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Waterboarding - Torture or Not?

Ridin The WaveRidin The Wave Posts: 552
edited December 2007 in A Moving Train
I haven't seen any threads on this, so I figured I'd post this link to get some thoughts.

http://current.com/items/86417301_kaj_larsen_goes_waterboarding
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • mammasanmammasan Posts: 5,656
    It is torture and the fact that our country has used it is sickening.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • Ridin The WaveRidin The Wave Posts: 552
    I totally agree. I don't know how anyone could argue that torture only exists when there is organ failure involved. There are SO SO SO many forms of torture that don't involve organ failure, this being one of them!
  • steve_inhidingsteve_inhiding Posts: 41
    Hello everyone,

    Long time reader, third or forth time poster.

    For some reason this post (or more specifically the accompaning video) really disturbed me. Anyone group that uses this "interrigation technique" is both a sick fucking organisation, and a stupid one (I'd admit anything under waterboarding because I'm terribly scared of pain/discomfort). I can't imagine the thought process that the average american citizen goes through every day in regards to the war on terror, but I pray, even as an atheist, that people are smart enough to realise that this can only lead to disinformation and hatred which is counteractive to the worthy cause all people of reasonable mind are fighting.

    As apolitically as possible, I hope most everybody on the board will agree. Despite the bottle or 2 of wine I've had. : )

    Cheers,
    Steve
  • even flow?even flow? Posts: 8,066
    If it gets those terrorists to talk I would say it is worth the while to torture em anyway you can. How can we win this war on terror if we don't get information out of these sicks fuc*s, who'd be willing to blow themselves up at the drop of an American dime because they hate our freedom and the way we live. If they could only see that our meddling in their countries is for the benefit of the people living there and the one's who sell them out, this world would be a more peaceful place. And I wouldn't have to watch this war updates interupt my American Idol and Survivor shows. If they don't like torture maybe we should make the place into a glass parking lot.


    edit: Ooops signed in under the wrong name.
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  • bryn_cmbsbryn_cmbs Posts: 407
    It is. Period.
    http://alltimetopfive-boofcombs.blogspot.com/
  • steve_inhidingsteve_inhiding Posts: 41
    I just can't see how this treatment of people can yield any useful information. C'mon, anyone would admit to terrorism if they thought the only way to live (ie, not drown) was to tell the interrigators what they wanted to hear. Surely this technique will only cloud any legitimate information that may be coming through, whether that be gathered with torture or not.

    Also, this is hardly doing to west's reputation any good. Let's not pretend that we're the only side that know.

    Cheers
    Steve
  • Pearl Jam and toastPearl Jam and toast Posts: 4,475
    Yes. Duh. Is it cruel? yes.. unusual?.. definetly.

    There isn't even a debate here, this is the bush administration not giving a shit about law.
    steve inhiding wrote:
    I just can't see how this treatment of people can yield any useful information.

    It can't.
    Come on pilgrim you know he loves you..

    http://www.wishlistfoundation.org

    Oh my, they dropped the leash.



    Morgan Freeman/Clint Eastwood 08' for President!

    "Make our day"
  • RolandTD20KdrummerRolandTD20Kdrummer Posts: 13,066
    Shocking that politicians (of all people) seem to have forgotten it's all largely in part about maintaining impeccable public image. Wanting to play the big bad guy now to show the terrorists (and the world) who's the boss. Show them who the real tough guys are....don't mess with us because we're not fooling around! We're far worse than your worst nightmares...ever.. mr. terrorist. and ready to bring it on you anytime. Wait....I'm kinda confused who the bad guy is again.

    maybe not so great a plan..
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

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  • steve_inhidingsteve_inhiding Posts: 41
    Pearl Jam and toast wrote:
    There isn't even a debate here, this is the bush administration not giving a shit about law.
    quote]

    I don't fully agree. I Can't be sure that Bush & co are evil and tortuous (sic) for the sake of it. I have a strange feeling that they think they're doing the right thing by us (freedom lovers) and that they think they are right. Obviously this doesn't make it so, but to simply label them as evil is as bad as them labeling Iraq, Iran, Bin Laden, etc as evil.

    I see the above grouping as a bunch of whackos who thinks they're the only people who could possible know what's right.....

    of course you could put me in the above group also... :)
  • 810wmb810wmb Posts: 849
    it worked with the 9-11 dude, so i guess you guys that say it doesn't work are wrong
    i'm the meat, yer not...signed Capt Asshat
  • ledveddermanledvedderman Posts: 7,761
    810wmb wrote:
    it worked with the 9-11 dude, so i guess you guys that say it doesn't work are wrong

    I bet if you were waterboarded you'd admit to killing Lincoln if it meant they'd quit TORTURING you.
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  • 810wmb810wmb Posts: 849
    ledvedderman wrote:
    I bet if you were waterboarded you'd admit to killing Lincoln if it meant they'd quit TORTURING you.


    maybe, maybe not

    doesn't change the FACT that it has worked
    i'm the meat, yer not...signed Capt Asshat
  • steve_inhidingsteve_inhiding Posts: 41
    810wmb wrote:
    maybe, maybe not

    doesn't change the FACT that it has worked

    But that's not a fact, is it?

    it just means someone has said something that stops others from putting them through unbearable suffering.

    All this really proves is that the pain is so unbearable than they'll give the other side (in this case the US and the western allies) any information the they want, whether true or not.

    Torture and the results it gathers are useless and destructive.
  • anothercloneanotherclone Posts: 1,688
    You know how I look at waterboarding? If someone was doing it to one of our boys or girls overseas, would WE call it torture? You bet your sweet ass we would.
  • 810wmb810wmb Posts: 849
    steve_inhiding wrote:
    But that's not a fact, is it?

    it just means someone has said something that stops others from putting them through unbearable suffering.

    All this really proves is that the pain is so unbearable than they'll give the other side (in this case the US and the western allies) any information the they want, whether true or not.

    Torture and the results it gathers are useless and destructive.

    but the info WAS TRUE so it did work
    i'm the meat, yer not...signed Capt Asshat
  • 810wmb810wmb Posts: 849
    anotherclone wrote:
    You know how I look at waterboarding? If someone was doing it to one of our boys or girls overseas, would WE call it torture? You bet your sweet ass we would.

    yr right - they just cut our heads off, drag our dead bodies through the street naked, ect.

    we are soooooooooooo inhumane
    i'm the meat, yer not...signed Capt Asshat
  • Pearl Jam and toastPearl Jam and toast Posts: 4,475
    810wmb wrote:
    maybe, maybe not

    doesn't change the FACT that it has worked
    That's not a fact. In fact, anyone on this planet with knowledge about torture will tell you that it doesn't work. Sure you'll get someone to confess to something but that doesn't mean the method works at all.
    Come on pilgrim you know he loves you..

    http://www.wishlistfoundation.org

    Oh my, they dropped the leash.



    Morgan Freeman/Clint Eastwood 08' for President!

    "Make our day"
  • anothercloneanotherclone Posts: 1,688
    810wmb wrote:
    yr right - they just cut our heads off, drag our dead bodies through the street naked, ect.

    we are soooooooooooo inhumane

    HUH? Maybe its the hangover I'm suffering with today but ya' lost me here sailor.
  • blackredyellowblackredyellow Posts: 5,889
    810wmb wrote:
    maybe, maybe not

    doesn't change the FACT that it has worked


    It's NOT a fact....

    here are the facts:

    1) At one point during days of interrogation he was water-boarded

    2) After a long interrogation he admitted to involvement in 9/11, and about 147 other things.


    What we don't know, is if any of his admissions were true, or if it was water boarding or other questions, techniques or whatever that made him talk.
    My whole life
    was like a picture
    of a sunny day
    “We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
    ― Abraham Lincoln
  • 810wmb810wmb Posts: 849
    blackredyellow wrote:
    It's NOT a fact....

    here are the facts:

    1) At one point during days of interrogation he was water-boarded

    2) After a long interrogation he admitted to involvement in 9/11, and about 147 other things.


    What we don't know, is if any of his admissions were true, or if it was water boarding or other questions, techniques or whatever that made him talk.

    so, are you saying that you believe that he wasn't involved?
    i'm the meat, yer not...signed Capt Asshat
  • ledveddermanledvedderman Posts: 7,761
    810wmb wrote:
    so, are you saying that you believe that he wasn't involved?

    Pretty sure if you read it yourself you can see that's not what he's saying.
    E8toX.gif

    http://www.reverbnation.com/brianzilm
  • 810wmb810wmb Posts: 849
    ledvedderman wrote:
    Pretty sure if you read it yourself you can see that's not what he's saying.

    i did read it, why do you think i asked the question?
    i'm the meat, yer not...signed Capt Asshat
  • blackredyellowblackredyellow Posts: 5,889
    810wmb wrote:
    so, are you saying that you believe that he wasn't involved?

    No, I'm not saying that. I actually do think that he was involved. But just because someone confesses to something after a long interrogation where torture was involved, doesn't make it true.

    Besides the fact with him, he was never going to be released anyway, so why not take the blame for everything to boost his own image or to just take some heat off of other terrorists who are still free.

    I guarantee that if any of us were subjected to what he was put through, that we would admit to just about anything.
    My whole life
    was like a picture
    of a sunny day
    “We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
    ― Abraham Lincoln
  • Ridin The WaveRidin The Wave Posts: 552
    blackredyellow wrote:

    he was never going to be released anyway, so why not take the blame for everything to boost his own image or to just take some heat off of other terrorists who are still free.

    I totally agree with this statement.

    But, even if the above wasn't/isn't the case, the man from 9/11 was subjected to many different techniques, as was already stated - there is no way to show which one was successful.

    And even if what he said was true and it was 100% because of the waterboarding, that does not a) make it right and b) mean it will work everytime!
  • mammasanmammasan Posts: 5,656
    810wmb wrote:
    it worked with the 9-11 dude, so i guess you guys that say it doesn't work are wrong

    Ok it worked for this one individual, but for the most part information obtain through torture is highly unreliable. Second even if it was reliable it is still wrong. We are supposed to be this great democracy. Protectors of justice and liberty. We are supposed to lead by example and the example we are senting is jusr plain wrong. We are going against every principle this country was founded apon and once we have destroyed those principles what is there really left to defend. By comminting these acts we are lowering ourselves to the terrorists standards and at that point we are no better then they are and they basically won.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 23,303
    absolutely it is torture.

    if you don't believe it, why don't you volunteer to lie down on a board and let me pour water down your throat until you nearly drown.

    any takers??




    i didn't think so.
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • CosmoCosmo Posts: 12,225
    810wmb wrote:
    yr right - they just cut our heads off, drag our dead bodies through the street naked, ect.

    we are soooooooooooo inhumane
    ...
    You basically condone and stamp their acts with your approval when you accept that acting the same way as they do is the norm.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • hrd2imgnhrd2imgn Southwest Burbs of Chicago Posts: 4,899
    this is a sticky situation.

    I think to get the bad guys any means should be used if it saves lives. I know innocents will get it from time to time, but that is something we have to risk to prevent more 9/11's.

    This isn't about us being better than them morally, they will cut your fucking head off in a heart beat so fuck sympathy for these bastards. If it saves one life torturing one of these fuckers I am all for it. LLets not play the spin game either and say if it was your loved one tortured etc either, get a better argument.

    think of it this way, if you had a child or relative or friend,and this dude had info that will or could lead to their death but won't spill the beans you can't seriously tell me you wouldn't do ANYTHING to get the info. I'd find that hard to believe. You would allow the chance of that person dying for moral athority.....We(the US/"coalition") are fighting a mindset that does not care about dying, would not hesitate to torture/mainme/murder you...I say fuck moral high ground and do whatever we need to to save our citizens' lives. If that makes us now somehow no better than them you are IMHO way off.

    If they are a citizen of the country interrogating them they should however have all the right afforded to them. If not a citezen all betts are off.
  • hrd2imgnhrd2imgn Southwest Burbs of Chicago Posts: 4,899
    Cosmo wrote:
    ...
    right - they just cut our heads off, drag our dead bodies through the street naked, ect


    you forgot burning their bodies and then hanging their charred reamins off buildings.

    FUCK ALL THE TERRORIST BASTARDS they would not bat an eyelash doing any of this to you!

    These twisted fuckers fly planes full of people into buildings full of people hoping the buildings will collapse. They go into markets and blow up innocent people -women and children what they claim we do to them.

    Fuck them
  • CosmoCosmo Posts: 12,225
    hrd2imgn wrote:
    right - they just cut our heads off, drag our dead bodies through the street naked, ect

    you forgot burning their bodies and then hanging their charred reamins off buildings.

    FUCK ALL THE TERRORIST BASTARDS they would not bat an eyelash doing any of this to you!
    ...
    Guess again. Those were not 'Terrorists' who did that. It was the 'Poor oppressed Iraqis that we want to liberate and spread democracy all over'.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
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