Exactly!! It seems some just can't fathom the Arab people might get fed up and want to defend themselves somehow. I guess they are supposed to just roll over and play dead when their Israeli masters decide they feel like playing rough.
Say, did you (and commy) really read all the posts on this thread? Cause it seems to me the answer is no, and that's a shame.
We returned almost all Lebanese prisoners in 2003, after Hizbullah had kidnapped 3 Israeli soliders inside Israeli territory and one civilian in a foreign country. The ones who were left are 3 prisoners: Samir Kuntar ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samir_Kuntar ), a prisoner who was sent into life time in prison for killing the Haran family members (including a 4 years old girl) inside Isreal. Nisim Naser, who was accused in spying for the sake of Hizbullah, and there's another one which I can't remember his name at the moment, but I know he was accused in storage of illegal weapons. This is it - 3 Lenabese prisoners who got a fair trail and sent into prison.
About the case in Gaza: no one knows whether this story is true or false (=only one website in Turkey reported that case, family neighbors said to the reporter they know the father is in fact a Hamas-loyal, Hamas itself never mentioned this case so this is just a blurry story, don't relate it as a fact), but even if it is true (=the detainees were actually innocent civilians): That case happened only 2 days before Gilad Shalit was kidnapped in Gaza via a LONG tunnle dug all the way from Rafich to Kerem Shalom in Israel ==> one got to assume it takes MORE than just 2 days to dig a long tunnle without anyone to notice you ==> the whole thing was LONG planed in advance, and has nothing to do with that blurry story.
In general: Hizbullah has no right to kidnap anyone for the sake of no one - Not the Palestinians, nor the Iraqi people, or maybe do you think its ok for the Hizbullah to kidnap a few UK/US soliders inside their countries?
So my question is this. It seems that in many of the cases you mentioned there is some sort of internal change in thinking within the terrorist group and their supporters. Either the group itself has changed its thinking and is pulling its more radical supporter along behind it (this I think is the rarer occurence), or the population that supports the terrorist (Mafia) group has changed its thinking and is forcing the group to change moderate as well. The thing is I see neither of these things happening in the Arab world. Hezbollah and Hamas are certainly not moderating. The belief that entering the political realm, by becoming members of their respective people's governments, would force these groups to moderate has proven entirely false. And the local populations are certainly supportive of these groups. Lebanon, perhaps, is a little different, in that there are large non-muslim populations there that are not supportive of Hezbollah. However, it seems the more radical and violent these groups are the more popular they become with the Arab street. Given that I don't see how the models that have and are working elsewhere can simply be imported to the Middle East. It would take, in my opinion, a massive about face in popular thinking in the Arab-Muslim world to have any chance of pushing these terrorist groups towards moderation.
Numerically and in terms of military sophistication and overseas funding the IRA and Hezbollah are similar. The IRA were eventually neutered because the British government, after some decades, finally worked out the correct model for dealing with terrorism. It looks easy now, only because it was successful. By contrast the Israelis, and the US in Iraq, seem hellbent on making the same mistakes that were made in Ireland initially, severalfold.
The Cedar revolution seemed to be the direction of popular support before the recent events. For the forseeable future there will be more interest in self preservation and little to none in reigning in Hezbollah. Hezbollah itself is more of a religous cult than the IRA, and it is probably impossible to negotiate with. A slightly different strategy is therefore probably optimal to deal with it. However, I would emphasize the "slightly". Much of what worked against the IRA and against ETA in spain did not involve direct negotiation and may be transferable to the Israeli-Hezbollah situation.
Numerically and in terms of military sophistication and overseas funding the IRA and Hezbollah are similar. The IRA were eventually neutered because the British government, after some decades, finally worked out the correct model for dealing with terrorism. It looks easy now, only because it was successful. By contrast the Israelis, and the US in Iraq, seem hellbent on making the same mistakes that were made in Ireland initially, severalfold.
The Cedar revolution seemed to be the direction of popular support before the recent events. For the forseeable future there will be more interest in self preservation and little to none in reigning in Hezbollah. Hezbollah itself is more of a religous cult than the IRA, and it is probably impossible to negotiate with. A slightly different strategy is therefore probably optimal to deal with it. However, I would emphasize the "slightly". Much of what worked against the IRA and against ETA in spain did not involve direct negotiation and may be transferable to the Israeli-Hezbollah situation.
i don't want to go off-topic, but about IRA you're wrong: the "end" of hostilities began with the Good Friday agreements (1998), that were, indeed, negotiations. Same for ETA: they stopped their activities due to the declarations of Zapatera to be willing to go into negotiations.
We returned almost all Lebanese prisoners in 2003, after Hizbullah had kidnapped 3 Israeli soliders inside Israeli territory and one civilian in a foreign country. The ones who were left are 3 prisoners: Samir Kuntar ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samir_Kuntar ), a prisoner who was sent into life time in prison for killing the Haran family members (including a 4 years old girl) inside Isreal. Nisim Naser, who was accused in spying for the sake of Hizbullah, and there's another one which I can't remember his name at the moment, but I know he was accused in storage of illegal weapons. This is it - 3 Lenabese prisoners who got a fair trail and sent into prison.
Several thousand incarcerated Lebanese according to Jimmy Carter:
"Hezbollah militants then killed three Israeli soldiers and captured two others, and insisted on Israel's withdrawal from disputed territory and an exchange for some of the several thousand incarcerated Lebanese."
In general: Hizbullah has no right to kidnap anyone for the sake of no one - Not the Palestinians, nor the Iraqi people, or maybe do you think its ok for the Hizbullah to kidnap a few UK/US soliders inside their countries?
I agree.
But all countries take prisoners of war. This event doesn't seem unusual in the context of the ongoing activity.
This is the UN report on the month preceding the abductions:
Chronology of June casualties (excluding incidents of internal Palestinian fighting)
26 June – Four Israelis in Sderot were lightly injured from three homemade rockets fired from the Gaza Strip.
25 June – Two IDF soldiers were killed and three others injured during an attack by Palestinian militants on an IDF base at Kerem Shalom crossing. Two Palestinian militants were also killed in the attack and an IDF soldier was taken captive by the militants.
21 June – Two Palestinians were killed (including a woman in her seventh month of pregnancy) and 11 were injured (including six children) when an IAF drone fired a missile targeting a vehicle north-east of Khan Younis. The missile missed the vehicle and hit a house.
20 June – Three Palestinian children aged four, five and 16 years were killed, and 12 others injured (seven of whom were children) in Sheikh Radwan district of Gaza city when the IAF fired a missile at a vehicle carrying a member of the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade. He escaped unharmed.
16 June – Two members of Islamic Jihad were targeted and killed while driving on Salah Ed-Din street north of Bureij camp.
15 June – Three Israelis were injured by homemade rockets fired by Palestinians towards Sderot.
15 June – Two members of Islamic Jihad were killed by the IDF while trying to plant an explosive device near the border fence east of Deir El Balah.
13 June – Eleven Palestinians, including a father, his two sons aged four and six years, were killed by two IAF missile strikes which were aimed at a vehicle driven by members of Islamic Jihad. Two of the targeted passengers were killed. 32 Palestinians were injured.
11 June – Three Israelis were wounded, one seriously, when a Palestinian rocket landed outside Sapir Academic College in Israel.
11 June – Two members of Hamas were killed and three others injured by an IAF air strike while preparing to launch a homemade rocket in northern Gaza.
11 June – Two Palestinian bystanders were injured in Gaza city when a vehicle carrying Hamas members was targeted by an IAF air strike. The Hamas members escaped unhurt.
9 June – Seven members of a Palestinian family, including five children, were killed by an explosive device on a northern Gaza beach. Thirty-three other Palestinians were also injured, including 11 children.
9 June – One Palestinian from a militant organisation was injured when his car was hit by the IAF.
9 June – Three Palestinians including two brothers and a cousin were targeted and killed in an IAF air strike near Kamal Adwan hospital in Jabalia. The IDF claims the three were Palestinian militants, however this is denied by the family.
9 June – Three Hamas members were injured north of Beit Lahia when the car in which they were traveling was targeted by the IAF.
8 June – Jamal Abu Samhadana, leader of the Popular Resistance Committees (PRC) and director of the Hamas-led Executive Support Forces was targeted and killed by the IAF along with three members of PRC in an IAF air strike on a training camp outside Rafah.
7 June – Two Palestinian smugglers were killed by an Israeli tank shell along with a member of the Palestinian National Security Forces (NSF) near the border fence east of Gaza city. Six Palestinians were injured.
5 June – Two members from the Popular Resistance Committees were targeted and killed by the IAF and another four Palestinians injured, including two bystanders, when their car was hit by two IAF missiles east of Jabalia.
6 June – An Israeli woman was injured when her house near Sderot was hit by a homemade rocket fired from the Gaza Strip.
3 June – A member of the PA security forces was injured by IDF gunfire near the border fence east of Al Shouka area in Rafah.
3 June – A member of the PA security forces was injured in a clash in northern Gaza with an IDF undercover unit.
3 June – A Palestinian man was injured when an IDF artillery shell landed near his home in the Bedouin village north of Beit Lahia.
3 June – Two Palestinian sisters aged 2 and 3 years were injured by an IDF artillery shell in eastern Jabalia.
1 June – Two Palestinian boys aged 12 and 15 years were injured by gunfire from an IDF naval vessel while swimming in the sea to the west of Beit Lahia.
Several thousand incarcerated Lebanese according to Jimmy Carter:
"Hezbollah militants then killed three Israeli soldiers and captured two others, and insisted on Israel's withdrawal from disputed territory and an exchange for some of the several thousand incarcerated Lebanese."
He is wrong, those are Palestinians prisoners, NOT lebanese. That's why Hizbullah has no right to attack anyone for the sake of them, nor for the sake of its 3 prisoners who sent to Israeli prison after a fair trail.
Hamas was elected by the Palestinians, and even they have no right to achieve that goal (=prisoners) via missiles towards Sderot or kidnapping soliders inside Israeli territory. Israel govt & Hamas should try to solve things out via diplomacy. The problem is both sides chose other ways: Israel got paniced and refused to support a regime who doesn't believe it has the right to exist. Hamas started doing the same old tricks - fire at Israeli civilians smuggle and buy LOTS of weapons instead of helping their voters. In the end, we came back to where we went out one year ago and never wanted to return. Same old spot again :(
i don't want to go off-topic, but about IRA you're wrong: the "end" of hostilities began with the Good Friday agreements (1998), that were, indeed, negotiations. Same for ETA: they stopped their activities due to the declarations of Zapatera to be willing to go into negotiations.
But it is doubtful that they would have been successful without the years spent working in partnership with the local communities, intelligence gained from infiltration of the group, political stabilization, and rise of the Irish economy out of unemployment. And the negotiations were performed with the aid of external support perceived as neutral.
They should be the "bigger man" and pull out totally, BUT...preface it by saying that if anymore fucking rockets hit us, whatever country they came out of will feel the rath of almighty God/Allah/Mohammed rain down upon thee in the fury of an all out obliteration of that country. If your country permits terrorists to hide among your civilians and you do nothing to stop their persistent attacks on a neighbor...than prepare thy self for the worst case scenario. I'm not talking nukes...but pretty much the total destruction of Beirut and all major cities with terrorist presence via a massive air campaign. That's pretty harsh I know...but I'm sick of these Islamic Fundamentalist terrorist assholes who believe killing anyone with "Western" views is their path to heaven and 77 hot virgins. In the words of Metallica...kill 'em all. After all...they started it.
*** deep breath ***
I do feel bad for the babies, toddlers, and the little girls though. I don't feel too bad for mothers or fathers who may truely support the terrorists or hide them on their own accord.
Nor do I feel too bad about the little boys who have already learned to hate the West and have perfected the art of rock throwing and flag burning. Pathetic.
Maybe an all out nuclear holocaust in the Middle East is the only way this will ever end...that and an end to all organized religions who may have fundamentalists that use hatred and violence to "further their cause."
Get the boat waxed Noah...we're going for a long cruise soon.
19 Pearl Jam shows and still searching for Deep! 1998 (2) - East Lansing & Auburn Hills; 2000 (2) - Tampa & Noblesville; 2003 (2) - Lexington & Noblesville; 2006 (1) - Cincinnati; 2007 (1) - Chicago (Lollapalooza); 2008 (Ed in Milwaukee); 2009 (1) - Chicago; 2010 (1) - Noblesville; 2013 (3) - San Diego & Los Angeles I & II; 2016 (Temple of the Dog in Los Angeles); 2017 (Ed at Ohana in Dana Point); 2021 (3) - Dana Point I, II & III; 2022 (3) - San Diego & Los Angeles I & II; 2025 - Southern U.S. Tour Please!
I don't feel too bad for mothers or fathers who may truely support the terrorists or hide them on their own accord.
Nor do I feel too bad about the little boys who have already learned to hate the West and have perfected the art of rock throwing and flag burning. Pathetic.
Gosh, I wonder how Lebanese civilians would ever grow to hate the West and throw their support to organizations like Hezbollah? What kind of rhetoric would inspire such hostility? Maybe this:
...whatever country they came out of will feel the rath of almighty God/Allah/Mohammed rain down upon thee in the fury of an all out obliteration of that country.
I'm not talking nukes...but pretty much the total destruction of Beirut and all major cities with terrorist presence via a massive air campaign. That's pretty harsh I know...but I'm sick of these Islamic Fundamentalist terrorist assholes who believe killing anyone with "Western" views is their path to heaven and 77 hot virgins. In the words of Metallica...kill 'em all. After all...they started it.
Maybe an all out nuclear holocaust in the Middle East is the only way this will ever end...that and an end to all organized religions who may have fundamentalists that use hatred and violence to "further their cause."
The other morning on NPR, a Lebanese man who was inside the targeted building at Qana was interviewed. He wasn't previously pro-Hezbollah, but he was pretty fucking pissed at Israel after they killed his 6 children and his wife. That bombing probably produced more new terrorists than it killed. Responding to the kidnapping of their soldiers with a massive campaign that is destroying Lebanon's infrastructure and killing hundreds of civilians is only continuing the cycle.
"Of course it hurts. You're getting fucked by an elephant."
The other morning on NPR, a Lebanese man who was inside the targeted building at Qana was interviewed. He wasn't previously pro-Hezbollah, but he was pretty fucking pissed at Israel after they killed his 6 children and his wife. That bombing probably produced more new terrorists than it killed. Responding to the kidnapping of their soldiers with a massive campaign that is destroying Lebanon's infrastructure and killing hundreds of civilians is only continuing the cycle.
I'm sure he was. I'd be too. But shouldn't he also be a bit pissed at his government for allowing Hezbollah to operate out of their country and hide among it's civilians? It is a damn shame, I admit...but the madness of these terrorist organizations has to be decimated from the inside out (by the military of the countries they primarily operate out of) so the nations feeling the brunt of the terrorism don't have to bomb cowards hiding among civilians.
19 Pearl Jam shows and still searching for Deep! 1998 (2) - East Lansing & Auburn Hills; 2000 (2) - Tampa & Noblesville; 2003 (2) - Lexington & Noblesville; 2006 (1) - Cincinnati; 2007 (1) - Chicago (Lollapalooza); 2008 (Ed in Milwaukee); 2009 (1) - Chicago; 2010 (1) - Noblesville; 2013 (3) - San Diego & Los Angeles I & II; 2016 (Temple of the Dog in Los Angeles); 2017 (Ed at Ohana in Dana Point); 2021 (3) - Dana Point I, II & III; 2022 (3) - San Diego & Los Angeles I & II; 2025 - Southern U.S. Tour Please!
He is wrong, those are Palestinians prisoners, NOT lebanese. That's why Hizbullah has no right to attack anyone for the sake of them, nor for the sake of its 3 prisoners who sent to Israeli prison after a fair trail.
Hamas was elected by the Palestinians, and even they have no right to achieve that goal (=prisoners) via missiles towards Sderot or kidnapping soliders inside Israeli territory. Israel govt & Hamas should try to solve things out via diplomacy. The problem is both sides chose other ways: Israel got paniced and refused to support a regime who doesn't believe it has the right to exist. Hamas started doing the same old tricks - fire at Israeli civilians smuggle and buy LOTS of weapons instead of helping their voters. In the end, we came back to where we went out one year ago and never wanted to return. Same old spot again :(
'most eloquently said' could you please define diplomacy? isn't that anootfher word for lies?
all insanity:
a derivitive of nature.
nature is god
god is love
love is light
Comments
Say, did you (and commy) really read all the posts on this thread? Cause it seems to me the answer is no, and that's a shame.
Numerically and in terms of military sophistication and overseas funding the IRA and Hezbollah are similar. The IRA were eventually neutered because the British government, after some decades, finally worked out the correct model for dealing with terrorism. It looks easy now, only because it was successful. By contrast the Israelis, and the US in Iraq, seem hellbent on making the same mistakes that were made in Ireland initially, severalfold.
The Cedar revolution seemed to be the direction of popular support before the recent events. For the forseeable future there will be more interest in self preservation and little to none in reigning in Hezbollah. Hezbollah itself is more of a religous cult than the IRA, and it is probably impossible to negotiate with. A slightly different strategy is therefore probably optimal to deal with it. However, I would emphasize the "slightly". Much of what worked against the IRA and against ETA in spain did not involve direct negotiation and may be transferable to the Israeli-Hezbollah situation.
www.amnesty.org.uk
This event is not even close to summing up the whole conflict.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Several thousand incarcerated Lebanese according to Jimmy Carter:
"Hezbollah militants then killed three Israeli soldiers and captured two others, and insisted on Israel's withdrawal from disputed territory and an exchange for some of the several thousand incarcerated Lebanese."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/31/AR2006073100923.html
I agree.
But all countries take prisoners of war. This event doesn't seem unusual in the context of the ongoing activity.
This is the UN report on the month preceding the abductions:
Chronology of June casualties (excluding incidents of internal Palestinian fighting)
26 June – Four Israelis in Sderot were lightly injured from three homemade rockets fired from the Gaza Strip.
25 June – Two IDF soldiers were killed and three others injured during an attack by Palestinian militants on an IDF base at Kerem Shalom crossing. Two Palestinian militants were also killed in the attack and an IDF soldier was taken captive by the militants.
21 June – Two Palestinians were killed (including a woman in her seventh month of pregnancy) and 11 were injured (including six children) when an IAF drone fired a missile targeting a vehicle north-east of Khan Younis. The missile missed the vehicle and hit a house.
20 June – Three Palestinian children aged four, five and 16 years were killed, and 12 others injured (seven of whom were children) in Sheikh Radwan district of Gaza city when the IAF fired a missile at a vehicle carrying a member of the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade. He escaped unharmed.
16 June – Two members of Islamic Jihad were targeted and killed while driving on Salah Ed-Din street north of Bureij camp.
15 June – Three Israelis were injured by homemade rockets fired by Palestinians towards Sderot.
15 June – Two members of Islamic Jihad were killed by the IDF while trying to plant an explosive device near the border fence east of Deir El Balah.
13 June – Eleven Palestinians, including a father, his two sons aged four and six years, were killed by two IAF missile strikes which were aimed at a vehicle driven by members of Islamic Jihad. Two of the targeted passengers were killed. 32 Palestinians were injured.
11 June – Three Israelis were wounded, one seriously, when a Palestinian rocket landed outside Sapir Academic College in Israel.
11 June – Two members of Hamas were killed and three others injured by an IAF air strike while preparing to launch a homemade rocket in northern Gaza.
11 June – Two Palestinian bystanders were injured in Gaza city when a vehicle carrying Hamas members was targeted by an IAF air strike. The Hamas members escaped unhurt.
9 June – Seven members of a Palestinian family, including five children, were killed by an explosive device on a northern Gaza beach. Thirty-three other Palestinians were also injured, including 11 children.
9 June – One Palestinian from a militant organisation was injured when his car was hit by the IAF.
9 June – Three Palestinians including two brothers and a cousin were targeted and killed in an IAF air strike near Kamal Adwan hospital in Jabalia. The IDF claims the three were Palestinian militants, however this is denied by the family.
9 June – Three Hamas members were injured north of Beit Lahia when the car in which they were traveling was targeted by the IAF.
8 June – Jamal Abu Samhadana, leader of the Popular Resistance Committees (PRC) and director of the Hamas-led Executive Support Forces was targeted and killed by the IAF along with three members of PRC in an IAF air strike on a training camp outside Rafah.
7 June – Two Palestinian smugglers were killed by an Israeli tank shell along with a member of the Palestinian National Security Forces (NSF) near the border fence east of Gaza city. Six Palestinians were injured.
5 June – Two members from the Popular Resistance Committees were targeted and killed by the IAF and another four Palestinians injured, including two bystanders, when their car was hit by two IAF missiles east of Jabalia.
6 June – An Israeli woman was injured when her house near Sderot was hit by a homemade rocket fired from the Gaza Strip.
3 June – A member of the PA security forces was injured by IDF gunfire near the border fence east of Al Shouka area in Rafah.
3 June – A member of the PA security forces was injured in a clash in northern Gaza with an IDF undercover unit.
3 June – A Palestinian man was injured when an IDF artillery shell landed near his home in the Bedouin village north of Beit Lahia.
3 June – Two Palestinian sisters aged 2 and 3 years were injured by an IDF artillery shell in eastern Jabalia.
1 June – Two Palestinian boys aged 12 and 15 years were injured by gunfire from an IDF naval vessel while swimming in the sea to the west of Beit Lahia.
http://domino.un.org/unispal.nsf/22f431edb91c6f548525678a0051be1d/352dc3bdd1abdfa28525719b00496c0e!OpenDocument
He is wrong, those are Palestinians prisoners, NOT lebanese. That's why Hizbullah has no right to attack anyone for the sake of them, nor for the sake of its 3 prisoners who sent to Israeli prison after a fair trail.
Hamas was elected by the Palestinians, and even they have no right to achieve that goal (=prisoners) via missiles towards Sderot or kidnapping soliders inside Israeli territory. Israel govt & Hamas should try to solve things out via diplomacy. The problem is both sides chose other ways: Israel got paniced and refused to support a regime who doesn't believe it has the right to exist. Hamas started doing the same old tricks - fire at Israeli civilians smuggle and buy LOTS of weapons instead of helping their voters. In the end, we came back to where we went out one year ago and never wanted to return. Same old spot again :(
But it is doubtful that they would have been successful without the years spent working in partnership with the local communities, intelligence gained from infiltration of the group, political stabilization, and rise of the Irish economy out of unemployment. And the negotiations were performed with the aid of external support perceived as neutral.
*** deep breath ***
I do feel bad for the babies, toddlers, and the little girls though. I don't feel too bad for mothers or fathers who may truely support the terrorists or hide them on their own accord.
Nor do I feel too bad about the little boys who have already learned to hate the West and have perfected the art of rock throwing and flag burning. Pathetic.
Maybe an all out nuclear holocaust in the Middle East is the only way this will ever end...that and an end to all organized religions who may have fundamentalists that use hatred and violence to "further their cause."
Get the boat waxed Noah...we're going for a long cruise soon.
1998 (2) - East Lansing & Auburn Hills; 2000 (2) - Tampa & Noblesville; 2003 (2) - Lexington & Noblesville; 2006 (1) - Cincinnati; 2007 (1) - Chicago (Lollapalooza); 2008 (Ed in Milwaukee); 2009 (1) - Chicago; 2010 (1) - Noblesville; 2013 (3) - San Diego & Los Angeles I & II; 2016 (Temple of the Dog in Los Angeles); 2017 (Ed at Ohana in Dana Point);
2021 (3) - Dana Point I, II & III; 2022 (3) - San Diego & Los Angeles I & II; 2025 - Southern U.S. Tour Please!
Gosh, I wonder how Lebanese civilians would ever grow to hate the West and throw their support to organizations like Hezbollah? What kind of rhetoric would inspire such hostility? Maybe this:
...and the capper:
The other morning on NPR, a Lebanese man who was inside the targeted building at Qana was interviewed. He wasn't previously pro-Hezbollah, but he was pretty fucking pissed at Israel after they killed his 6 children and his wife. That bombing probably produced more new terrorists than it killed. Responding to the kidnapping of their soldiers with a massive campaign that is destroying Lebanon's infrastructure and killing hundreds of civilians is only continuing the cycle.
I'm sure he was. I'd be too. But shouldn't he also be a bit pissed at his government for allowing Hezbollah to operate out of their country and hide among it's civilians? It is a damn shame, I admit...but the madness of these terrorist organizations has to be decimated from the inside out (by the military of the countries they primarily operate out of) so the nations feeling the brunt of the terrorism don't have to bomb cowards hiding among civilians.
1998 (2) - East Lansing & Auburn Hills; 2000 (2) - Tampa & Noblesville; 2003 (2) - Lexington & Noblesville; 2006 (1) - Cincinnati; 2007 (1) - Chicago (Lollapalooza); 2008 (Ed in Milwaukee); 2009 (1) - Chicago; 2010 (1) - Noblesville; 2013 (3) - San Diego & Los Angeles I & II; 2016 (Temple of the Dog in Los Angeles); 2017 (Ed at Ohana in Dana Point);
2021 (3) - Dana Point I, II & III; 2022 (3) - San Diego & Los Angeles I & II; 2025 - Southern U.S. Tour Please!
a derivitive of nature.
nature is god
god is love
love is light
a derivitive of nature.
nature is god
god is love
love is light
Maybe, but I prefer diplomacy than having an actual war out of the blue.