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'Tell us who the terrorists are if you want the doctor'

fuckfuck Posts: 4,069
edited August 2008 in A Moving Train
"Seriously ill Palestinian patients are being pressured to collaborate with Israeli intelligence by informing on militant and other activities in return for being allowed out of Gaza for medical treatment a report says today."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/tell-us-who-the-terrorists-are-if-you-want-the-doctor-884245.html
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Comments

  • FiveB247xFiveB247x Posts: 2,330
    This obviously isn't the best solution and the wrong message to send, but even in some minute way, don't or can't you see in some respect for the necessity of people who want peace (in Palestine or the Middle East in general) to try and stop or end the terror groups from falsely representing them or their hopes at peace?
    CONservative governMENt

    Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
  • slightofjeffslightofjeff Posts: 7,762
    You really hate Israel, huh?
    everybody wants the most they can possibly get
    for the least they could possibly do
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 16,497
    slightofjeff wrote:
    You really hate Israel, huh?


    Understatement.
    hippiemom = goodness
  • fuckfuck Posts: 4,069
    FiveB247x wrote:
    This obviously isn't the best solution and the wrong message to send, but even in some minute way, don't or can't you see in some respect for the necessity of people who want peace (in Palestine or the Middle East in general) to try and stop or end the terror groups from falsely representing them or their hopes at peace?
    These "terror groups" you speak of have given their terms of peace - these terms, in fact, are agreed upon by the entire world except for the U.S. and Israel.

    saying this "isn't the best solution" is a major understatement. this is absolutely atrocious.

    If the Israelis want peace, they know what they have to do. The problem is, they do not want peace unless it means the Palestinians giving up everything.
  • fuckfuck Posts: 4,069
    slightofjeff wrote:
    You really hate Israel, huh?
    That's your response to an article like this?

    so if I'm one of these Palestinians being rejected medical care unless I give them information leading to terrorists, the only thing that people would say in the world is something like this quote?
  • SnakeSnake Posts: 2,605
    Man its not a matter of stopping resistance and negotiating with Israel. Israel doesnt want peace, they have a a position of power over the Palestinian people. The reason why the Palestinians support Hammas is because they are fighting for them. Of course im not saying everything they do is ok they have done things that are wrong. But its not a matter of Israel vs Palestine to me, it doesnt matter who you are, or whether your cause is 'right' or 'wrong', it is wrong to oppress people like that. I have a friend there who has seen what the Israeli soldiers do, and they are arrogant and condescending. But thats not all the Israelis, there are plenty who are against the occupation, (illegal occupation) and they speak out.
    Pirates had democracy too.

    "Its a secret to everybody."
  • slightofjeffslightofjeff Posts: 7,762
    _outlaw wrote:
    That's your response to an article like this?

    It could pretty much be my response to every single thread you start on this board. You play that one note really, really well though.
    everybody wants the most they can possibly get
    for the least they could possibly do
  • FiveB247xFiveB247x Posts: 2,330
    You're making excuses for terror groups who in many circustances target innocent people. Excusing violence doesn't make a situation ok and merely saying, "they give their terms" is a massive cop-out. Justifying violence against any group of innocent people isn't acceptible, no matter if they're Israeli, Palestinian or whatever. If you don't take accountability and responsibility for such wrong-doing, you're just as guilty of those bringing your fate.
    _outlaw wrote:
    These "terror groups" you speak of have given their terms of peace - these terms, in fact, are agreed upon by the entire world except for the U.S. and Israel.

    saying this "isn't the best solution" is a major understatement. this is absolutely atrocious.

    If the Israelis want peace, they know what they have to do. The problem is, they do not want peace unless it means the Palestinians giving up everything.
    CONservative governMENt

    Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
  • fuckfuck Posts: 4,069
    FiveB247x wrote:
    You're making excuses for terror groups who in many circustances target innocent people. Excusing violence doesn't make a situation ok and merely saying, "they give their terms" is a massive cop-out. Justifying violence against any group of innocent people isn't acceptible, no matter if they're Israeli, Palestinian or whatever. If you don't take accountability and responsibility for such wrong-doing, you're just as guilty of those bringing your fate.
    I'm not making excuses. However, you are targeting the Palestinian resistance groups by making overstatements. Palestinians "target civilians" is an overstatement:
    1. they target Israeli settlers living illegally on stolen land.
    2. these Israeli settlers VERY OFTEN attack innocent Palestinians as well (as shown in several other threads).
    3. the attacks on civilians by palestinians is extremely minimal when compared to attacks by Israelis on Palestinians...

    If you think the Palestinians should drop their weapons and live in an occupation without resisting, then you're completely delusional. that just does not happen. if the Israelis want these "terrorists" then stopping people who need medical care in order to catch them is absolutely ridiculous. all they have to do is withdraw to the '67 borders.

    and saying that these Palestinians need to take responsibility - what the fuck are you talking about? these are Palestinians who need medical care. what should they take responsibility for?
  • FiveB247xFiveB247x Posts: 2,330
    Everything you've listed is merely an excuse of saying why it is ok for such actions when it simply is not. Violence is not the answer in any manner. Whether you think it is justified does not matter. If people sit on their hands and allow it to happen, they're guilty of letting these groups ruin their chance at peace. The specifics in numbers, justifications or similar doesn't make it ok. Violence in any fashion or depth only causes more violence in return. That is reality and something you wish to ignore. You make statements like, "all they have to do is do x or y", but in reality, no one has to do anything. Life isn't fair, to the victor goes the spoils and justice is blind. How bout you come back to reality and acknowledge that? If you or anyone else is serious about peace, you stop living in the "what should be" and start dealing with "what is" and "can be".
    _outlaw wrote:
    I'm not making excuses. However, you are targeting the Palestinian resistance groups by making overstatements. Palestinians "target civilians" is an overstatement:
    1. they target Israeli settlers living illegally on stolen land.
    2. these Israeli settlers VERY OFTEN attack innocent Palestinians as well (as shown in several other threads).
    3. the attacks on civilians by palestinians is extremely minimal when compared to attacks by Israelis on Palestinians...

    If you think the Palestinians should drop their weapons and live in an occupation without resisting, then you're completely delusional. that just does not happen. if the Israelis want these "terrorists" then stopping people who need medical care in order to catch them is absolutely ridiculous. all they have to do is withdraw to the '67 borders.

    and saying that these Palestinians need to take responsibility - what the fuck are you talking about? these are Palestinians who need medical care. what should they take responsibility for?
    CONservative governMENt

    Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
  • fuckfuck Posts: 4,069
    FiveB247x wrote:
    Everything you've listed is merely an excuse of saying why it is ok for such actions when it simply is not. Violence is not the answer in any manner. Whether you think it is justified does not matter.
    I didn't justify anything. I pointed out that the violence from the Palestinians is minimal at best compared to the violence from the Israelis... it is not a pressing issue that should be discussed. Being denied access to medical care? yeah, that's a serious issue. being under an occupation? yeah, that's a serious issue. having countless people innocently killed?

    well, what do you think?
    If people sit on their hands and allow it to happen, they're guilty of letting these groups ruin their chance at peace. The specifics in numbers, justifications or similar doesn't make it ok. Violence in any fashion or depth only causes more violence in return. That is reality and something you wish to ignore.
    No, this is something YOU wish to ignore. the fact that the violence from the ISRAELIS is what cause the violence from the Palestinians in return.
    You make statements like, "all they have to do is do x or y", but in reality, no one has to do anything.
    then don't complain about the Palestinians fighting back. If you don't mind excusing an occupation and countless deaths by saying "life isn't fair" then go ahead.
    Life isn't fair, to the victor goes the spoils and justice is blind. How bout you come back to reality and acknowledge that? If you or anyone else is serious about peace, you stop living in the "what should be" and start dealing with "what is" and "can be".
    so Israel should be excused because it's not realistic that they should be held accountable for their actions? it's not realistic that they would give up the occupation?

    you know, if people said that about the Nazis in World War II (which people DID say), then I'm sure you would agree then as well, right?
  • FiveB247xFiveB247x Posts: 2,330
    Once again, you find it ok if one side does x, then the other side can do y. This is what you call a cycle and unless one side changes or breaks the cycle, it continues. We're 50+ yrs in and merely saying one side is at fault and one side is innocent doesn't create a solution. If passing blame is "the solution", then maybe such things matter, but if you want a peace, other steps need to be taken.
    CONservative governMENt

    Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
  • fuckfuck Posts: 4,069
    FiveB247x wrote:
    Once again, you find it ok if one side does x, then the other side can do y. This is what you call a cycle and unless one side changes or breaks the cycle, it continues. We're 50+ yrs in and merely saying one side is at fault and one side is innocent doesn't create a solution. If passing blame is "the solution", then maybe such things matter, but if you want a peace, other steps need to be taken.

    Read this:
    Snake wrote:
    Man its not a matter of stopping resistance and negotiating with Israel. Israel doesnt want peace, they have a a position of power over the Palestinian people. The reason why the Palestinians support Hammas is because they are fighting for them. Of course im not saying everything they do is ok they have done things that are wrong. But its not a matter of Israel vs Palestine to me, it doesnt matter who you are, or whether your cause is 'right' or 'wrong', it is wrong to oppress people like that. I have a friend there who has seen what the Israeli soldiers do, and they are arrogant and condescending. But thats not all the Israelis, there are plenty who are against the occupation, (illegal occupation) and they speak out.

    Israel is in a position of POWER. my whole point is THEY have to break this "cycle" that you keep going on about. The Palestinians are not in the position to be doing that. the Israelis are the ones who MUST start the peace process, and that is the reality of the situation. anything else you mention is irrelevant.
  • FiveB247xFiveB247x Posts: 2,330
    I read it the first time and completely disagree. Waiting on the other half leaves two groups waiting in the wing.
    _outlaw wrote:
    Read this:



    Israel is in a position of POWER. my whole point is THEY have to break this "cycle" that you keep going on about. The Palestinians are not in the position to be doing that. the Israelis are the ones who MUST start the peace process, and that is the reality of the situation. anything else you mention is irrelevant.
    CONservative governMENt

    Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
  • CollinCollin Posts: 4,931
    FiveB247x wrote:
    I read it the first time and completely disagree. Waiting on the other half leaves two groups waiting in the wing.

    What do you disagree with?
    THANK YOU, LOSTDAWG!


    naděje umírá poslední
  • NMyTreeNMyTree Posts: 2,374
    Is this not a form of terrorism?

    A form that exploits and takes advantage of one of the most basic needs of human beings?
  • FiveB247xFiveB247x Posts: 2,330
    If you look back at page one of this thread I think I stated my opinion on the matter. No need to repeat and repost the same info.
    Collin wrote:
    What do you disagree with?
    CONservative governMENt

    Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
  • CollinCollin Posts: 4,931
    FiveB247x wrote:
    If you look back at page one of this thread I think I stated my opinion on the matter. No need to repeat and repost the same info.

    No worries. You said you completely disagreed with it, so I'll just take your word.

    Well, I think Israel does oppress the Palestinian people. They take their land, drive them out and settle, when the Palestinians react, Israel takes action too, often more cruelly and brutally than the Palestinians. But I do agree with you that violence on both side is inexcusable, that doesn't mean, however, violence isn't understandable. The Palestinian violence is understandable. Israeli violence is also understandable but it is clearly the reaction against something they caused. And it's within their power to stop their violence, illegal ways and establish peace, peacefully. They won't because they are in a position of power, back by the world's most powerful country. I agree with Snake here, and I think it is oppression and I think oppression is wrong. So, if Israel isn't in a position of power. What would you call it? Or how do you see it? And, could you give me your reasons why you think oppression is right. It seems to contradict your earlier posts.

    Again, I agree with Snake and I think many Palestinians support Hamas because they are fighting for them. You disagree, fair enough, why do they support Hamas, then?

    I hope you can answer my question. You might have answered them somewhere else, or talked about it with your neighbour yesterday. Just show me where I can find your opinions, or give me your neighbour's phone number and I'll get right to it ;)
    THANK YOU, LOSTDAWG!


    naděje umírá poslední
  • 3inputchick3inputchick Posts: 845
    Youare all thinking about this issue with an american/UK mentality-

    Israel has the right to defend herself.
    A pessimist is a man who thinks all women are bad. An optimist is one who hopes they are.
  • FiveB247xFiveB247x Posts: 2,330
    Main my point which really is the underlaying factor in all your questions is the fact that violence isn't the answer. It doesn't matter who started, did what or killed x numebr more then the other half. This problem has been going on for 50+ yrs.. both sides are wrong (some in more cases than others) and neither are innocent of any wrong-doing. In this time frame, both sides really need to stop the problems and actions which cause the other half to react with violence. Whether it's Israeli army attacks or Palestinian terror groups - the end of such things would break the cycle of violence. It doesn't matter which side makes the first move to peace (process), but once they do, the other half will follow in kind. It's what occured during the Oslo Accords (closest we've seen to a real, longterm peace agreement) and it can happen again. Merely pointing fingers, passing blame or making unrealistic demands of the other half isn't an offer which will lead to such a peace deal. If both sides sit on their hands and wait for the other to do x, y and z, the cycle merely continues. At some point in time, you have to ask yourself, is this more about deciding blame and saying who's more right or wrong or is it about creating a peace in which both can live in peace?
    Collin wrote:
    No worries. You said you completely disagreed with it, so I'll just take your word.

    Well, I think Israel does oppress the Palestinian people. They take their land, drive them out and settle, when the Palestinians react, Israel takes action too, often more cruelly and brutally than the Palestinians. But I do agree with you that violence on both side is inexcusable, that doesn't mean, however, violence isn't understandable. The Palestinian violence is understandable. Israeli violence is also understandable but it is clearly the reaction against something they caused. And it's within their power to stop their violence, illegal ways and establish peace, peacefully. They won't because they are in a position of power, back by the world's most powerful country. I agree with Snake here, and I think it is oppression and I think oppression is wrong. So, if Israel isn't in a position of power. What would you call it? Or how do you see it? And, could you give me your reasons why you think oppression is right. It seems to contradict your earlier posts.

    Again, I agree with Snake and I think many Palestinians support Hamas because they are fighting for them. You disagree, fair enough, why do they support Hamas, then?

    I hope you can answer my question. You might have answered them somewhere else, or talked about it with your neighbour yesterday. Just show me where I can find your opinions, or give me your neighbour's phone number and I'll get right to it ;)
    CONservative governMENt

    Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
  • RolandTD20KdrummerRolandTD20Kdrummer Posts: 13,066
    For some it's about telling the muslims to fuck off for eternity.

    They get a high from it.

    in order to balance the equation you need to look at actually achieving a balance....

    too early for some
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

    (\__/)
    ( o.O)
    (")_(")
  • fuckfuck Posts: 4,069
    FiveB247x wrote:
    In this time frame, both sides really need to stop the problems and actions which cause the other half to react with violence. Whether it's Israeli army attacks or Palestinian terror groups - the end of such things would break the cycle of violence. It doesn't matter which side makes the first move to peace (process), but once they do, the other half will follow in kind.
    Noooo, it won't. why do you not get that already? israel is not interested in ACTUAL PEACE, that is why they have been maintaining an occupation over Palestinian land for the past 40 years. Not to mention the fact that any "peace process" before, such as:
    It's what occured during the Oslo Accords (closest we've seen to a real, longterm peace agreement) and it can happen again.
    was nothing but bullshit. did you not see what the Israelis offered the Palestinians during the Oslo Accords? do you not understand that the first suicide bombing happened THIRTY (30) YEARS after the occupation?

    The Israelis have to act first. A peace process CANNOT begin (it actually can't, physically and psychologically) until they withdraw from the occupied territories, until they stop oppressing the Palestinians...
  • MilestoneMilestone Posts: 1,140
    _outlaw wrote:
    "Seriously ill Palestinian patients are being pressured to collaborate with Israeli intelligence by informing on militant and other activities in return for being allowed out of Gaza for medical treatment a report says today."

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/tell-us-who-the-terrorists-are-if-you-want-the-doctor-884245.html


    Didn't you hear? Israel has the right to treat prisoners however they want because of the holocaust.
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  • FiveB247xFiveB247x Posts: 2,330
    Dude seriously, how many times would you like to repeat the same opinion? It's beating a dead horse. We've had this discussion numerous times already. I understand your opinion, the situation, but whole-heartedly disagree with your assessment. You posting your opinion doesn't make you any more right, nor does it make me anymore wrong.
    _outlaw wrote:
    Noooo, it won't. why do you not get that already? israel is not interested in ACTUAL PEACE, that is why they have been maintaining an occupation over Palestinian land for the past 40 years. Not to mention the fact that any "peace process" before, such as:

    was nothing but bullshit. did you not see what the Israelis offered the Palestinians during the Oslo Accords? do you not understand that the first suicide bombing happened THIRTY (30) YEARS after the occupation?

    The Israelis have to act first. A peace process CANNOT begin (it actually can't, physically and psychologically) until they withdraw from the occupied territories, until they stop oppressing the Palestinians...
    CONservative governMENt

    Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 16,497
    Man, I have an overwhelming feeling of deja vu...I can't help but feel like outlaw and Five have had this same argument before............
    hippiemom = goodness
  • RolandTD20KdrummerRolandTD20Kdrummer Posts: 13,066
    The lifestyles are so dramatically different.

    For those still wondering what levels people will go to "win", read Osama's letter to America, and go down the list.

    Then think about who's getting rich from what, the moralities (and $$$$$$$$$) of the people involved in said activities, and realize what lengths people will go to maintain this upper hand.

    Everything else falls right into place after that. Including what 9/11 was.
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

    (\__/)
    ( o.O)
    (")_(")
  • FiveB247xFiveB247x Posts: 2,330
    Pete and Re-Pete were in a boat, Pete fell out, who's left in the boat? Re-Pete

    Pete and Re-Pete were in a boat, Pete fell out, who's left in the boat? Re-Pete

    Pete and Re-Pete were in a boat, Pete fell out, who's left in the boat? Re-Pete
    cincybearcat wrote:
    Man, I have an overwhelming feeling of deja vu...I can't help but feel like outlaw and Five have had this same argument before............
    CONservative governMENt

    Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
  • puremagicpuremagic Posts: 1,907
    3inputchick wrote:
    Youare all thinking about this issue with an american/UK mentality-

    Israel has the right to defend herself.

    Israel is a rogue nuclear nation that continuously terrorizes its neighbors and we fund them in this cause. There's no justification for this type of action. Israel doesn't want peace, they thrive on the constant conflict that allows them to rob land and brutalize people. Maybe Israel should change its slogan from Never Again to Who's the Bitch Now. Too bad they don't share a border with Germany or Russia, at least it would be a fair fight in defending themselves.
    SIN EATERS--We take the moral excrement we find in this equation and we bury it down deep inside of us so that the rest of our case can stay pure. That is the job. We are morally indefensible and absolutely necessary.
  • fuckfuck Posts: 4,069
    FiveB247x wrote:
    Dude seriously, how many times would you like to repeat the same opinion? It's beating a dead horse. We've had this discussion numerous times already. I understand your opinion, the situation, but whole-heartedly disagree with your assessment. You posting your opinion doesn't make you any more right, nor does it make me anymore wrong.
    more right than you?

    what the hell are you talking about?

    if your only response to people's questions on here is "this was already discussed..." then that's fine. I really don't care about changing your mind because yours is already made up. I'm posting this for the other people reading.
  • FiveB247xFiveB247x Posts: 2,330
    My point is you keeping saying things like "you just don't get it". Perhaps you aren't aware that many people on this board or in the world disagree with you. And you posted the same questions and answers over and over doesn't make you any more right that someone you disagree with. There's no reason to repeat the same stuff over and over and over... there's already a thread where posted back and forth this exact exchange (which is what cincybearcat alluded too)... so why bother repeating one another again?

    There's a search function in this board so you can find old threads and posts... perhaps just "bump" the previous one compared to writing the same exact info or making the same exact statements. We're all familiar with your opinion and many are with mine, so why keeping repeating?
    _outlaw wrote:
    more right than you?

    what the hell are you talking about?

    if your only response to people's questions on here is "this was already discussed..." then that's fine. I really don't care about changing your mind because yours is already made up. I'm posting this for the other people reading.
    CONservative governMENt

    Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
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