A Perspective on 9/11

OffHeGoes29

VINNY GOOMBA wrote:

As long as you are watching for it, we are on the same side.

Fair enough, happy to work with you.

fuck

mammasan wrote:

Great post man. I agree with everything you said. I was watching a documentary last night on the History Channel, I believe it was called 102 minutes. It was basically video footage pieced together from many different sources to form a timeline of what happened that day in NYC. One thing dawned on me while watching this and that is that we have learned nothing from that day. Our government, the people of this country haven't learned a thing after 9/11. For the first time we have seen the consequences of our actions come home. I'm not saying we deserved what happened or even taking blame away from the people who carried out the attack. But it would be irresponsible of anyone, especially those in government, not to admit that our foreign policy had a direct impact on what occurred that day. This is not some whacked out conspiracy theory but a fact. Even Osama Bin Laden has stated it himself. We failed to see this because of our own hubris and instead of looking at the world differently we continued on doing the same thing we did before.

Absolutely. It's sad to see "the greatest attack on American soil" teach us virtually nothing, but more hate. It certainly doesn't help that we had a shitty president at the time, but think about it, most Americans were united with Bush.

fuck

OffHeGoes29 wrote:

I'm sorry to hear about your friend, what was he doing that got the attention of the Government in the first place? And all the things you predicted about the future is pure speculation. The government is not going to waste its time and money worrying about you and me, and even the "Moving Train". Has anyone here had the FBI SWAT team bust down your door for posting here? How about maybe just a simple letter or phone call to intimidate? I do not know the Patriot Act as in depth as some of you might, but I don't believe the government really cares about whats posted here, unless you're going to be stupid and specifically say something incriminating. This is the same type of fear and ignorance that people get sucked into. The Patriot Act should be closely monitored to insure its power is not abused. I don't care if the government looks into my porn watching, buying habits, and message pit posting, they are wasting their time if that was true.

The Patriot Act can be a dangerous tool if used the wrong way, so it needs to be monitored to insure we benefit from it, and not victims of it.

Can be? It already is! It's been abused since the day it was signed into law. Many people who supported it back then even said so. I know people held in jail for years, in solitary confinement, under an investigation through the PATRIOT ACT, only to be shown he was completely innocent. All he was doing was exercising his rights, including his right to free speech, and was persecuted for it. Oh, and did I mention he was Arab?


Edit: thanks for ignoring my post, by the way.

fuck

OffHeGoes29 wrote:

Well once again sorry about your friend, but being friends with people that partake in that kind of life is asking for trouble. Even though he had nothing to do with it, being associated with those type of people will get you into trouble.

guilt by association? are you kidding?

I agree there is a lot of reform when it comes to issues like this, but I feel people here are a little paranoid about the government that’s out to get them. Its kind of a long the same lines as people on the ultra right worried about terrorist and radicals out to get them. We need to meet on some common ground and use some reasoning and logic on this issue. These are two extremes that can't get carried away in a panic.

The government isn't out to get EVERYONE, however they have been targeting many people who are innocent... to put it simply, it's common day McCarthyism.

And yes, I don't care if they waste my tax money on listening to me. If they think I'm some sort of a threat, then go a head. I don't do anything that would red flag they're interest in me.

So you don't care if they waste tax money, that could feed entire families, to watch people like you who are completely innocent?

heartdesire

_outlaw wrote:

For those of you who care (and especially for those who don't care), I've decided to dedicate my 3000th post, which also happens to fall on this day, to my thoughts on 9/11. I'm a bit fucked up right now, too, but I don't give a shit.

First of all, let's just get out of the way that yes, it was a tragedy, and I completely agree. My heart goes out to the people who lost their lives or family, etc etc etc...

however, on this day there seems to be something people often forget. It was not 4000 people that lost their lives due to 9/11... it was much more... in fact, it was well over one million lives lost.

The thing that gets me is that America is so narcissistic that it never does think about any other nation but itself. When we talk about pulling the troops out of Iraq, we often don't mention what's best for the Iraqi people. We want to pull out because it is in OUR best interest. We never talk about the 4.7 million Iraqis who were displaced and currently have no homes (of those 4.7 million, only about 4000 (if that) were actually allowed to come live in the U.S., many of which without the rest of their family)... We never talk about the Iraqis who were killed, we only mention the U.S. soldiers who were killed (4000 vs 1.2 million)... We never talk about the innocents killed in Afghanistan, and that are now being killed in Pakistan due to 9/11.

America has created a new definition of 'terror attack'. To inflict this much suffering and resentment in this world is beyond words to describe. Unfortunately, many people here say that this is just because we have a shitty president, but in reality, it's not. It's because of the American people that this happened. Keep in mind that Bush was reelected in 2004. Keep in mind that we are the ones who play the major factor in the country. Protests, demonstrations, etc, have become meaningless and almost nonexistent compared to the ones that people had during the Vietnam War, the Korean War, etc... It's really a sad day to see the Americans stand silent, while millions die, millions more become displaced and live in the most harsh conditions possible, due to this country.

Not only do we forget people abroad, but even in our own country. On this day we're so quick to remember words like "patriotism", but we seem to forget the fact that after 9/11, the constitution became more of an idea, but not put into practice.

Pre-9/11: "A 2000 Gallup poll showed that a majority of the American public acknowledged that profiling existed, and that 81 percent disapproved."

Post-9/11: "A majority of Americans, according to an Oct. 1, 2001 Gallup poll, said people of Arab descent should "undergo special, more intensive security checks before boarding planes in the U.S.""

the PATRIOT ACT is one of the most disturbing laws to ever pass. you wanna justify it by saying "we were scared after 9/11" fine, but it's still continuing? what the fuck? this administration has lied to you so many times, it's hard to keep track, and yet people still never question anything about 9/11. they never question the response. they never question motives related to 9/11. everyone here is willing to swallow it up. earlier today, I bumped a thread made by byrnzie, which simply showed other events in history that happened on 9/11. I get a response as if I had done something wrong to bump it.

give me a fucking break. the fact that people in this country would rather talk about lipstick and Sarah Palin's potential dick over the millions of refugees, the thousands of people suffering in the Middle East DUE TO OUR POLICIES is so nauseating that I really lose hope in the American public.

"Just wait till November, when a new administration comes in, then we'll make change."

so we sit by idly as Bush invades Pakistan just because in 2 months we MIGHT have a new administration in? and if we don't, what do we do? not to mention the fact that Barack Obama supports many of these shitty policies. Not to mention the fact that Barack Obama has not yet talked about the Iraqi people, the Palestinian people, the Afghan, the Pakistanis, etc.

Seriously people, wake the fuck up. 9/11 should not be about sitting here crying patriotism while praising these Afghan excursions. It should be about deciding what to do to change the shitty policies we've been implementing that have caused millions of other people to die. How can someone here support the war in Afghanistan to capture Bin Laden even though it killed thousands of people? For all arguments' sake, let's say Bin Laden did 9/11. He wanted to send a message to Bush and the American people. How is the war in Afghanistan any different? We went in there and knowingly killed thousands of people to send a message to Bin Laden and the Afghan people. Iraq was not much different other than the fact that we killed over a million people, and displaced 16% of the population. There are tens of thousands of Palestinian people living in Iraq who now have literally NO country to go to. Out of 30-40,000, the United States has accepted.... 9.

We read out lists of people killed in 9/11, but we don't read out the lists of people killed or lives ruined DUE to 9/11.

this shit makes me sick. if Osama bin Laden could be killed, but you would have to kill a couple more, a few hundred more, or a thousand more innocent people, would you do it? does it matter if the people are American or Afghan? seriously.

thank you outlaw. i wish more people thought like this. speak your mind often ... and a definite "no" would be the answer to your last two questions.

OffHeGoes29

_outlaw wrote:

OffHeGoes, I'm afraid you contradict yourself many times:


you say there is no good war, but what do you call this:

Is a "justified war" all that different than a "good war"? These terms are just bullshit ways to try to paint yourself as 'not supporting war in general' and yet you support 'certain necessary wars'... very paradoxical.

you use too many vague terms that are just conjured up by the media... the "war on terror" is just abstract (and quite an oxymoron)... "finish the job in Iraq"... what does that even mean? what is the job? democracy and liberation? freedom? what job do you want us to finish?

You will continue to support war, that has caused thousands if not tens of thousands of death, all on the government's version of 9/11. I'm not suggesting 9/11 was an inside job, that wasn't the point of this. however, you cannot deny the fact that it's wrong to invade a sovereign nation to seek out a terrorist by killing civilians just because he killed YOUR civilians.

But you just said you support the war in Afghanistan...

But you just said the war in Afghanistan is justifiable.
with war, comes innocent deaths.
in a justifiable war, wouldn't the deaths be justifiable as well?

who are the good guys and who are the bad guys?

first of all, why can no one on this forum spell RIDICULOUS correctly?

secondly, you don't kill 1 million civilians in Iraq by mistake?. You think the thousands of people in Afghanistan we killed was by mistake? do we accidentally bomb weddings? villages? houses?

but you JUST said this war is justifiable... lol...

yes. I do. I know MANY people. if you don't think the PATRIOT ACT infringes on your rights, then you're insane.

Sorry about that, I honestly didn't mean to skip your comment.

So here I go.....

A "good war/bad war" is all the same, people die; a lot of innocent people die needlessly. That is the reality of it, which is well established at this point. People usually compare a "Good war", or a "justifiable war" with conflicts like WW2, and a "bad war" or "quagmire" with conflicts like Vietnam. The reasons behind the war may differ, but the end result is the same, people die horrible deaths in the name of Religion, country, etc. The act of war in its self is horrible, and any one that wants to go to war just for the sake of being in conflict is sick. I don't want to be at war with anyone, however; there are cases where warfare is the last resort. It would be one thing if Afghanistan was run by a civilized government that had trouble dealing with extremist. But it was run by a brutal government that killed and maimed people, and they were not going to come to the table of diplomacy with any one. So in this case, invading Afghanistan is completely justifiable. Supporting and harboring terrorist that not only attacked us, but other countries with in the Middle East, Africa, and South East Asia, was a threat to the whole world.

The horrible part of fighting this is the fact that there is no identifiable enemy, they don't ware uniforms, and don't separate themselves from the public. This has always been an issue through out history to fight a war like this. Usually, the small force that hides with in the civilian population does this for protection. They know if the fight was to ever be taken to them, innocent people will get killed. They plan for that, so CNN can show the damage of a guided bomb that took out a school instead of an insurgent hide out. It’s close to impossible to get accurate information as to where these guys hide out. It’s a type of warfare that puts civilians in the middle, and conventional tactics don't work. The only way to win something like this is to get the civilians on our side to increase the accuracy of our efforts.

For my sanity and the length of this post, if you want to continue this conversation and pick apart my ideas further, you can PM me. Sorry for the spelling, I try to spell check as much as possible, but I'm not perfect.

So to try and answer the important part of your question, nothing about war is good, but it can be necessary to reach some level of peace down the road.

Oh, PM about the people you know who had their rights infringed on by the Patriot Act, I really want to know the details, it might change my mind?

OffHeGoes29

_outlaw wrote:

guilt by association? are you kidding?

The government isn't out to get EVERYONE, however they have been targeting many people who are innocent... to put it simply, it's common day McCarthyism.

So you don't care if they waste tax money, that could feed entire families, to watch people like you who are completely innocent?

Well that’s usually how they get their facts is to question anyone that MAY BE involved. There is no reason for them to keep some one and infringe their rights, but I would expect to get questioned by the police or FBI if my friend was in the mob.

I don't want my money to feed families...sorry. That’s one of the reason I don't see eye to eye with Dems. I have the right to feel that way. And I was trying to explain that they are not going to waste their time and budget on people like you and me. I'll clarify next time

Cosmo

OffHeGoes29 wrote:

I respect your opinion on this, but do you really think we are there to kill civilians to send a message? I agree with you totally that America hasn't done enough to voice their opinion, but to be honest, if it doesn't effect their every day lives, they don't care. The only reason people have a negative opinion of the war now is because of the media's bias. People don't care as long as it’s not them, or their friends and family members that have to go to war. Very few protests and public out cry were heard when we invaded Afghanistan, and even up to the first couple months of the Iraq war. Why didn't we hear of Cindy Sheehan before her son was sent to Iraq?

The reality is war is horrible, and there is no good war or bad war. It’s always going to be a fact of life as long as people inhabit the earth. We can do our best to prevent it, but it’s unrealistic to think the whole world will join in on peace any time soon, we can still try though.

I feel our presence in Afghanistan is completely justified. Iraq never had any value in the war on terror, but we made a horrible mistake and have to bear the responsibility of finishing the job there, like it or not. And until there is irrefutable proof that 9/11 was an inside job by the government (and no one here has that kind of proof), I will continue to support our and NATO's efforts there.

...
You cannot blame this on the 'media'. The American people didn't need any media to tell them to protest when the army drafted their sons to fight and die in Viet Nam. Without the draft... Americans think the only thing they need to do is slap a magnet on the back of their car. We are placing our soldiers through a meat grinder of deployments and re-deployments and re-deployments and when they come home all fucked up... we say, "Fuck you.. suck it up and get back to work... or just get away from me."
No one except the soldiers and their families are bearing the brunt of this war. Hell.. we aren't even paying for this war... our kids and their kids will be... how is that being responsible? For every War funding bill... $140 Billion dollars... our taxes should be increased to cover it. WE should at least... take on some of the financial pains if we are to expect our uniformed military people to take on the physical and emotional pains.
It's easy for anyone to support the war... by doing nothing. How about paying your fair share for the $1 trillion and counting that we've racked up since 2003. See how much 'support' this war gets after that.

g under p

OffHeGoes29 wrote:

I think you will be ok

OffHeGoes29 wrote:

I'm sorry to hear about your friend, what was he doing that got the attention of the Government in the first place? And all the things you predicted about the future is pure speculation. The government is not going to waste its time and money worrying about you and me, and even the "Moving Train". Has anyone here had the FBI SWAT team bust down your door for posting here? How about maybe just a simple letter or phone call to intimidate? I do not know the Patriot Act as in depth as some of you might, but I don't believe the government really cares about whats posted here, unless you're going to be stupid and specifically say something incriminating. This is the same type of fear and ignorance that people get sucked into. The Patriot Act should be closely monitored to insure its power is not abused. I don't care if the government looks into my porn watching, buying habits, and message pit posting, they are wasting their time if that was true.

The Patriot Act can be a dangerous tool if used the wrong way, so it needs to be monitored to insure we benefit from it, and not victims of it.

Thanks for the support. Wheeeew man I was so worried that I would never get those passports.

This to me was a direct reaction as to what the Patriot Act can do to those who are innocent like my musician friend Michael Franti and His band Spearhead. Here's an article on some of what happened to him, his band and his management company...

The Man and Michael Franti
Are federal agents surveilling the singer-rapper-activist?

What happened here in this article and that he's an activist with a band member who wore t-shirts during concerts that said *FUCK BUSH*

The Patriot Act to me is basically a law that is used to intimidate, to scare off those who dare to resist or those intend or want to protest. I myself have had my truck tags (STYHUMN) here in DC at protest marches taken down by government agents again as a form of intimidation. I went unto the march with my daughter and paid them no mind.

Peace

OffHeGoes29

g under p wrote:

Thanks for the support. Wheeeew man I was so worried that I would never get those passports.

This to me was a direct reaction as to what the Patriot Act can do to those who are innocent like my musician friend Michael Franti and His band Spearhead. Here's an article on some of what happened to him, his band and his management company...

The Man and Michael Franti
Are federal agents surveilling the singer-rapper-activist?

What happened here in this article and that he's an activist with a band member who wore t-shirts during concerts that said *FUCK BUSH*

The Patriot Act to me is basically a law that is used to intimidate, to scare off those who dare to resist or those intend or want to protest. I myself have had my truck tags (STYHUMN) here in DC at protest marches taken down by government agents again as a form of intimidation. I went unto the march with my daughter and paid them no mind.

Peace

Government Agents took your sign away. You saw them do this?

OffHeGoes29

Cosmo wrote:

...
You cannot blame this on the 'media'. The American people didn't need any media to tell them to protest when the army drafted their sons to fight and die in Viet Nam. Without the draft... Americans think the only thing they need to do is slap a magnet on the back of their car. We are placing our soldiers through a meat grinder of deployments and re-deployments and re-deployments and when they come home all fucked up... we say, "Fuck you.. suck it up and get back to work... or just get away from me."
No one except the soldiers and their families are bearing the brunt of this war. Hell.. we aren't even paying for this war... our kids and their kids will be... how is that being responsible? For every War funding bill... $140 Billion dollars... our taxes should be increased to cover it. WE should at least... take on some of the financial pains if we are to expect our uniformed military people to take on the physical and emotional pains.
It's easy for anyone to support the war... by doing nothing. How about paying your fair share for the $1 trillion and counting that we've racked up since 2003. See how much 'support' this war gets after that.

Yes they did, the news brought home the progress of the war even during that time. I might be wrong, the Draft was active on and off since the end of WW2, before the Vietnam started.

g under p

OffHeGoes29 wrote:

Government Agents took your sign away. You saw them do this?

Yes right here in DC, they did that to my license's plate and my friends by writing down our plates. They also did this in NYC for the RNC convention in '04 by NYPD. I was there for both of these marches.

Here's a some info about it from Democracy Now...

NYPD Forced to Release RNC Spy Files
A federal judge has ordered the New York City police to release about 600 pages of internal documents that detail the department’s wide-ranging surveillance of activists ahead of the 2004 Republican National Convention. The judge ordered the first batch of documents to be made public following a lawsuit by the New York Civil Liberties Union and the New York Times. Donna Lieberman of the NYCLU: “What’s shocking is the breadth of the surveillance activity. They were in lots of different cities across the nation and internationally. We have in here of people doing grafitti in Germany in Croatia,. We have reports from Berkeley, from Baltimore, from Syracuse, from Fresno. The police department was all over the country, all over the globe.” The city is still fighting to keep secret other documents related to the convention including the raw intelligence collected by the police department. According to the New York Times these unfiltered reports include more detailed information about the groups and individuals that were watched and in some cases disclose how the undercover officers conducted the surveillance.

Full story here...watch/listen/read...NYPD Spy Tactics Exposed: Democracy Now! Airs Exclusive Police Surveillance Footage Recorded From Blimps, Helicopters and “Lipstick Cams” During Republican National Convention

It's all about trying to intimidate and scare those who DARE to stand up and protest anything.

Peace

Peace

OffHeGoes29

g under p wrote:

Yes right here in DC, they did that to my license's plate and my friends by writing down our plates. They also did this in NYC for the RNC convention in '04 by NYPD. I was there for both of these marches.

Here's a some info about it from Democracy Now...



Full story here...watch/listen/read...NYPD Spy Tactics Exposed: Democracy Now! Airs Exclusive Police Surveillance Footage Recorded From Blimps, Helicopters and “Lipstick Cams” During Republican National Convention

It's all about trying to intimidate and scare those who DARE to stand up and protest anything.

Peace

Peace

Sorry man, you're in public, you have no right of privacy. If I wanted to write down every plate, year, make and model of a car or truck that passes by my house, I can. They record that information incase something where to happen, they can narrow down people to investigate. I see nothing wrong with them doing that, and that’s not intimidation. That’s no different than surveillance cameras in a public setting.

How is anyone going to take people seriously about their position when they choose the destroy public and Privet property at the RNC or act like fucking savage animals to get their point across? I know some of you here think that’s the way to express your opinion, but to tell you the truth, its hypocritical. Its intimidation when a crowd destroys stuff and all most riots because of a police presence. They are no different then the government that intimidates them.

It drives me crazy, its a paranoid hysteria but on the opposite end of the political spectrum. Lets get a grip and meet in the middle of this. Nothing is black and white, right or left. The world is not that simple.....

I've been posting a lot more here due to the fact that people seem to be loosing their minds recently over this election, over another "4 years of Bush" or "Obama is a terrorist" bullshit.

g under p

The Patriot Act to me was signed in a month after 9/II to keep people in line, to intimidate and starting a steady slope of losing our rights like Habeas Corpus. Until it hits you and your family or friends you'll never truly understand what it's all about and what it was intended to do.

I'm glad you feel quite comfortable about The Patriot Act many others in this land don't.

Peace

Cosmo

OffHeGoes29 wrote:

Yes they did, the news brought home the progress of the war even during that time. I might be wrong, the Draft was active on and off since the end of WW2, before the Vietnam started.

...
Okay... so does this mean reporting on the events in Viet Nam where our military forces are involved and being killed is a bad thing? If they weren't reporting what was going on over there... then, the American people would have been okay with the war? Are we better off just getting reports from our military... from our government? And if there was only the military and Government reporting on the events... then, everything in Iraq would be as rosey as they tell us it is? Isn't that how it works in places like Iran and North Korea? I'm not sure where you are going with this.
As for the Draft... what about it? I only remember Viet Nam... WWII and Korea was before my time. I remember my brother's friends getting that notice and being worried sick they would come for him. We weren't rich enough to dodge the draft by paying a college tuition. And it turns out... some of his friends did not make it back and many of them came home all fucked up.
...
Bottom line... the media does NOT send people to war (except for the Spanish/American War). The Government, specifically Congress has that power... unless they surrender that power to the President.

OffHeGoes29

Cosmo wrote:

...
Okay... so does this mean reporting on the events in Viet Nam where our military forces are involved and being killed is a bad thing? If they weren't reporting what was going on over there... then, the American people would have been okay with the war? Are we better off just getting reports from our military... from our government? And if there was only the military and Government reporting on the events... then, everything in Iraq would be as rosey as they tell us it is? Isn't that how it works in places like Iran and North Korea? I'm not sure where you are going with this.
As for the Draft... what about it? I only remember Viet Nam... WWII and Korea was before my time. I remember my brother's friends getting that notice and being worried sick they would come for him. We weren't rich enough to dodge the draft by paying a college tuition. And it turns out... some of his friends did not make it back and many of them came home all fucked up.
...
Bottom line... the media does NOT send people to war (except for the Spanish/American War). The Government, specifically Congress has that power... unless they surrender that power to the President.

The media has a great deal of influence on the mass population. The coverage during that time was brought to the home for the first time on evening news, only before that was radio. I truly don't know if the media was bias or not at the time, I wasn't alive to see it.

My point is, the media has a great deal of influence over the US and World populations as to which side they want you to take. If we had the same media coverage of today back in the beginning part of WW2, America would be sickened by our progress to liberate Europe and the Pacific. I'm not saying that censored news is the way to go to pacify people, but report the truth.

If 4000+ people died in Iraq, report that. Report the horrible things, but they also need to see all of the good things we have done as well. We need the truth in the media. They tell you what they want you to hear. This is not crack pot conspiracy theorist ideology, but anyone that has been apart of something that’s made the news or know someone who has, knows the media doesn't report the whole thing.

For example, I answered a question from a woman who worked for a Phoenix AZ news paper. She asked me as I enter a book store what I thought of Bill Clinton's new book. So I told her word for word "I don't have an opinion on Bill Clinton, I was too young to gain any kind of opinion on his presidency". She then asked me what I did for a living and told me she might quote it in the paper, which I was fine with that. So next Sunday I open the paper and there it is: "David (last name), a member of the US Air Force, "doesn't care" about what his former Commander and Chief has to say".

What the fuck, I never hinted towards any kind of bad comment towards Bill Clinton, nor was I even in the Military during his presidency. If my bosses read that shit at the time, I would have got into a lot of trouble for by passing public affairs. It wouldn't have cared if they quoted me word for word.

So my point being, if you're going to report innocent people that where killed in combat, you need to report the other good things that happen.

"The whole truth, and nothing but the truth"

Sorry, I had to use it.