The one question missing from the debates

RolandTD20KdrummerRolandTD20Kdrummer Posts: 13,066
edited October 2008 in A Moving Train
Well it looks like the conflict isn't going to end anytime soon. Draw down in Iraq but increase in Afghanistan and Pakistan and perhaps wherever else the insurgents are hiding.

Anyone ever think to ask why the terrorists hate the US and want to cause harm to the people living there?

What is the answer to that question?

Shouldn't this be the road to real change instead of just talking around it and coming up with ongoing plans to seek out additional conflict wherever it may be found?

Am I missing something here?
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.

http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

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  • CommyCommy Posts: 4,984
    Well it looks like the conflict isn't going to end anytime soon. Draw down in Iraq but increase in Afghanistan and Pakistan and perhaps wherever else the insurgents are hiding.

    Anyone ever think to ask why the terrorists hate the US and want to cause harm to the people living there?

    What is the answer to that question?

    Shouldn't this be the road to real change instead of just talking around it and coming up with ongoing plans to seek out additional conflict wherever it may be found?

    Am I missing something here?
    good point. The only answer anyone gave to idea of the threat of terrorism was to increase the violence against them. Forget that that is what may have caused the terrorist attacks in the first place. send more guns, send more tanks more planes. fight fire with fire.
  • Commy wrote:
    good point. The only answer anyone gave to idea of the threat of terrorism was to increase the violence against them. Forget that that is what may have caused the terrorist attacks in the first place. send more guns, send more tanks more planes. fight fire with fire.


    I mean fuck....progress...progressive?

    regressive?

    I think I know the answer already, but I'm really surprised nobody else is thinking this exact same thing.

    eight long years of molding public perception
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

    (\__/)
    ( o.O)
    (")_(")
  • CommyCommy Posts: 4,984
    I mean fuck....progress...progressive?

    regressive?

    I think I know the answer already, but I'm really surprised nobody else is thinking this exact same thing.

    eight long years of molding public perception
    yeah we're missing a few w's. they are anyway. This mess will be sorted out eventually. Either in the streets or at the polls, one way or the other its going down.
  • Well it looks like the conflict isn't going to end anytime soon. Draw down in Iraq but increase in Afghanistan and Pakistan and perhaps wherever else the insurgents are hiding.

    Anyone ever think to ask why the terrorists hate the US and want to cause harm to the people living there?

    What is the answer to that question?

    Shouldn't this be the road to real change instead of just talking around it and coming up with ongoing plans to seek out additional conflict wherever it may be found?

    Am I missing something here?

    Because the truth is covered in Israeli politics and the US's blind support of them and it will be a cold day in hell before that's ever acknowledged.
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  • Well it looks like the conflict isn't going to end anytime soon. Draw down in Iraq but increase in Afghanistan and Pakistan and perhaps wherever else the insurgents are hiding.

    Anyone ever think to ask why the terrorists hate the US and want to cause harm to the people living there?

    What is the answer to that question?

    Shouldn't this be the road to real change instead of just talking around it and coming up with ongoing plans to seek out additional conflict wherever it may be found?

    Am I missing something here?

    Because they hate our freedom is what I gathered from Palin. I know the question was not asked in the same format upir wrote but I think she did mention something along that line.

    I wish I could say you were missing something here but you are not. I remember after 9/11. Trey from Phish said something about that being the real issue, as to why someone would want to do this to us, that our foreign policy needs to change. And I remember him getting bashed about it. Let alone any one else who felt the same way. I felt that way then and I feel that way now.
    Let's Go Red Sox!
  • CommyCommy Posts: 4,984
    Because the truth is covered in Israeli politics and the US's blind support of them and it will be a cold day in hell before that's ever acknowledged.
    not to jump on the jews control the world bandwagon, bu tthere is some truth to that. ISrael is off the charts when it comes to US 'defense' spending. WE don't sell planes and arms to ISrael, we give it to them. We don't tell them how to make nukes, we give it to them. We not only support them militarily, we support them diplomatically. Look at UN resolutions in the past 40 years or so, its either the US or ISrael, or the US and Israel abstaining from the vote, which for all intents and purposes kills the initiative. The US is a member of the security council. We say no, no action takes place. And there are hundreds of cases where its been the world agaisnt the US and ISrael, and no action takes place, due to the US position on the security council. We say no, the bill ends.
  • MattyJoeMattyJoe Posts: 1,424
    momofglynn wrote:
    I wish I could say you were missing something here but you are not. I remember after 9/11. Trey from Phish said something about that being the real issue, as to why someone would want to do this to us, that our foreign policy needs to change. And I remember him getting bashed about it. Let alone any one else who felt the same way. I felt that way then and I feel that way now.

    All hail Trey from Phish.
    I pledge to you a government that will not only work well, but wisely, its ability to act tempered by prudence, and its willingness to do good, balanced by the knowledge that government is never more dangerous than when our desire to have it help us blinds us to its great power to harm us.
    -Reagan
  • Drowned OutDrowned Out Posts: 6,056
    It really is the crux of the whole thing, and should have been since 9/11... if only as an eye opener to inciteful foreign policy.

    The only answer they've attempted to push was "they hate us for our freedoms", a term as vague as the 'war on terror' itself. It really amazed me to hear people repeat that shit in day-to-day convos...

    I think I'd change the "U.S." above, to "us", esp if the Afghan occupation is bolstered after the election...it sucks that Canada is playing a prominent role in the 'popular' war. 2011 is not soon enough for us to get out. We are only there to appease the US....'but they're our biggest trading partner'....ya, keep sellin your soul. fuck. We're doing way more harm than good, and endangering ourselves by towing the NATO line.

    SES Research, May 2007
    6. Do you think Canada's mission in Afghanistan is making Canada more or less vulnerable to a terrorist attack?
    More Vulnerable -- 67.0%
    Less Vulnerable -- 17.9%
    Unsure -- 15.1%

    We know it, our representatives know it, but no one does anything about it...because of greed. Dont' piss off the Americans, we trade stuff with them.

    It's not only inhumane, it's bad business. Canada is like some big manufacturer, suckin walmart's teet and expanding production, while fucking over all of our smaller accounts (other countries) and employees (us)...someday someone will go postal and we'll be wondering why anyone would be so disgruntled...yet we still won't acknowledge that we're fucked if Wal-Mart ever goes under...:(
  • My opinion is that terrorism doesn't matter. It will never go away. The only thing you can do is say keep killing us we will still be here with our freedom, female equality and support of Israel.

    Fighting a "War on Terror" is a never ending vacuum on the wallet of America.

    Only 5000 or so people died in 9/11. It was not nearly as big a deal as our government has made it out to be.

    Do you really think you are going to die in a terrorist attack?
  • About 0.002% of the US population died on 9/11.
  • Because the truth is covered in Israeli politics and the US's blind support of them and it will be a cold day in hell before that's ever acknowledged.

    The US appears to be fighting a proxy war for Israel. Oil, religious values...freedom..womens rights... it's getting way to twilight zone-ish for me.

    Nobody seems to be talking solutions...just more conflict now but in other areas. I mean what the hell does withdraw from Iraq in 2013 mean anyways....ANYTHING can happen in that time...might as well be 2023...or forever for what it's worth.

    Disappointing.
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

    (\__/)
    ( o.O)
    (")_(")
  • Drowned OutDrowned Out Posts: 6,056
    keithjam wrote:
    My opinion is that terrorism doesn't matter. It will never go away.

    Do you really think people from the other side of the planet would come all the way over here to kill us if we weren't fucking with them? You might have some domestic issues, but why would international terrorism even exist if the business dealings were fair and equitable, and we left the tanks and planes at home?
  • CommyCommy Posts: 4,984
    keithjam wrote:
    About 0.002% of the US population died on 9/11.
    you seem to be a number cruncher.


    What's the percentage of Iraqi's who've died as a result of US policy when the death toll is over 1,000,000.

    Not to mention the loss of infrastructure, deliberatly targeted in the war.
  • g under pg under p Surfing The far side of THE Sombrero Galaxy Posts: 18,200
    Because the truth is covered in Israeli politics and the US's blind support of them and it will be a cold day in hell before that's ever acknowledged.

    ...and it continues our unabated love for Isarel.

    Admin Backs $15B Fighter Jet Sale to Israel

    The Bush administration has approved a new $15 billion sale of advanced military fighter jets to the Israeli government. Aided by US funding, Israel will buy twenty-five Joint Strike Fighter aircraft built by the military contractor Lockheed Martin.

    Peace
    *We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti

    *MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
    .....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti

    *The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)


  • CommyCommy Posts: 4,984
    g under p wrote:
    ...and it continues our unabated love for Isarel.

    Admin Backs $15B Fighter Jet Sale to Israel

    The Bush administration has approved a new $15 billion sale of advanced military fighter jets to the Israeli government. Aided by US funding, Israel will buy twenty-five Joint Strike Fighter aircraft built by the military contractor Lockheed Martin.

    Peace
    Isreal is basically a US base in the middle east.
  • CommyCommy Posts: 4,984
    Think the biggest question missing from the debates was whether or not the US has the moral ground to stand on when it comes to intervening in foreign countries.
  • g under pg under p Surfing The far side of THE Sombrero Galaxy Posts: 18,200
    Commy wrote:
    Think the biggest question missing from the debates was whether or not the US has the moral ground to stand on when it comes to intervening in foreign countries.

    That answer is NO and No again. i hope one of these candidates can restore our world standing when it come foreign affairs.

    Peace
    *We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti

    *MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
    .....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti

    *The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)


  • CommyCommy Posts: 4,984
    g under p wrote:
    That answer is NO and No again. i hope one of these candidates can restore our world standing when it come foreign affairs.

    Peace
    I hope.

    I think the US empire has 2 choices. It can continue and slowly be eaten up by those more powerful emerging countries, or make amends and create solid partnerships with countries we've helped in the past, and maybe maintain some semblance of control. Or it can slip into a subserviant role and see how it looks on the other end.


    Seems Mccain would choose the former, while Obama might try to make amends. Hard to say.
  • I like what David Cross has to say about the subject. I am paraphrasing, but he basically says if the terrorists hated us for our freedom, than the Netherlands would be fucking dust because they are truly more free than the U.S.
  • CommyCommy Posts: 4,984
    I like what David Cross has to say about the subject. I am paraphrasing, but he basically says if the terrorists hated us for our freedom, than the Netherlands would be fucking dust because they are truly more free than the U.S.
    or like having a war on terrorism is like having a war on jealousy. Its an idea. You can never win.
  • g under pg under p Surfing The far side of THE Sombrero Galaxy Posts: 18,200
    Commy wrote:
    I hope.

    I think the US empire has 2 choices. It can continue and slowly be eaten up by those more powerful emerging countries, or make amends and create solid partnerships with countries we've helped in the past, and maybe maintain some semblance of control. Or it can slip into a subserviant role and see how it looks on the other end.


    Seems Mccain would choose the former, while Obama might try to make amends. Hard to say.

    A militaristic Empire we've become for sure. Few Americans know around this world on every continent we have permanent American Military bases (over 700) some with laws that forbid American soldiers from prosecution in any crimes they may commit in those countries.

    Scary shit but Chalmers Johnson's book The Sorrows of Empire...Militarism, Secrecy, and the End of the Republic, really puts it in perspective anyone can understand.

    Peace
    *We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti

    *MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
    .....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti

    *The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)


  • CommyCommy Posts: 4,984
    g under p wrote:
    A militaristic Empire we've become for sure. Few Americans know around this world on every continent we have permanent American Military bases (over 700) some with laws that forbid American soldiers from prosecution in any crimes they may commit in those countries.

    Scary shit but Chalmers Johnson's book The Sorrows of Empire...Militarism, Secrecy, and the End of the Republic, really puts it in perspective anyone can understand.

    Peace
    thanks man.


    Maybe the days of empire are coming to an end. Collectivism on the rise.
  • MrBrianMrBrian Posts: 2,672
    boxers or briefs?

    Serioulsy, what a crap debate. I was expecting some action from the moose killer.
  • CommyCommy Posts: 4,984
    adfg
  • I like what David Cross has to say about the subject. I am paraphrasing, but he basically says if the terrorists hated us for our freedom, than the Netherlands would be fucking dust because they are truly more free than the U.S.


    That's a very good point.

    I'm beginning to think religion is the problem. The Jews have to live somewhere as much as anyone else, and let's face it Germany was no piece of cake before and after Hitler bit the dust from the Jewish perspective.

    The Muslims biggest contention is the founding and ongoing military support of Israel. As crazy as Ahmadinejad, Gaddafi etc... and the general consensus of Muslims toward Israel is, in the end, we all have to get along eventually. The alternative is a mushroom cloud of epic and escalating proportions.

    For this reason I honestly think mankind will eventually come to realize Religion is causing more harm than good, as it's at the core of both ideologies.

    I mean who really talks like they are gods chosen people really...that's totally whacked upside the noggin...and the Muslims use it to oust the invaders like it's holy commandment.

    Religion is sucking for the world in this case...badly.

    edit: I should say political religion...it's a nightmare..
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

    (\__/)
    ( o.O)
    (")_(")
  • g under pg under p Surfing The far side of THE Sombrero Galaxy Posts: 18,200
    Commy wrote:
    thanks man.


    Maybe the days of empire are coming to an end. Collectivism on the rise.

    Something hit me this morning on how this country has military bases around the world and no foreign country has or is allowed military bases in this country. So what does that tell you about this country, we've become a militaristic mindset here in WARsington. With war constantly on our minds it seems it now seems this country the US has become the scariest country on this planet.

    Peace
    *We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti

    *MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
    .....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti

    *The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)


  • NMyTreeNMyTree Posts: 2,374
    keithjam wrote:
    My opinion is that terrorism doesn't matter. It will never go away. The only thing you can do is say keep killing us we will still be here with our freedom, female equality and support of Israel


    That's not why they attacked us.

    Our freedom, female equality and "support of Israel " has nothing to do with why they attacked America.

    I can't believe there's anyone left on this whole planet who believes such nonsense.

    Our support of Israel isn't just support. They wouldn't really care about us just simply supporting Israel. Our government not only supports Israel, but is complicit in Israel's most intrusive invasions and violent attrocities. That's the problem they have with us "supporting " Israel.

    Our foreign policies, our presence and our actions in the middle east or policies that significantly effect the middle east; is the problem.

    Now, I'm no apologist for Muslim extremists (or any extremists of any religion) and I'm well aware of the extremist's perception of their religion, their place in their religion and how they believe they should interact and engage with non-muslims (infidels). I know these kooks believe it's their god-given right to spread (bully and force) their Islamic religion onto everyone and those who resist should be murdered.

    I know they believe it is their duty to infest every country, every corner of the world with their twisted and demented variation of Islam and attempt to change that host country/community into Islamic rule.

    You know, like Christians.

    But that's not the war we're fighting. Or is it?
  • Stone Is GodStone Is God Posts: 1,331
    g under p wrote:
    ...and it continues our unabated love for Isarel.

    Admin Backs $15B Fighter Jet Sale to Israel

    The Bush administration has approved a new $15 billion sale of advanced military fighter jets to the Israeli government. Aided by US funding, Israel will buy twenty-five Joint Strike Fighter aircraft built by the military contractor Lockheed Martin.

    Peace

    It will not stop, either, with what ever ticket gets into the White House.
    I'll ride the wave where it takes me.
  • g under pg under p Surfing The far side of THE Sombrero Galaxy Posts: 18,200
    It will not stop, either, with what ever ticket gets into the White House.

    Exactly that's the really scary part it matters none who wins the Presidential race they're both up Iarael's butt. In their eyes Isarel can do no wrong.

    Peace
    *We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti

    *MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
    .....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti

    *The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)


  • NMyTreeNMyTree Posts: 2,374
    g under p wrote:
    Something hit me this morning on how this country has military bases around the world and no foreign country has or is allowed military bases in this country. So what does that tell you about this country, we've become a militaristic mindset here in WARsington. With war constantly on our minds it seems it now seems this country the US has become the scariest country on this planet.

    Peace

    The hypocrisy of our government, our military and our people is mindnumbing.

    And if you go around the country and talk to people, you'll find plenty of Americans who want us to do all of that and then react with indignation at the suggestion of foreign military bases here, in the USA. Apparently it's our god-given right
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