Well UN resolutions are how you gain lands....that's how Israel got land in the first place. You attack, cease fire, have a negotiation, and the victor usually sees some sort of spoils.
But I'll re-phrase. Israel's motive is to reshape the Middle East so they have more control over it. Even if the motive doesn't have to do with lands in this case, it certainly isn't driven by 2 hostages. So it's incorrect to say that.
maybe Israel's strategy in the region is to mitigate the genocidal ambitions of some of its neighbors. you know, all those statements that people on MT either ignore, spin, or justify. maybe the situation on the ground that lasted for 6 years was unacceptable and hezbollah's most recent attack was the straw that broke the camel's back?
I sincerely hope you read post #11. Nobody wanted this war, especially Israel and their new leader. This was never about arms sales. If you want to talk about money and influence, read what Warren Buffet just did in Israel -that is real adult money...
i read your post but at the end of the day - but i don't share his opinion ... if you read what i believe to be the motives for this war - you will see that i believe it to be a case of building a case against iran ... obviously, articles like that promote that agenda further ... secondly, if israel did not want this war - they would not have escalated it as much as they did ... as for buffett - just as you claim hezbollah to be a proxy arm for iran ... so is israel to the US ...
secondly, if israel did not want this war - they would not have escalated it as much as they did ... .
this statement shows you have no comprehension of israeli military doctrine. israel always has a policy of escalation in order to keep the initiative, to keep the fighting confined to enemy territory, and to exert political pressure. in no way does it mean israel "wants" war. this was a war of necessity. i don't even want to think about hezbollah being armed to the teeth like it was, when its master also has nuclear weapons. hezbollah had to be mitigated before that happens.
the situation on the ground for the past 6 years was intolerable and the entire reason for this war, besides for the return of the kidnapped soldiers, was to fundamentally change the situation on the ground in southern lebanon. israel never "wants" war. we don't contort death into a sick form of victory. we don't consider not losing 12,000 men and 500 planes in 6 days a "historic, strategic victory".
maybe Israel's strategy in the region is to mitigate the genocidal ambitions of some of its neighbors. you know, all those statements that people on MT either ignore, spin, or justify. maybe the situation on the ground that lasted for 6 years was unacceptable and hezbollah's most recent attack was the straw that broke the camel's back?
You don't mitigate someone's ambitions to kill you by attacking them.
Funny how many times in the last month I said that the Israeli offensive would be counter-productive on every level...comparable to the job the USA is doing in Iraq....both failures...should add-in the loss of support from the majority of western countries for Israel...not for the right of defending itself but being dis-proportionate in their attack....
We had a support from the majority of western countries? Wanna tell me something new?
The only thing we actually gained is the weapon-embargo. The other things are pro-Hizbullah: popular than ever, scary than ever ==> The Shi'ite Muslims are about to take over Lebanon's lead via Hizbullah. You see, they couldn't make it without attacking Israel, there was no way they would have gained such popularity. One can only hope these critical voices we began to hear today from Lebanon about the Hizbullah's latest actions will remind the Lebanese people who these men are really are - a group of terrorist who has nothing to do with Lebanon's interests. Nothing. I wonder if Hizbullah would kill their critics as they have promised to do so not too while ago...
btw, did you know they already broke the cease-fire? they faired at IDF force when it was on his way out of Lebanon.
The only thing we actually gained is the weapon-embargo. The other things are pro-Hizbullah: popular than ever, scary than ever ==> The Shi'ite Muslims are about to take over Lebanon's lead via Hizbullah. You see, they couldn't make it without attacking Israel, there's no way they would gain such popularity. One can only hope these critical voices we began to here today from Lebanon about the Hizbullah's latest actions will remind the Lebanese people who these men are really are - a group of terrorist who has nothing to do with Lebanon's interests. Nothing. I wonder if Hizbullah would kill their critics as they have promised to so not too while ago...
btw, did you know they already broke the cease-fire? they faired at IDF force when it was on his way out of Lebanon.
They are scarier than ever because the escalted attacks by your country lead to this....no one is saying Israel does not have a right to defend iteself...but it seems agreed upon they did go overboard and therefore have created this escalation in support for Hezbollah....violence only creates violence....however I will disagree and say the majority think that Israel did go overboard...which is NOT the same as saying israel does not have a right to defend itself....
They are scarier than ever because the escalted attacks by your country lead to this....no one is saying Israel does not have a right to defend iteself...but it seems agreed upon they did go overboard and therefore have created this escalation in support for Hezbollah....violence only creates violence....however I will disagree and say the majority think that Israel did go overboard...which is NOT the same as saying israel does not have a right to defend itself....
This is what I was traying to say, they become scarier than ever because of their attack on Israel and us going to a war - this is what they wanted us to do, cause there was NO other way they could have gained such popularity.
Darling, there isn't any support of Israel from the majority of western countries for a LONG time, regardless that war. everyone said we had the right to defend ourselfs this time simply because it WAS true - we had no other choice. The problem was the way we reacted.
This is what I was traying to say, they become scarier than ever because of their attack on Israel and us going to a war - this is what they wanted us to do, cause there was NO other way they could have gained such popularity.
Darling, there isn't any support of Israel from the majority of western countries for a LONG time, regardless that war. everyone said we had the right to defend ourselfs this time simply because it WAS true - we had no other choice. The problem was the way we reacted.
I agree...its just disturbing that Nasarallah has more support than ever....I ask you if given the choice how would you have dealt with the kidnapped soldiers....I know tough question but one that was recently faced with...
I agree...its just disturbing that Nasarallah has more support than ever....I ask you if given the choice how would you have dealt with the kidnapped soldiers....I know tough question but one that was recently faced with...
I would have done what Sharon (btw, his condition got worse) did in 2003 - "warning shots", then give them these 4 Lebanese prisoners (though all of them had a fair trail) in exchange to our soliders, and after that try to reach a peace agreement with Lebanon, and hoping this time their prime minister wouldn't be murdered out of it.
Anyway I do believe an attack was an accident waiting to happen. Hizbullah were knowen to gain a huge-worried amount of weapons, I think one should have wait till got enough precise wide-scale info and then attack them after their next provocation (they will always find an excuse for doing that), providing we yet don't have a peace agreement with Lebanon.
I would have done what Sharon (btw, his condition got worse) did in 2003 - "warning shots", then give them these 4 Lebanese prisoners (though all of them had a fair trail) in exchange to our soliders, and after that try to reach a peace agreement with Lebanon, and hoping this time their prime minister wouldn't be murdered out of it.
Anyway I do believe an attack was an accident waiting to happen. Hizbullah were knowen to gain a huge-worried amount of weapons, I think one should have wait till got enough precise wide-scale info and then attack them after their next provocation (they will always find an excuse for doing that), providing we yet don't have a peace agreement with Lebanon.
That to me as you spoke in the first paragraph seems to be responsible measures...and I wish that was done....but I guess we learn from mistakes...just to bad when it takes 1000+ lives from both sides to realize that.....
Now that there is a cease fire in Lebanon, I think we should all look back at the results of the latest round of violence for both Israel and the world.
1. Hezbollah a group that had support of about one third of the people in Lebanon now has support of an overwhelming majority – about 80 – 90 %
2. About half of Hezbollah’s rockets were destroyed, still leaving them with roughly 600 – 800 rockets and still has the ability to get more.
3. Arab support for Hezbollah is at an all time high. People in Baghdad are hanging flags on their homes and joining in the streets in support.
4. Hezbollah is claiming victory allowing it to rally even more support.
5. Israel now is forced to negotiate with Hezbollah over an exchange of prisoners that were captured during the last few weeks of fighting.
6. Destabilized a pro-western government, forcing the Lebanese government to state that it respected Hezbullah.
7. The UN passes a resolution that by all accounts that I’ve seen will result in very little in the overall situation.
8. Hundreds of Israeli and Lebanese civilians dead.
It should be noted that the violence was in response to a two Israeli soldiers being kidnapped for no reason. However, I think if Israel had to do it all over again, seeing the results as shown above, they may have chosen a different path.
...
Lebanon was a much nicer place when it was known for it's Blonde Lebanese Hashish. They need to make more of that stuff... sit down with Israel and smoke it while listening to Pink Floyd's 'Wish You Were Here' on headphones.
...
Then, they can all go outside and shoot those rockets over the ocean and say, "Whoa.... dude...".
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
That to me as you spoke in the first paragraph seems to be responsible measures...and I wish that was done....but I guess we learn from mistakes...just to bad when it takes 1000+ lives from both sides to realize that.....
And what about the second one? why do you think Hizbullah gained more weapons and built bunkers after we moved out? it is not a Lebanese official force, it has its funding sources in Iran & Syria. What would you think was about to happen? please, don't be naive. we already got a preview in 2003, 2006 was a check up, and in 2009 Hizbullah are gonna try attacking us again, this time they'll have even more weapons - regardless the embargo.
As long as they are around, Israel & Lebanon would never have a peace agreement, and as long as Israel & Lebanon don't have a peace agreement, Hizbullah will continue their actions against us & the Lebanese politicians / reporters standing in their way.
On a somewhat different topic, I think it is now important that the West (US, Israel, Europe, etc.) lead in the rebuilding of Lebanon. One of the reasons Hezbollah is popular is because they build hospitals and homes and roads. We cannot let them take credit for rebuilding what was destroyed. Its time for Americans and Israelis to spend the money to win the hearts and minds.
Obviously the biggest problem with this is potential Hezbollah attacks against the ones doing the rebuilding, but that will only hurt them in the long run. Its time to speak with generous actions in that region instead of harsh rhetoric.
On a somewhat different topic, I think it is now important that the West (US, Israel, Europe, etc.) lead in the rebuilding of Lebanon. One of the reasons Hezbollah is popular is because they build hospitals and homes and roads. We cannot let them take credit for rebuilding what was destroyed. Its time for Americans and Israelis to spend the money to win the hearts and minds.
Obviously the biggest problem with this is potential Hezbollah attacks against the ones doing the rebuilding, but that will only hurt them in the long run. Its time to speak with generous actions in that region instead of harsh rhetoric.
I like that idea....now to find some workers to do it...:)
On a somewhat different topic, I think it is now important that the West (US, Israel, Europe, etc.) lead in the rebuilding of Lebanon. One of the reasons Hezbollah is popular is because they build hospitals and homes and roads. We cannot let them take credit for rebuilding what was destroyed. Its time for Americans and Israelis to spend the money to win the hearts and minds.
Obviously the biggest problem with this is potential Hezbollah attacks against the ones doing the rebuilding, but that will only hurt them in the long run. Its time to speak with generous actions in that region instead of harsh rhetoric.
so america and israel can take credit for it? I mean you can't rape an entire country then think giving them money is gonna make it all better.
If america want's to win the hearts and minds of people, they need to stop invading countries, supporting bad ones (Saudi arabia,israel) and not interfere in other peoples issues. That would be a start, anything less is nothing.
so america and israel can take credit for it? I mean you can't rape an entire country then think giving them money is gonna make it all better.
If america want's to win the hearts and minds of people, they need to stop invading countries, supporting bad ones (Saudi arabia,israel) and not interfere in other peoples issues. That would be a start, anything less is nothing.
However still a message.....even if the efforts went beyond the government....but alas more would need to be done....
As for the US goes, it should just retract it's tentacles from other parts of the world and allow peace to prosper it's self. Israel needs to get out of other people's land, get back Shebaa Farms and come up with a realistic plan for removing settlers from Palestine. Work out the refugee deal, total amnesty for both sides. Then everyone can make their happy littles lives where ever they want and they don't have to be friends. Just live.
Live simply, so that others may simply live. ~ Ghandi
When we start messing around in other people's business the issues don't get resolved. War doesn't bring about peace, tolerance does and peace just blooms out of that. Compromise. That's why it seems they want war for other reasons. Which means that dead people don't matter to them, for their greater goal, corporate or expansionist.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
On a somewhat different topic, I think it is now important that the West (US, Israel, Europe, etc.) lead in the rebuilding of Lebanon. One of the reasons Hezbollah is popular is because they build hospitals and homes and roads. We cannot let them take credit for rebuilding what was destroyed. Its time for Americans and Israelis to spend the money to win the hearts and minds.
Obviously the biggest problem with this is potential Hezbollah attacks against the ones doing the rebuilding, but that will only hurt them in the long run. Its time to speak with generous actions in that region instead of harsh rhetoric.
I agree that the US - and Israel itself - should have put more financial resources in fostering democracy in Lebanon. Rather than using widespread bombing to get rid Southern Lebanon of Hiz'bullah. Wrong tactic. And no, I definitely do not think this war was worth it, but very counterproductive.
I agree that the US - and Israel itself - should have put more financial resources in fostering democracy in Lebanon. Rather than using widespread bombing to get rid Southern Lebanon of Hiz'bullah. Wrong tactic. And no, I definitely do not think this war was worth it, but very counterproductive.
Israel don't care about democracy, only about leadership who have an interest to act for the sake of its civilians first, not for the sake of terrorists or other countries. Jordan is a monarchy, Egypt is a republic, Mauritania is an Islamic republic, and yet we have peace with all of these countries.
Comments
maybe Israel's strategy in the region is to mitigate the genocidal ambitions of some of its neighbors. you know, all those statements that people on MT either ignore, spin, or justify. maybe the situation on the ground that lasted for 6 years was unacceptable and hezbollah's most recent attack was the straw that broke the camel's back?
Most antizionists are antisemites
i read your post but at the end of the day - but i don't share his opinion ... if you read what i believe to be the motives for this war - you will see that i believe it to be a case of building a case against iran ... obviously, articles like that promote that agenda further ... secondly, if israel did not want this war - they would not have escalated it as much as they did ... as for buffett - just as you claim hezbollah to be a proxy arm for iran ... so is israel to the US ...
this statement shows you have no comprehension of israeli military doctrine. israel always has a policy of escalation in order to keep the initiative, to keep the fighting confined to enemy territory, and to exert political pressure. in no way does it mean israel "wants" war. this was a war of necessity. i don't even want to think about hezbollah being armed to the teeth like it was, when its master also has nuclear weapons. hezbollah had to be mitigated before that happens.
the situation on the ground for the past 6 years was intolerable and the entire reason for this war, besides for the return of the kidnapped soldiers, was to fundamentally change the situation on the ground in southern lebanon. israel never "wants" war. we don't contort death into a sick form of victory. we don't consider not losing 12,000 men and 500 planes in 6 days a "historic, strategic victory".
Most antizionists are antisemites
You don't mitigate someone's ambitions to kill you by attacking them.
It strengthen's those ambitions...something many fail to see.....
So what is the alternative?
Keeping in mind that I already agree with you on the issue of bombing civilians in Lebanon.
Or more precisely, Israel is paying various arms manufacturers with your foreign aid money. Gotta love it
We had a support from the majority of western countries? Wanna tell me something new?
http://www.ynet.co.il/PicServer2/20122005/864777/RM17525493_wa.jpg
Its not a fake, this is for real.
The only thing we actually gained is the weapon-embargo. The other things are pro-Hizbullah: popular than ever, scary than ever ==> The Shi'ite Muslims are about to take over Lebanon's lead via Hizbullah. You see, they couldn't make it without attacking Israel, there was no way they would have gained such popularity. One can only hope these critical voices we began to hear today from Lebanon about the Hizbullah's latest actions will remind the Lebanese people who these men are really are - a group of terrorist who has nothing to do with Lebanon's interests. Nothing. I wonder if Hizbullah would kill their critics as they have promised to do so not too while ago...
btw, did you know they already broke the cease-fire? they faired at IDF force when it was on his way out of Lebanon.
They are scarier than ever because the escalted attacks by your country lead to this....no one is saying Israel does not have a right to defend iteself...but it seems agreed upon they did go overboard and therefore have created this escalation in support for Hezbollah....violence only creates violence....however I will disagree and say the majority think that Israel did go overboard...which is NOT the same as saying israel does not have a right to defend itself....
This is what I was traying to say, they become scarier than ever because of their attack on Israel and us going to a war - this is what they wanted us to do, cause there was NO other way they could have gained such popularity.
Darling, there isn't any support of Israel from the majority of western countries for a LONG time, regardless that war. everyone said we had the right to defend ourselfs this time simply because it WAS true - we had no other choice. The problem was the way we reacted.
I agree...its just disturbing that Nasarallah has more support than ever....I ask you if given the choice how would you have dealt with the kidnapped soldiers....I know tough question but one that was recently faced with...
I would have done what Sharon (btw, his condition got worse) did in 2003 - "warning shots", then give them these 4 Lebanese prisoners (though all of them had a fair trail) in exchange to our soliders, and after that try to reach a peace agreement with Lebanon, and hoping this time their prime minister wouldn't be murdered out of it.
Anyway I do believe an attack was an accident waiting to happen. Hizbullah were knowen to gain a huge-worried amount of weapons, I think one should have wait till got enough precise wide-scale info and then attack them after their next provocation (they will always find an excuse for doing that), providing we yet don't have a peace agreement with Lebanon.
That to me as you spoke in the first paragraph seems to be responsible measures...and I wish that was done....but I guess we learn from mistakes...just to bad when it takes 1000+ lives from both sides to realize that.....
Lebanon was a much nicer place when it was known for it's Blonde Lebanese Hashish. They need to make more of that stuff... sit down with Israel and smoke it while listening to Pink Floyd's 'Wish You Were Here' on headphones.
...
Then, they can all go outside and shoot those rockets over the ocean and say, "Whoa.... dude...".
Hail, Hail!!!
And what about the second one? why do you think Hizbullah gained more weapons and built bunkers after we moved out? it is not a Lebanese official force, it has its funding sources in Iran & Syria. What would you think was about to happen? please, don't be naive. we already got a preview in 2003, 2006 was a check up, and in 2009 Hizbullah are gonna try attacking us again, this time they'll have even more weapons - regardless the embargo.
As long as they are around, Israel & Lebanon would never have a peace agreement, and as long as Israel & Lebanon don't have a peace agreement, Hizbullah will continue their actions against us & the Lebanese politicians / reporters standing in their way.
Obviously the biggest problem with this is potential Hezbollah attacks against the ones doing the rebuilding, but that will only hurt them in the long run. Its time to speak with generous actions in that region instead of harsh rhetoric.
I like that idea....now to find some workers to do it...:)
Honestly that does sound like a great idea....
so america and israel can take credit for it? I mean you can't rape an entire country then think giving them money is gonna make it all better.
If america want's to win the hearts and minds of people, they need to stop invading countries, supporting bad ones (Saudi arabia,israel) and not interfere in other peoples issues. That would be a start, anything less is nothing.
However still a message.....even if the efforts went beyond the government....but alas more would need to be done....
As for the US goes, it should just retract it's tentacles from other parts of the world and allow peace to prosper it's self. Israel needs to get out of other people's land, get back Shebaa Farms and come up with a realistic plan for removing settlers from Palestine. Work out the refugee deal, total amnesty for both sides. Then everyone can make their happy littles lives where ever they want and they don't have to be friends. Just live.
Live simply, so that others may simply live. ~ Ghandi
When we start messing around in other people's business the issues don't get resolved. War doesn't bring about peace, tolerance does and peace just blooms out of that. Compromise. That's why it seems they want war for other reasons. Which means that dead people don't matter to them, for their greater goal, corporate or expansionist.
who can say that any war is worth it?
theres too much hatred and not enough love in the world - all we need is a bit more love...
I agree that the US - and Israel itself - should have put more financial resources in fostering democracy in Lebanon. Rather than using widespread bombing to get rid Southern Lebanon of Hiz'bullah. Wrong tactic. And no, I definitely do not think this war was worth it, but very counterproductive.
Israel don't care about democracy, only about leadership who have an interest to act for the sake of its civilians first, not for the sake of terrorists or other countries. Jordan is a monarchy, Egypt is a republic, Mauritania is an Islamic republic, and yet we have peace with all of these countries.