to control Afghanistan is because of the instability that followed the removal of Soviet communist control over the country.
I subscribe to the theories put forth in chapter 2 of Greg Palast's "Armed Madhouse". It's somewhat complicated to explain, but the main reason Sadaam Hussein had to go was that he was playing around with the oil markets by varying Iraq's production of oil and its relation to its quota set forth by OPEC. The neocon crowd wanted to get in there and double production and bust up OPEC. The big oil companies weren't going to allow this to happen and they didn't. Instead, Iraq's production of oil has been cut in half and that is why we see the gas prices we see today and the oil companies and Saudi's are making a killing.
I would definitely keep an eye on and and ear out for the OPEC countries.
I think we're fighting for a different interpretation of freedom.
We're fighting for the freedom of consumers around the world to buy as many products as they can (many being very disposable, way over-packaged and involving oil in their production) and drive their vehicles as much as possible 24/7-365.
Walking can be a real trip
***********************
"We've laid the groundwork. It's like planting the seeds. And next year, it's spring." - Nader
***********************
Prepare for tending to your garden, America.
Comments
you have a link to that poll? cos ive heard of that result, but i am 99% sure it was after IRAQ, not 9/11. post-9/11, we had pretty strong international support. we had a chance to make a true international effort to truly address terrorism and we blew it.
i am well aware of our involvement in afghanistan and it is shameful. but again, they were harboring terrorists and even if we created them, it was a chance to try and right our wrongs and restore that country to its people. but, again, we blew it.
as to the last post... maybe to an extent. i agree this administration never had good intentions. it's why i regret campaigning against al gore in 2000. had he been elected, we might have had a shot at the first two. but the neocons and their puppet president had their own agenda. i dont think economics was the driving force, but ive no doubt it played a part.
The Price of Oil
(Billy Bragg)
Voices on the radio
Tell us that we're going to war
Those brave men and women in uniform
They want to know what they're fighting for
The generals want to hear the end game
The allies won't approve the plan
But the oil men in the White House
They just don't give a damn
'Cause it's all about the price of oil
It's all about the price of oil
Don't give me no shit about blood, sweat, tears and toil
It's all about the price of oil
Now, I ain't no fan of Saddam Hussein
No, please don't get me wrong
If it's freeing the Iraqi people you're after
Then why have we waited so long ?
Why didn't we sort this out last time ?
Was he less evil then than he is now ?
The stock market holds the answer
To "Why him? Why here? Why now?"
Saddam killed his own people
Just like General Pinochet
And once upon a time both these evil men
Were supported by the USA
To whisper it, even Bin Laden
Once drank from America's cup
Just like that election down in Florida
This shit doesn't all add up
BB....The Price Of Oil
Peace
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
I dont' have the link, it was something i read from CHomsky a while ago. It was gallup international poll of Europeans, but it has changed recently "According to the same survey, Europeans believe the United States contributes the most to world instability" while Israel is the biggest threat to world peace. That's from a controversial EU poll and not the Gallup as I had thought. still.
I think if it were possible to pull the troops out now, it would've happened. Oil money is not worth all of the bad publicity the war has received to this point.
The issue now is leaving behind an unstable country.
For those of you who are distraught over the deaths of Iraqi citizens, or who believe the invasion of Afghanistan was a just cause, the continued occupation of Iraq should be something that you stand behind if your logic is consistent.
The reason being is that the US occupation is most likely preventing an escalation of the civil war which has been claiming most of the civilian iraqi deaths up to this point.
Also, the reason why Al Qaeda and the Taliban were able to control Afghanistan is because of the instability that followed the removal of Soviet communist control over the country.
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=272825
I would definitely keep an eye on and and ear out for the OPEC countries.
I think we're fighting for a different interpretation of freedom.
We're fighting for the freedom of consumers around the world to buy as many products as they can (many being very disposable, way over-packaged and involving oil in their production) and drive their vehicles as much as possible 24/7-365.
***********************
"We've laid the groundwork. It's like planting the seeds. And next year, it's spring." - Nader
***********************
Prepare for tending to your garden, America.