The Israeli Police State

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  • cincybearcat
    cincybearcat Posts: 16,882
    _outlaw wrote:
    atleast someone is.


    Pure irony.
    hippiemom = goodness
  • fuck
    fuck Posts: 4,069
    cincybearcat wrote:
    Pure irony.
    oh yeah? how so?
  • fuck
    fuck Posts: 4,069
    I await the day you chime in with something that is atleast related to the topic, something that can be discussed... until then, your childish 2-word remarks will only hurt you...
  • timsinclair
    timsinclair Posts: 222
    _outlaw wrote:
    sticking to 2 or 3 points is what you have done to try to ignore many important issues that show your lies

    I hope you have some grounds for calling me a liar Outlaw because you havn't offered any yet. It is YOUR credibility that is on the line here. I have just demonstrated how your last two quotes have been deliberately altered to show that the Zionist leadership called for 'expulsion' and 'ethnic cleansing' of the Palestinian arabs. Regarding your quote of Moshe Dayan, you say that your deletion of the sentence:"In a considerable number of places, we purchased the land from Arabs and set up Jewish villages where there had once been Arab villages." is not important since
    It's not a key sentence at all, and it no way reverses the meaning of the passage.

    Well I dont think anyone will buy that Outlaw. The sentence you removed shows that Dayan was talking about BUYING land from Arabs, not expelling, or exterminating them. More worrying though is the FACT that you removed the sentence at all. Regarding the quote you provided from Israeli Prime Minister David ben Gurion, the situation is even more damning for you since you completely reversed the meaning of one sentence

    Origional Quote: ‘We do not wish, and do not need to expel the Arabs and take their place’

    Outlaw’s version: ‘We must EXPEL ARABS and take their places’

    Before I take the time to investigate your latest barrage of alleged quotations from Zionists, I think you need to either admit that you have dishonestly manipulated these quotes, or at least that you have cut and pasted them from some website without checking their authenticity. If you do not have the honesty or humility to do this then I think your credibility is lost.
    it seems everything you've pointed out about Edward Said has been lifted from wikipedia...Tell me, have you ever read the book? And if you have studied it, why would you go to wikipedia for your information and why did you avoid providing links?


    I am utterly astonished by this. Please check all my previous posts and you will see that I have not used wikepedia once, however you have used it as your main source – providing many links to wikepedia pages. My criticisms of Edward Said come largely from a book called ‘Defending the West’ by Ibn Warraq, which I have in my possession and, along with Edward Said’s ‘Orientalism’, I recently read when researching a piece of work for my degree. If you are going to have an informed view about these subjects, I suggest that you drop wikepedia and read Said’s ‘Orientalism’, which is by far the most important of his books since it is his main thesis.

    Orientalism has become the paradigm through which people of your persuasion view the whole conflict, any historical evidence that the land was empty is viewed as the 'racist' propaganda of Imperialist orientalists, however this is false. Edward Said is not a neutral observer in this fight, he was a leading menber of the PLO council until he fell out with Yasser Arafat because Arafat signed the olso peace accords with Israel. Like Arafat claimed to be Palestinian but was in fact Egyptian, for Said the guilt of Zionism is not a conclusion, it is his premise, as he himself admits:

    ‘My premise is that Israel developed as a social polity out of the Zionist thesis that Palestine’s colonization was to be accomplished for and by Jews by the displacement of the Palestinians; that in its conscious and declared idea about Palestine, Zionism attempted first to minimize, then to eliminate, then, all else failing, finally to subjugate the natives.’

    I think that it would be beneficial for you, if you want to gain a more balanced view, if you also read Ibn Warraq’s ‘Defending the West’ since it is the best available critique of Said. Neither of these books are specifically about the Israeli-Palestinian issue but they deal with the paradigms through which we view the conflict.

    I suggest that before you continue throwing your endless barrage of quotations, insults, and accusations at me, you answer the issues I have raised in this post.
  • spyguy
    spyguy Posts: 613
    _outlaw wrote:
    tim, the fact that you ignore 70% of my posts speaks a million words.

    not everyone has the time to painstakingly go through every single sentence of your 3000 word rants
  • cincybearcat
    cincybearcat Posts: 16,882
    _outlaw wrote:
    I await the day you chime in with something that is atleast related to the topic, something that can be discussed... until then, your childish 2-word remarks will only hurt you...

    If you remember, I use to try and discuss things with you...but I quickly found out it was impossible...I have now dedicated my life to warning others of wasting this time with you...

    To waste time is to waste life.

    Anytime anyone points out the possible "otherside" of the argument (although there are really far more than 2 sides to this story) you call them Israeli-apologists and dismiss everything. You want to preach and be heard without taking the time to listen.

    The problem is you make some very valid points, and I do appreciate your passion on the issue to a point. And perhaps without individuals like you standing so far to one side, maybe others would never alter their positions...I hope that's the case, but to pretend that you want a discussion and asking questions that you know you never will except any answers for is a joke. So, when you chastise pthers for not listening and for not thinking...I find it very ironic.
    hippiemom = goodness
  • fuck
    fuck Posts: 4,069
    timsinclair wrote:
    I hope you have some grounds for calling me a liar Outlaw because you havn't offered any yet.
    Oh no, I have. It's painfully obvious, too. You've just ignored it all.
    It is YOUR credibility that is on the line here. I have just demonstrated how your last two quotes have been deliberately altered to show that the Zionist leadership called for 'expulsion' and 'ethnic cleansing' of the Palestinian arabs. Regarding your quote of Moshe Dayan, you say that your deletion of the sentence:"In a considerable number of places, we purchased the land from Arabs and set up Jewish villages where there had once been Arab villages." is not important since
    Well I dont think anyone will buy that Outlaw. The sentence you removed shows that Dayan was talking about BUYING land from Arabs, not expelling, or exterminating them.
    No, he said a 'considerable amount' was bought. Obviously, this does not mean all of it, and if you take a look at your history, you'd know the amount of 'bought' land was only a small percentage. I thought you were so skilled at linguistics?
    Regarding the quote you provided from Israeli Prime Minister David ben Gurion, the situation is even more damning for you since you completely reversed the meaning of one sentence

    Origional Quote: ‘We do not wish, and do not need to expel the Arabs and take their place’

    Outlaw’s version: ‘We must EXPEL ARABS and take their places’

    Before I take the time to investigate your latest barrage of alleged quotations from Zionists, I think you need to either admit that you have dishonestly manipulated these quotes, or at least that you have cut and pasted them from some website without checking their authenticity. If you do not have the honesty or humility to do this then I think your credibility is lost.
    Ben-Gurion's quote, as I put it, has been documented in several biographies about him. If all those authors are incorrect, then fine, it's possible seeing as how so many people can inaccurately document what Ahmadinejad said about Israel (funny how it works both ways, huh). Either way, saying my 'credibility is lost' is laughable seeing as how throughout this entire post (and all others) you've ignored most of the main issues raised.
    I suggest that before you continue throwing your endless barrage of quotations, insults, and accusations at me, you answer the issues I have raised in this post.
    this is completely irrelevant. in fact, your entire post ignored pretty much everything I wrote, or anything I was trying to prove. I was nice enough to address points raised in this post, but the rest of it is just pointless. come back when you want to discuss (and, in your case, defend apartheid) the actual issue.
  • fuck
    fuck Posts: 4,069
    spyguy wrote:
    not everyone has the time to painstakingly go through every single sentence of your 3000 word rants
    http://forums.pearljam.com/showpost.php?p=5761563&postcount=69
    that doesn't look like 3000 words to me, and seeing as how you average 31.7 posts a day (all of which are in AMT), I'd say you have plenty of time.
  • spyguy
    spyguy Posts: 613
    _outlaw wrote:
    http://forums.pearljam.com/showpost.php?p=5761563&postcount=69
    that doesn't look like 3000 words to me, and seeing as how you average 31.7 posts a day (all of which are in AMT), I'd say you have plenty of time.

    #107 sums it up. you arent interested in debate
  • fuck
    fuck Posts: 4,069
    cincybearcat wrote:
    If you remember, I use to try and discuss things with you...but I quickly found out it was impossible...I have now dedicated my life to warning others of wasting this time with you...

    To waste time is to waste life.
    actually, there was no discussion between you and I because all you said was 'both sides are wrong in this, the only way to end violence is to drop the weapons', which is so incredibly cliche, and you never bothered to go further than that.
    Anytime anyone points out the possible "otherside" of the argument (although there are really far more than 2 sides to this story) you call them Israeli-apologists and dismiss everything. You want to preach and be heard without taking the time to listen.
    No. Anytime anyone bothers to ignore the fact that Israel is currently occupying and oppressing the Palestinians, and instead defend them by saying they are 'retaliating', then yes, of course they are being apologists, however I don't 'dismiss' everything, I address most points raised in their post, which is something others can't say.
    The problem is you make some very valid points, and I do appreciate your passion on the issue to a point. And perhaps without individuals like you standing so far to one side, maybe others would never alter their positions...I hope that's the case, but to pretend that you want a discussion and asking questions that you know you never will except any answers for is a joke. So, when you chastise pthers for not listening and for not thinking...I find it very ironic.
    Ask questions that I don't expect answers to? which questions have I raised that don't need answers? I'm curious, what was the last book you read about this particular subject?

    and you still haven't provided anything useful to this thread.
  • fuck
    fuck Posts: 4,069
    spyguy wrote:
    #107 sums it up. you arent interested in debate
    right, which is why I haven't been debating in this thread at all.

    you know, I liked it better when I was on your ignore list. ;)
  • spyguy
    spyguy Posts: 613
    _outlaw wrote:
    right, which is why I haven't been debating in this thread at all.

    you know, I liked it better when I was on your ignore list. ;)

    you think what you are doing here is debate? any counter point that is made to yours you follow it up with insults. the problem is you are not willing to accept any ideas or suggestions that is contrary to your beliefs. a debate with you is impossible and pointless.
  • fuck
    fuck Posts: 4,069
    spyguy wrote:
    you think what you are doing here is debate? any counter point that is made to yours you follow it up with insults. the problem is you are not willing to accept any ideas or suggestions that is contrary to your beliefs. a debate with you is impossible and pointless.
    first they're '3000 word rants', now they're 'insults'...

    my posts will be whatever you want it to be just so you can ignore the issues that are raised. keep doing that, it's worked out well for you so far. I, on the other hand, don't have anything else to say to you in this thread unless you address the topic (more specifically, post #69)...
  • spyguy
    spyguy Posts: 613
    _outlaw wrote:
    first they're '3000 word rants', now they're 'insults'...

    yes. 3000 word rants usually beginning with insults.
    _outlaw wrote:
    my posts will be whatever you want it to be just so you can ignore the issues that are raised. keep doing that, it's worked out well for you so far. I, on the other hand, don't have anything else to say to you in this thread unless you address the topic (more specifically, post #69)...

    you still dont get it. you dismiss anything said to you that doesnt fit your opinion. you will never accept that their are problems with the Hamas ideology. you clearly do not thinking Israel has a right to exist. I mean really there is no point in debating with you. I'll be happy to not come back to this pointless thread.
  • cincybearcat
    cincybearcat Posts: 16,882
    _outlaw wrote:
    actually, there was no discussion between you and I because all you said was 'both sides are wrong in this, the only way to end violence is to drop the weapons', which is so incredibly cliche, and you never bothered to go further than that.

    No. Anytime anyone bothers to ignore the fact that Israel is currently occupying and oppressing the Palestinians, and instead defend them by saying they are 'retaliating', then yes, of course they are being apologists, however I don't 'dismiss' everything, I address most points raised in their post, which is something others can't say.

    Ask questions that I don't expect answers to? which questions have I raised that don't need answers? I'm curious, what was the last book you read about this particular subject?

    and you still haven't provided anything useful to this thread.

    Yep, that's all I said...nice work again.

    You address their points? Nope, you call them names "Isreali apologist"...not a good discussion tactic by the way, but it's obvious you haven't learned that yet.

    No answer to any of your questions will satisfy you. Hell, I agreed with you abotu Israel neeing to make the first move and then to have the stomach to withstand some potential attacks from fringe groups without going back on the peace process and you found fault in that as well.
    hippiemom = goodness
  • fuck
    fuck Posts: 4,069
    cincybearcat wrote:
    Hell, I agreed with you abotu Israel neeing to make the first move and then to have the stomach to withstand some potential attacks from fringe groups without going back on the peace process and you found fault in that as well.
    when did I find fault in that?
  • cincybearcat
    cincybearcat Posts: 16,882
    _outlaw wrote:
    when did I find fault in that?


    I'm not going to go back and find it, it's in 1 of the 1000's of threads about Israel and Israel-Apologist that you've started.

    Anyhow, I will apologize for 1 thing, I haven;t really added to the debate in this thread and only am debating you about your tactics, which is wrong, I should have pm'd. I think the reason I did was this was another thread about the same topic where I did try and debate with you.

    Have a great day.
    hippiemom = goodness
  • fuck
    fuck Posts: 4,069
    cincybearcat wrote:
    I'm not going to go back and find it, it's in 1 of the 1000's of threads about Israel and Israel-Apologist that you've started.
    I expected that response. don't bother making a wild accusation without providing any proof because I never rejected something like that.
  • Nevermind
    Nevermind Posts: 1,006
    spyguy wrote:
    you think what you are doing here is debate? any counter point that is made to yours you follow it up with insults.
    Hypocrite of the year.
  • spyguy
    spyguy Posts: 613
    Nevermind wrote:
    Hypocrite of the year.

    YAY what did I win? what am I being hypocritical about?

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