'Tell us who the terrorists are if you want the doctor'

fuck

"Seriously ill Palestinian patients are being pressured to collaborate with Israeli intelligence by informing on militant and other activities in return for being allowed out of Gaza for medical treatment a report says today."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/tell-us-who-the-terrorists-are-if-you-want-the-doctor-884245.html

FiveB247x

This obviously isn't the best solution and the wrong message to send, but even in some minute way, don't or can't you see in some respect for the necessity of people who want peace (in Palestine or the Middle East in general) to try and stop or end the terror groups from falsely representing them or their hopes at peace?

slightofjeff

You really hate Israel, huh?

cincybearcat

slightofjeff wrote:

You really hate Israel, huh?

Understatement.

fuck

FiveB247x wrote:

This obviously isn't the best solution and the wrong message to send, but even in some minute way, don't or can't you see in some respect for the necessity of people who want peace (in Palestine or the Middle East in general) to try and stop or end the terror groups from falsely representing them or their hopes at peace?

These "terror groups" you speak of have given their terms of peace - these terms, in fact, are agreed upon by the entire world except for the U.S. and Israel.

saying this "isn't the best solution" is a major understatement. this is absolutely atrocious.

If the Israelis want peace, they know what they have to do. The problem is, they do not want peace unless it means the Palestinians giving up everything.

fuck

slightofjeff wrote:

You really hate Israel, huh?

That's your response to an article like this?

so if I'm one of these Palestinians being rejected medical care unless I give them information leading to terrorists, the only thing that people would say in the world is something like this quote?

Snake

Man its not a matter of stopping resistance and negotiating with Israel. Israel doesnt want peace, they have a a position of power over the Palestinian people. The reason why the Palestinians support Hammas is because they are fighting for them. Of course im not saying everything they do is ok they have done things that are wrong. But its not a matter of Israel vs Palestine to me, it doesnt matter who you are, or whether your cause is 'right' or 'wrong', it is wrong to oppress people like that. I have a friend there who has seen what the Israeli soldiers do, and they are arrogant and condescending. But thats not all the Israelis, there are plenty who are against the occupation, (illegal occupation) and they speak out.

slightofjeff

_outlaw wrote:

That's your response to an article like this?

It could pretty much be my response to every single thread you start on this board. You play that one note really, really well though.

FiveB247x

You're making excuses for terror groups who in many circustances target innocent people. Excusing violence doesn't make a situation ok and merely saying, "they give their terms" is a massive cop-out. Justifying violence against any group of innocent people isn't acceptible, no matter if they're Israeli, Palestinian or whatever. If you don't take accountability and responsibility for such wrong-doing, you're just as guilty of those bringing your fate.

_outlaw wrote:

These "terror groups" you speak of have given their terms of peace - these terms, in fact, are agreed upon by the entire world except for the U.S. and Israel.

saying this "isn't the best solution" is a major understatement. this is absolutely atrocious.

If the Israelis want peace, they know what they have to do. The problem is, they do not want peace unless it means the Palestinians giving up everything.

fuck

FiveB247x wrote:

You're making excuses for terror groups who in many circustances target innocent people. Excusing violence doesn't make a situation ok and merely saying, "they give their terms" is a massive cop-out. Justifying violence against any group of innocent people isn't acceptible, no matter if they're Israeli, Palestinian or whatever. If you don't take accountability and responsibility for such wrong-doing, you're just as guilty of those bringing your fate.

I'm not making excuses. However, you are targeting the Palestinian resistance groups by making overstatements. Palestinians "target civilians" is an overstatement:
1. they target Israeli settlers living illegally on stolen land.
2. these Israeli settlers VERY OFTEN attack innocent Palestinians as well (as shown in several other threads).
3. the attacks on civilians by palestinians is extremely minimal when compared to attacks by Israelis on Palestinians...

If you think the Palestinians should drop their weapons and live in an occupation without resisting, then you're completely delusional. that just does not happen. if the Israelis want these "terrorists" then stopping people who need medical care in order to catch them is absolutely ridiculous. all they have to do is withdraw to the '67 borders.

and saying that these Palestinians need to take responsibility - what the fuck are you talking about? these are Palestinians who need medical care. what should they take responsibility for?

FiveB247x

Everything you've listed is merely an excuse of saying why it is ok for such actions when it simply is not. Violence is not the answer in any manner. Whether you think it is justified does not matter. If people sit on their hands and allow it to happen, they're guilty of letting these groups ruin their chance at peace. The specifics in numbers, justifications or similar doesn't make it ok. Violence in any fashion or depth only causes more violence in return. That is reality and something you wish to ignore. You make statements like, "all they have to do is do x or y", but in reality, no one has to do anything. Life isn't fair, to the victor goes the spoils and justice is blind. How bout you come back to reality and acknowledge that? If you or anyone else is serious about peace, you stop living in the "what should be" and start dealing with "what is" and "can be".

_outlaw wrote:

I'm not making excuses. However, you are targeting the Palestinian resistance groups by making overstatements. Palestinians "target civilians" is an overstatement:
1. they target Israeli settlers living illegally on stolen land.
2. these Israeli settlers VERY OFTEN attack innocent Palestinians as well (as shown in several other threads).
3. the attacks on civilians by palestinians is extremely minimal when compared to attacks by Israelis on Palestinians...

If you think the Palestinians should drop their weapons and live in an occupation without resisting, then you're completely delusional. that just does not happen. if the Israelis want these "terrorists" then stopping people who need medical care in order to catch them is absolutely ridiculous. all they have to do is withdraw to the '67 borders.

and saying that these Palestinians need to take responsibility - what the fuck are you talking about? these are Palestinians who need medical care. what should they take responsibility for?

fuck

FiveB247x wrote:

Everything you've listed is merely an excuse of saying why it is ok for such actions when it simply is not. Violence is not the answer in any manner. Whether you think it is justified does not matter.

I didn't justify anything. I pointed out that the violence from the Palestinians is minimal at best compared to the violence from the Israelis... it is not a pressing issue that should be discussed. Being denied access to medical care? yeah, that's a serious issue. being under an occupation? yeah, that's a serious issue. having countless people innocently killed?

well, what do you think?

If people sit on their hands and allow it to happen, they're guilty of letting these groups ruin their chance at peace. The specifics in numbers, justifications or similar doesn't make it ok. Violence in any fashion or depth only causes more violence in return. That is reality and something you wish to ignore.

No, this is something YOU wish to ignore. the fact that the violence from the ISRAELIS is what cause the violence from the Palestinians in return.

You make statements like, "all they have to do is do x or y", but in reality, no one has to do anything.

then don't complain about the Palestinians fighting back. If you don't mind excusing an occupation and countless deaths by saying "life isn't fair" then go ahead.

Life isn't fair, to the victor goes the spoils and justice is blind. How bout you come back to reality and acknowledge that? If you or anyone else is serious about peace, you stop living in the "what should be" and start dealing with "what is" and "can be".

so Israel should be excused because it's not realistic that they should be held accountable for their actions? it's not realistic that they would give up the occupation?

you know, if people said that about the Nazis in World War II (which people DID say), then I'm sure you would agree then as well, right?

FiveB247x

Once again, you find it ok if one side does x, then the other side can do y. This is what you call a cycle and unless one side changes or breaks the cycle, it continues. We're 50+ yrs in and merely saying one side is at fault and one side is innocent doesn't create a solution. If passing blame is "the solution", then maybe such things matter, but if you want a peace, other steps need to be taken.

fuck

FiveB247x wrote:

Once again, you find it ok if one side does x, then the other side can do y. This is what you call a cycle and unless one side changes or breaks the cycle, it continues. We're 50+ yrs in and merely saying one side is at fault and one side is innocent doesn't create a solution. If passing blame is "the solution", then maybe such things matter, but if you want a peace, other steps need to be taken.

Read this:

Snake wrote:

Man its not a matter of stopping resistance and negotiating with Israel. Israel doesnt want peace, they have a a position of power over the Palestinian people. The reason why the Palestinians support Hammas is because they are fighting for them. Of course im not saying everything they do is ok they have done things that are wrong. But its not a matter of Israel vs Palestine to me, it doesnt matter who you are, or whether your cause is 'right' or 'wrong', it is wrong to oppress people like that. I have a friend there who has seen what the Israeli soldiers do, and they are arrogant and condescending. But thats not all the Israelis, there are plenty who are against the occupation, (illegal occupation) and they speak out.

Israel is in a position of POWER. my whole point is THEY have to break this "cycle" that you keep going on about. The Palestinians are not in the position to be doing that. the Israelis are the ones who MUST start the peace process, and that is the reality of the situation. anything else you mention is irrelevant.

FiveB247x

I read it the first time and completely disagree. Waiting on the other half leaves two groups waiting in the wing.

_outlaw wrote:

Read this:



Israel is in a position of POWER. my whole point is THEY have to break this "cycle" that you keep going on about. The Palestinians are not in the position to be doing that. the Israelis are the ones who MUST start the peace process, and that is the reality of the situation. anything else you mention is irrelevant.

Collin

FiveB247x wrote:

I read it the first time and completely disagree. Waiting on the other half leaves two groups waiting in the wing.

What do you disagree with?

NMyTree

Is this not a form of terrorism?

A form that exploits and takes advantage of one of the most basic needs of human beings?

FiveB247x

If you look back at page one of this thread I think I stated my opinion on the matter. No need to repeat and repost the same info.

Collin wrote:

What do you disagree with?

Collin

FiveB247x wrote:

If you look back at page one of this thread I think I stated my opinion on the matter. No need to repeat and repost the same info.

No worries. You said you completely disagreed with it, so I'll just take your word.

Well, I think Israel does oppress the Palestinian people. They take their land, drive them out and settle, when the Palestinians react, Israel takes action too, often more cruelly and brutally than the Palestinians. But I do agree with you that violence on both side is inexcusable, that doesn't mean, however, violence isn't understandable. The Palestinian violence is understandable. Israeli violence is also understandable but it is clearly the reaction against something they caused. And it's within their power to stop their violence, illegal ways and establish peace, peacefully. They won't because they are in a position of power, back by the world's most powerful country. I agree with Snake here, and I think it is oppression and I think oppression is wrong. So, if Israel isn't in a position of power. What would you call it? Or how do you see it? And, could you give me your reasons why you think oppression is right. It seems to contradict your earlier posts.

Again, I agree with Snake and I think many Palestinians support Hamas because they are fighting for them. You disagree, fair enough, why do they support Hamas, then?

I hope you can answer my question. You might have answered them somewhere else, or talked about it with your neighbour yesterday. Just show me where I can find your opinions, or give me your neighbour's phone number and I'll get right to it

3inputchick

Youare all thinking about this issue with an american/UK mentality-

Israel has the right to defend herself.

FiveB247x

Main my point which really is the underlaying factor in all your questions is the fact that violence isn't the answer. It doesn't matter who started, did what or killed x numebr more then the other half. This problem has been going on for 50+ yrs.. both sides are wrong (some in more cases than others) and neither are innocent of any wrong-doing. In this time frame, both sides really need to stop the problems and actions which cause the other half to react with violence. Whether it's Israeli army attacks or Palestinian terror groups - the end of such things would break the cycle of violence. It doesn't matter which side makes the first move to peace (process), but once they do, the other half will follow in kind. It's what occured during the Oslo Accords (closest we've seen to a real, longterm peace agreement) and it can happen again. Merely pointing fingers, passing blame or making unrealistic demands of the other half isn't an offer which will lead to such a peace deal. If both sides sit on their hands and wait for the other to do x, y and z, the cycle merely continues. At some point in time, you have to ask yourself, is this more about deciding blame and saying who's more right or wrong or is it about creating a peace in which both can live in peace?

Collin wrote:

No worries. You said you completely disagreed with it, so I'll just take your word.

Well, I think Israel does oppress the Palestinian people. They take their land, drive them out and settle, when the Palestinians react, Israel takes action too, often more cruelly and brutally than the Palestinians. But I do agree with you that violence on both side is inexcusable, that doesn't mean, however, violence isn't understandable. The Palestinian violence is understandable. Israeli violence is also understandable but it is clearly the reaction against something they caused. And it's within their power to stop their violence, illegal ways and establish peace, peacefully. They won't because they are in a position of power, back by the world's most powerful country. I agree with Snake here, and I think it is oppression and I think oppression is wrong. So, if Israel isn't in a position of power. What would you call it? Or how do you see it? And, could you give me your reasons why you think oppression is right. It seems to contradict your earlier posts.

Again, I agree with Snake and I think many Palestinians support Hamas because they are fighting for them. You disagree, fair enough, why do they support Hamas, then?

I hope you can answer my question. You might have answered them somewhere else, or talked about it with your neighbour yesterday. Just show me where I can find your opinions, or give me your neighbour's phone number and I'll get right to it