“The conservative government is said to be keen to avoid angering Washington over the issue.”
Nice. Harper IS a lapdog...
I realize that our ties to the US economy are the main reason we don’t want to piss them off….but enough is enough. We should be promoting other markets instead of tying our lifelines to a sinking ship by appeasing them at every turn….the energy crisis and our bountiful resources are putting us in a much better bargaining position with the US, we don't need to keep bending over for them. anyway...
I don’t have a problem with US soldiers coming here before a draft…the Iraq war is unjust, illegal, immoral, and crooked as fuck. The US military did not sign up for what they are doing now….and, as mentioned above, the National Guard DEFINITELY didn’t sign up for that. I keep reading that Iraqi refugee family example in the media up here… We wouldn’t be so worried about Iraqi refugees if US soldiers were deserting (or rebelling) en masse.
As far as not questioning superiors in the military…total bullshit. Read your constitution, and the oath that is taken when joining the military.
"I,____________, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to the regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God"
The Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) 809.ART.90 (20), makes it clear that military personnel need to obey the "lawful command of his superior officer," 891.ART.91 (2), the "lawful order of a warrant officer", 892.ART.92 (1) the "lawful general order", 892.ART.92 (2) "lawful order". In each case, military personnel have an obligation and a duty to only obey Lawful orders and indeed have an obligation to disobey Unlawful orders, including orders by the president that do not comply with the UCMJ. The moral and legal obligation is to the U.S. Constitution and not to those who would issue unlawful orders, especially if those orders are in direct violation of the Constitution and the UCMJ.
What is this Constitution you speak of.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
There is no need to single out Harper here ... Another PM would do the same thing. There is a long history of us having to appease our larger neighbor to the South. Harper is not suddenly the problem.
Don't agree that another PM would do the same thing ...but we definitely have a long history of appeasement.
I don’t have a problem with US soldiers coming here before a draft…the Iraq war is unjust, illegal, immoral, and crooked as fuck. The US military did not sign up for what they are doing now….and, as mentioned above, the National Guard DEFINITELY didn’t sign up for that. I keep reading that Iraqi refugee family example in the media up here… We wouldn’t be so worried about Iraqi refugees if US soldiers were deserting (or rebelling) en masse.
As far as not questioning superiors in the military…total bullshit. Read your constitution, and the oath that is taken when joining the military.
"I,____________, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to the regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God"
The Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) 809.ART.90 (20), makes it clear that military personnel need to obey the "lawful command of his superior officer," 891.ART.91 (2), the "lawful order of a warrant officer", 892.ART.92 (1) the "lawful general order", 892.ART.92 (2) "lawful order". In each case, military personnel have an obligation and a duty to only obey Lawful orders and indeed have an obligation to disobey Unlawful orders, including orders by the president that do not comply with the UCMJ. The moral and legal obligation is to the U.S. Constitution and not to those who would issue unlawful orders, especially if those orders are in direct violation of the Constitution and the UCMJ.
So if a US soldier signs up for the military and then decides what they are doing is wrong and wants to protest, he should do the time in jail as a sign of protest, not hide out in Canada and expect our country to bail him out.
So if a US soldier signs up for the military and then decides what they are doing is wrong and wants to protest, he should do the time in jail as a sign of protest, not hide out in Canada and expect our country to bail him out.
Not sure how you’re defining ‘bail him out’? Do you mean “not deport him”? I doubt these soldiers would move here as permanent welfare-reliant citizens or expect state funded legal assistance…
They can protest a lot more effectively from Canada than from jail.
I have no problem helping out someone with the integrity to do the right thing in a situation like this…
Edit: so if the US military is engaged in an illegal action and a soldiers opposes, you think he should go to jail as a form of protest? That’s messed…what exactly are they doing to deserve jail time?
Not sure how you’re defining ‘bail him out’? Do you mean “not deport him”? I doubt these soldiers would move here as permanent welfare-reliant citizens or expect state funded legal assistance…
They can protest a lot more effectively from Canada than from jail.
I have no problem helping out someone with the integrity to do the right thing in a situation like this…
Edit: so if the US military is engaged in an illegal action and a soldiers opposes, you think he should go to jail as a form of protest? That’s messed…what exactly are they doing to deserve jail time?
But how many of them actually object to the war on moral grounds compared to how many of them who signed up for the military happily collected the all the bonuses and benefits thinking they would serve their time and never have to war. And now that there country is at war they are like "oh crap I don't really want to get shot at" and now are trying to bail on their commitment.
Not to mention what if someone else in the US thinks that the penalty for armed robbery in the US is too high so he runs to Canada. Are we supposed to accept him as a refugee too?
And as far as going to jail, I do think if you feel so strongly about something that you think is wrong and immoral and want to take a stand against it you should take responsibility for your actions, its called civil disobedience.
Plus as much as people throw the phrase 'illegal war" around I am not really sure how it is illegal. Stupid idea of course, but I always though that the way the US and most governments work is that if the president feels that another country is a threat to national security then he has the authority to use the military. If he felt that Iraq was a threat and congress agreed with him (you know the system of checks and balances) then I am not sure how it is illegal.
But how many of them actually object to the war on moral grounds compared to how many of them who signed up for the military happily collected the all the bonuses and benefits thinking they would serve their time and never have to war. And now that there country is at war they are like "oh crap I don't really want to get shot at" and now are trying to bail on their commitment.
I'm sure there are military personel that fit both the moral and 'cowardly' descriptions...it's my opinion that they should all be saying no, but I don't see a US mass-mutiny happening anytime soon....unless there is a draft. If there was a draft, it would mean they were going to invade another country...if that was the case, I'd support the dodgers as well; they have no reason to invade another country.
Not to mention what if someone else in the US thinks that the penalty for armed robbery in the US is too high so he runs to Canada. Are we supposed to accept him as a refugee too?
Isn't that exactly what we're talking aboot?
oops...not armed robbery in the US, armed robbery in the middle east.
Are you really comparing people fleeing prosecution of a violent crime, to people fleeing persecution for not wanting to commit violent crime?
And as far as going to jail, I do think if you feel so strongly about something that you think is wrong and immoral and want to take a stand against it you should take responsibility for your actions, its called civil disobedience.
Plus as much as people throw the phrase 'illegal war" around I am not really sure how it is illegal. Stupid idea of course, but I always though that the way the US and most governments work is that if the president feels that another country is a threat to national security then he has the authority to use the military. If he felt that Iraq was a threat and congress agreed with him (you know the system of checks and balances) then I am not sure how it is illegal.
Good point on the civil disobedience.... I'm unsure how many US soldiers have gone this route? makes me wonder how much press coverage this form of protest would be given... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ehren_Watada
I can only speculate as to why more american soldiers aren't following this guy's lead.
As for the legality of actions in Iraq...On a domestic level, I guess the question they (Americans) need answered is whether BushCo. knowingly misled congress (and the public) in order to go to war?
... in keeping with US tradition, we will ignore and avoid discussion of UN law and protest when it involves their military
Check out the Watada case...the US army can't even prove the legality of the war to themselves! He was given a mistrial because the legality of the war was a political issue that could not be decided in a military court...
Comments
What is this Constitution you speak of.
exactly
So if a US soldier signs up for the military and then decides what they are doing is wrong and wants to protest, he should do the time in jail as a sign of protest, not hide out in Canada and expect our country to bail him out.
It would mean a lot more in 1862.
for the least they could possibly do
They can protest a lot more effectively from Canada than from jail.
I have no problem helping out someone with the integrity to do the right thing in a situation like this…
Edit: so if the US military is engaged in an illegal action and a soldiers opposes, you think he should go to jail as a form of protest? That’s messed…what exactly are they doing to deserve jail time?
But how many of them actually object to the war on moral grounds compared to how many of them who signed up for the military happily collected the all the bonuses and benefits thinking they would serve their time and never have to war. And now that there country is at war they are like "oh crap I don't really want to get shot at" and now are trying to bail on their commitment.
Not to mention what if someone else in the US thinks that the penalty for armed robbery in the US is too high so he runs to Canada. Are we supposed to accept him as a refugee too?
And as far as going to jail, I do think if you feel so strongly about something that you think is wrong and immoral and want to take a stand against it you should take responsibility for your actions, its called civil disobedience.
Plus as much as people throw the phrase 'illegal war" around I am not really sure how it is illegal. Stupid idea of course, but I always though that the way the US and most governments work is that if the president feels that another country is a threat to national security then he has the authority to use the military. If he felt that Iraq was a threat and congress agreed with him (you know the system of checks and balances) then I am not sure how it is illegal.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxMOGgUiCLw
I'm sure there are military personel that fit both the moral and 'cowardly' descriptions...it's my opinion that they should all be saying no, but I don't see a US mass-mutiny happening anytime soon....unless there is a draft. If there was a draft, it would mean they were going to invade another country...if that was the case, I'd support the dodgers as well; they have no reason to invade another country.
Isn't that exactly what we're talking aboot?
oops...not armed robbery in the US, armed robbery in the middle east.
Are you really comparing people fleeing prosecution of a violent crime, to people fleeing persecution for not wanting to commit violent crime?
Good point on the civil disobedience.... I'm unsure how many US soldiers have gone this route? makes me wonder how much press coverage this form of protest would be given...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ehren_Watada
I can only speculate as to why more american soldiers aren't following this guy's lead.
As for the legality of actions in Iraq...On a domestic level, I guess the question they (Americans) need answered is whether BushCo. knowingly misled congress (and the public) in order to go to war?
... in keeping with US tradition, we will ignore and avoid discussion of UN law and protest when it involves their military
Check out the Watada case...the US army can't even prove the legality of the war to themselves! He was given a mistrial because the legality of the war was a political issue that could not be decided in a military court...