Why what some of you say leads to Iran

dayan

enharmonic, let me ask you a question. if you gave me the name of your grandfather, or greatgrandfather and i went and did some research and found out he was a criminal, do you really believe it would then somehow be karmicly just for me to come to your house and murder you, cause that seems to be the position you're taking. And I don't excuse the evil commited by anyone, Jew or non-Jew. If someone has done wrong they should be punished, in a court of law, where the punishment is commensurate with the crime. If this concept is beyond you then I am truly afraid to be living in the same society as you.

mammasan

dayan wrote:

then you haven't read the article. I agree, no one is surprised that Iran would do this. what is being pointed out in the article is that public debate on Israel is no longer civil. there is so much hate directed at Israel that racists are able to pick up on that language and pretend that they don't really hate Jews, they just hate all the evil Israel is doing in the world. For God's sake can't anyone see how even some of the comments made on this thread lower the bar on civil debate and make it so easy for "criticism" to slip into racism.

I did read the article and regardless of the amount of the amount of critisism that exists toward Israel these people would still be acting and saying the same. Their actions are not based on what the rest of the world says about Israels actions. Their actions are based on their own racist beliefs. Just because they may use some valid points put forth by reasoned people doesn't discredit that point or the individuals who may have made it. And again I haven't seen any racism towards Jews on this thread. I have seen a lot of disgust with Israels actions, I have seen a lot of disgust with the US' unconditional support of Israel and it's actions, but not once have I seen anyone make any anti-semetic remarks.

dayan

mammasan wrote:

Well criticism of Israel has become accepted because much of what people are saying has some validity to it, I'm not talking about the Holocaust deniers. Unlike a country like Iran, which also deserves the critisism it receives, Isreal will never be subject to any punishment for their actions because the US will never allow it. Just look at this comparison. Israel creates a nuclear weapons program, in secret, and refuses to sign the NPT and nothing is ever done about it because the US vetos any resolution but forth against Israel. Iran is accused of creating a nuclear weapons program and everything from invasion to sanctions is discussed.

yeah but the difference is that in the decades Israel has had its nukes they have never used them either to attack or bully or blackmail their neighbors. Israel doesn't talk about destroying the states surrounding it, and it doesn't fund terrorist all over the world. Iran on the other hand funds terrorist just about everywhere, and talks constantly about wiping Israel off the map. Add to that Iran's internal upheaval due to a poor economy and you can imagine how stirring up conflict could be to the regimes benefit. It's all about context. no one says anything about Israel having nukes because Israel has proven itself to be a responsible nuclear state. Iran, at least at this juncture, seems like a nightmare scenario with nukes.

dayan

mammasan wrote:

I did read the article and regardless of the amount of the amount of critisism that exists toward Israel these people would still be acting and saying the same. Their actions are not based on what the rest of the world says about Israels actions. Their actions are based on their own racist beliefs. Just because they may use some valid points put forth by reasoned people doesn't discredit that point or the individuals who may have made it. And again I haven't seen any racism towards Jews on this thread. I have seen a lot of disgust with Israels actions, I have seen a lot of disgust with the US' unconditional support of Israel and it's actions, but not once have I seen anyone make any anti-semetic remarks.

I wasn't saying that people on this thread have made any anti-semitic remarks (although the comments about all the evil the Jews have caused in the world might just do it). I was saying that the hateful criticism exhibited on this thread are an example of the sort of environment in which anti-semitism could easily be nurtured. I'm saying that you should all feel free to critisize Israel but that you should be aware that when you talk about Israel being the worst state on earth, and go on and on about the evil they commit, and say things about Israel controlling the US, and how you can't critisize Israel anymore (which is clearly not true as anyone on the train should be able to see) and comparisons are made between Israel and the Nazis, you create a tone, and environment, which is conducive to the creation and the nurturing of actual anti-semitism. All I'm saying is what you write can have consequences, and people should be aware of that and act responsibly.

mammasan

dayan wrote:

yeah but the difference is that in the decades Israel has had its nukes they have never used them either to attack or bully or blackmail their neighbors. Israel doesn't talk about destroying the states surrounding it, and it doesn't fund terrorist all over the world. Iran on the other hand funds terrorist just about everywhere, and talks constantly about wiping Israel off the map. Add to that Iran's internal upheaval due to a poor economy and you can imagine how stirring up conflict could be to the regimes benefit. It's all about context. no one says anything about Israel having nukes because Israel has proven itself to be a responsible nuclear state. Iran, at least at this juncture, seems like a nightmare scenario with nukes.

While I do agree with you on the possibility of Iran possessing nukes. My point is that Israel, the state not the people, has special treatment because of it's association to the US. If any other country had acted as Israel did during their invasion of Lebanon you can be sure the US would not have been so supportive. You can be sure that resolutions would have been passed in the UN unoppessed by the US. Iran does not even have nuclear weapons. There is no proof thatIran is even developing a nuclear weapons program but yet the powers that be already want sanctions and have already resorted to saber rattling and I'm sure hadour militray not been so bogged down in Iraq, miliatry operations would have been underway already. Their has always been a double standard andnot just with Israel but with many of the powerfull nations of this world.As long as that double standard exists andwecontinue to operate under it people like David Duke and Amedinhjad will continue to mix their racist beliefs with legitamate arguements.

I also agree that it is dispicable to veil your racism by leaching on to legitamate arguements against Israel.

redrock

yosi wrote:

I never imagined how many people on this site were Nazi apologists.

dayan

I disagree with you on the reaction to the war in Lebanon. I don't think that Israel acted out of bounds, though I understand how someone who only sees what's going on on the western news might think that. Having been in Israel during the war my perception is that Israel did a fine job of pin-pointing their strikes and minimizing civilian casualties, especially given the scope of their operations and the manner in which hezballah used civilians as human shields. I'm sure you aren't going to agree with me, and I know that I won't agree with you, so on this we can agree to disagree. As far as Israel having carte blanche to do what it likes, I again don't think that is true. Right now for instance many Israeli leaders are interested in exploring peace deals with Syria but cannot because of US objections. furthermore, in every major war Israel has fought with its arab neighbors Israel could have had even more decisive victories and had even greater gains if it wasn't for the US restraining it from doing what would have been in Israel's, but not America's, interest.

mammasan

dayan wrote:

I disagree with you on the reaction to the war in Lebanon. I don't think that Israel acted out of bounds, though I understand how someone who only sees what's going on on the western news might think that. Having been in Israel during the war my perception is that Israel did a fine job of pin-pointing their strikes and minimizing civilian casualties, especially given the scope of their operations and the manner in which hezballah used civilians as human shields. I'm sure you aren't going to agree with me, and I know that I won't agree with you, so on this we can agree to disagree. As far as Israel having carte blanche to do what it likes, I again don't think that is true. Right now for instance many Israeli leaders are interested in exploring peace deals with Syria but cannot because of US objections. furthermore, in every major war Israel has fought with its arab neighbors Israel could have had even more decisive victories and had even greater gains if it wasn't for the US restraining it from doing what would have been in Israel's, but not America's, interest.

I remember you posting that you where there at the time. I found Israel's actions to be heavy handed but like you said we will probabaly disagree so there is no use for this back andforth. I also find it a horrible shame that my own country would object to any type of peace accord between Israel and Syria.

yosi1

mammasan wrote:

Who hear is a Nazi apologist?

Anyone here, such as enharmonic, who tries to justify or rationalize the Holocaust.

enharmonic wrote:

did the Jews ever really attone for their involvement in the slave trade?

enharmonic wrote:

. Yes, the Jews were slaughtered by the thousands during WWII, but the things they participated in long before WWII...where's the accountability? That's all I'm asking. I believe that accountability bears out for any group of oppressed or oppressors.

Are you suggesting that oppressors should go unpunished thoughout history? That would be truly "sick" and "disgusting" as you put it

I think that says it all.

mammasan

yosi wrote:

Anyone here, such as enharmonic, who tries to justify or rationalize the Holocaust.





I think that says it all.

While I don't agree with his sentiment it is far from being apologetic for the nazis. This is exactly what I was refering to. Some one is critical of the Jews and while his/her critism may be a bit harsh they are instantly compared to Nazis or Nazi sympathizers.

yosi1

mammasan wrote:

While I don't agree with his sentiment it is far from being apologetic for the nazis. This is exactly what I was refering to. Some one is critical of the Jews and while his/her critism may be a bit harsh they are instantly compared to Nazis or Nazi sympathizers.

That is not what I am saying. I am not saying that when someone criticizes Israel or the Jews, they are a Nazi, or Nazi sympathizer. I am saying though, if one gives a rationale, or tries to justify the Holocaust, that is sympathizing with the Nazis.

mammasan

yosi wrote:

That is not what I am saying. I am not saying that when someone criticizes Israel or the Jews, they are a Nazi, or Nazi sympathizer. I am saying though, if one gives a rationale, or tries to justify the Holocaust, that is sympathizing with the Nazis.

I don't think he was trying to justify the holocaust. All he said was that so much focus is put on the sauffering of the Jews but no one seems to look at their participation in actions and/or events that caused close to or equal harm to others.

yosi1

mammasan wrote:

I don't think he was trying to justify the holocaust. All he said was that so much focus is put on the sauffering of the Jews but no one seems to look at their participation in actions and/or events that caused close to or equal harm to others.

I don't believe that's what he said, but I guess we understand him differently. Even so, there are still better ways, and analogies to be made.

enharmonic

Paint it however you like, Yosi. Whatever makes you feel like you're accomplishing some great good for the whole of Israel. If you need to label me a Nazi apologist (which clearly I'm not), knock yourself out. It would be just as easy for me to label you a whiny revisionist...but I won't stoop to your predictable level.

Wait...let me try to tow your line for a moment...ahem...

"Israel and all of the Jews of the world are as docile and benevolent as cattle. We as a people have never done anything wrong, or treated any others inhumanly. Anyone who calls us on our shit is obviously a nazi apologist or anti-semite"

Nope, can't do it. Sorry. I tried.

enharmonic

dayan wrote:

enharmonic, let me ask you a question. if you gave me the name of your grandfather, or greatgrandfather and i went and did some research and found out he was a criminal, do you really believe it would then somehow be karmicly just for me to come to your house and murder you, cause that seems to be the position you're taking. And I don't excuse the evil commited by anyone, Jew or non-Jew. If someone has done wrong they should be punished, in a court of law, where the punishment is commensurate with the crime. If this concept is beyond you then I am truly afraid to be living in the same society as you.

The concept is not beyond me, as I worked in criminal justice for years. It is simply not applicable to my discussion.

IF my ancestors were murderers or slave traders, and no one in my ancestry had attoned for that, then certainly I would expect that my lot inlife would be impacted. for all that I know, it could be the reason why any number of horrible things have happened to me in my life already. I have no problem with it, if it is my fate. But clearly you do not understand the concept of karma, for if you killed me, you would assume the same fate as my hypothetical ancestors.

boxwine_in_hell

yosi wrote:

I can't believe some of the replies in this thread. They are absolutely disgusting. I hope this thread gets locked. I never imagined how many people on this site were Nazi apologists.

Scary isn't it?....I wonder what the dumbass leader of Iran thinks happened to the tens of thousands of Muslims that disappeared in the former Yugoslavia. Does he think they went on a vacation? Denial of the Halocaust is straight up ignorance. If those movies of death camps being liberated are a hoax then the allies are really fucking good at special effects. Pretty hard to use makeup to make an actor 65 pounds and completely starving.

enharmonic

yosi wrote:

I don't believe that's what he said, but I guess we understand him differently. Even so, there are still better ways, and analogies to be made.

I disagree. And mammasan has got it exactly right. Do I care that millions of people were murdered for no other reason than that they were Jews in WWII? Of course I do. It is horrible (as I have said many times now) and unacceptable. But, it is no more horrible than when the Jews dehumanized others and sold them as property.

Were the Jews not treated as property in WWII...getting numbered tattoos in the concentration camps...like you or I might etch a number on a bicycle we own to help identify it later if it were stolen? Seems to me that the cycle of treating people as property and in an inhumane way was visited upon the Jews AS A PEOPLE. One cannot rule out the karmic implications.

I fully expect that America will continue to suffer untold consequences for its actions in the world for the last few hundred years too. Doesn't make it right, but at the same time I won't be the person sitting here defending my country as if it were some doe-eyed innocent bystander in the grand scheme of things.

dayan

enharmonic wrote:

Paint it however you like, Yosi. Whatever makes you feel like you're accomplishing some great good for the whole of Israel. If you need to label me a Nazi apologist (which clearly I'm not), knock yourself out. It would be just as easy for me to label you a whiny revisionist...but I won't stoop to your predictable level.

Wait...let me try to tow your line for a moment...ahem...

"Israel and all of the Jews of the world are as docile and benevolent as cattle. We as a people have never done anything wrong, or treated any others inhumanly. Anyone who calls us on our shit is obviously a nazi apologist or anti-semite"

Nope, can't do it. Sorry. I tried.

Man, you are so full of it. No one here is saying that Jews do no wrong or that Israel does no wrong, or that anyone critical of Israel is an anti-semite or a Nazi apologist. What Yosi was saying is that you are a Nazi apologist for suggesting that somehow the victims of the holocaust were reaping their cosmic just deserts for the crimes of their ancestors, which by the way you keep asserting without ever having shown any evidence. Again, Jews and Israel can do wrong, and people are allowed to critisize Israel. You just happen to have apologized for the holocaust, even if somehow you are unaware of it, and you were called on it, so don't try to portray yourself as the poor victim of the big bad Jewish conspiracy to quash all critisism with the label of anti-semitism.

dayan

And can you please tell me exactly when the Jewish people as a whole participated in the slave trade?

enharmonic

dayan wrote:

Man, you are so full of it. No one here is saying that Jews do no wrong or that Israel does no wrong, or that anyone critical of Israel is an anti-semite or a Nazi apologist. What Yosi was saying is that you are a Nazi apologist for suggesting that somehow the victims of the holocaust were reaping their cosmic just deserts for the crimes of their ancestors, which by the way you keep asserting without ever having shown any evidence. Again, Jews and Israel can do wrong, and people are allowed to critisize Israel. You just happen to have apologized for the holocaust, even if somehow you are unaware of it, and you were called on it, so don't try to portray yourself as the poor victim of the big bad Jewish conspiracy to quash all critisism with the label of anti-semitism.

Oh Christ...now you want me to show you evidence of Jews participating in the slave trade?

Take a history class...or if you're a Jew, shame on you for a cheap attempt at evasion.