The Israeli Police State

spyguy

_outlaw wrote:

haha

how easily you can be read...

if people transform hatred of occupation and oppression = hatred of Israel, then that's fine.

i mean, they're wrong, but it's fine to be wrong. who am I to judge?

on that note, who the fuck are any of you guys to judge me.

edit: oh, by any of "you guys", I meant you and your alternate accounts

hate Israel all you want. I asked you very specific questions about jews, not Israel.


questions you conveniently didnt answer.

fuck

spyguy wrote:

hate Israel all you want. I asked you very specific questions about jews, not Israel.


questions you conveniently didnt answer.

questions about Jews are irrelevant to this topic.

try to bait me to insult you and get banned all you like, but I'm done responding to the likes of you, who doesn't like to discuss issues, but rather sidetracks just to piss people off.

RolandTD20Kdrummer

people defending apartheid II


fucking nice

rebornFixer

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

people defending apartheid II


fucking nice

Where? In this thread?

Aparthied II has a nice ring, by the way. Sounds like it could be a Metallica song.

spyguy

_outlaw wrote:

questions about Jews are irrelevant to this topic.

try to bait me to insult you and get banned all you like, but I'm done responding to the likes of you, who doesn't like to discuss issues, but rather sidetracks just to piss people off.

I'm not baiting you. I'm asking you if you respect Jews? and if you have any jewish friends? very simple questions.

Strangest Tribe

It is realistic for someone to disagree about a certain religion or a certain country that gets prefferential treatment via one's tax dollars.

I'm not sure that equals racism.

timsinclair

Ok Roland. I think its time to substantiate your accusation. Apartheid south africa is despised because it segregated people on account of their race. blacks were denied most of their civilian rights because they were..well black. By contrast, Arab citizens of Israel have complete religious, economic, and political freedom. They have their own political parties in the Kenneset, they can be found at the top of most proffessions, including the courts. The only difference is that they are not required to do national service in the IDF lest they should be forced to fight their fellow Muslim Arabs. However, the Bedouin, who by the way are the true Arabs of Israel, serve willingly in the IDF and support the Jewish State. Of course there are examples of racism and discrimination in Israel, just as there are in any modern democracy, whether in Europe or the USA, but your characterization of the State of Israel is objectively and demonstrably false. Criticism of Israel is fine, but your claim that it is 'apartheid 2' is ludicrous. If I am wrong, show me why, and please illustrate the symetry between Israel and south Africa for us.

fuck

your arguments have no backup to support it. you just write anything and assume people will take it as fact, but it's just pure horse shit.

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel#International_recognition
]Arab rights in Israel are certainly not "equal"[/url]

And as for the comparison with Apartheid:

Finkelstein: 'Beyond Chutzpah'...
'..B'Tselem...observes in a recent report that the Israeli "roads regime" in the West Bank, "based on the principle of separation through discrimination, bears striking similarities to the racist Apartheid regime that existed in South Africa until 1994", and "entails a greater degree of arbitrariness than was the case with the regime that existed in South Africa." The roster of supposed anti-Semites making the verboten Apartheid analogy also includes the editorial board of 'Haaretz', which observed in September 2006 that "the Apartheid regime in the territories remains intact; millions of Palestinians are living without rights, freedom of movement or a livelihood, under the yoke of ongoing Israeli occupation," as well as former Israeli Knesset member Shulamit Aloni, former deputy Mayor of Jerusalem Meron Benvenisti, former Ambassador to South Africa Alon Liel, South African Archbishop and Nobel Laureate for peace Desmond Tutu, and "father" of human rights law in South Africa John Dugard. Indeed, the list apparently also includes former Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon. Pointing to his "fixation with Bantustans," Israeli researcher Gershom Gorenberg concluded that it is "no accident" that Sharon's plan for the West Bank "bears a striking resemblance to the "grand apartheid" promoted by the old South African regime." Sharon himself reportedly stated that "the Bantustan model was the most appropriate solution to the conflict."

fuck

http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?article=road_map_to_grand_apartheid

'..It's no accident that the plan bears a striking resemblance to the "grand apartheid" promoted by the old South African regime, in which blacks became citizens of "independent" bantustans. According to an Israeli diplomat who spent many years in Africa, Sharon paid both secret and public visits to South Africa in the 1980s. "I saw what interested him: bantustans, as if it were just an intellectual interest," the diplomat told me. "He had a fixation with bantustans that seemed out of proportion."

The diplomat's evaluation is that Sharon is seeking to re-create the bantustan system in the West Bank. "If you tell him it failed in South Africa, he'll say that there it didn't work because of the disproportion between blacks and whites, but that here [the Jews] are still a majority." Backing up that evaluation is a recently published booklet by far-right politician Benny Elon, who regards even Sharon's version of a Palestinian state as dangerous. The booklet contains a map of the state-to-be -- taken from a document published by Sharon a decade ago, according to Elon's spokesman. The map shows 11 separate enclaves with a gerrymandered shape familiar to anyone who remembers the bantustans of the old South Africa.

Here's where the outposts come in: They fill in the gaps between settlements in Area C. The initial number of settlers in each spot is tiny. But with those small numbers, the physical presence of Israeli civilians extends through Sharon's "security zones." The longer the outposts are in place, the more people will move to them and the harder it will be to evacuate them...'

fuck

spyguy wrote:

I'm not baiting you. I'm asking you if you respect Jews? and if you have any jewish friends? very simple questions.

they're more irrelevant than they are simple. you wanna ask those, feel free to PM me or ask in a topic where it is relevant. otherwise, quit trying to stray away from the main issues just to try to excuse Israel's occupation and oppression of the Palestinians.

timsinclair

_outlaw wrote:

..It's no accident that the plan bears a striking resemblance to the "grand apartheid" promoted by the old South African regime, in which blacks became citizens of "independent" bantustans. According to an Israeli diplomat who spent many years in Africa, Sharon paid both secret and public visits to South Africa in the 1980s. "I saw what interested him: bantustans, as if it were just an intellectual interest," the diplomat told me. "He had a fixation with bantustans that seemed out of proportion."

Hi Outlaw. Your post is based almost entirely on the supposed whispers of an anonymous diplomat, and you think my post was unsupported!!! You have not offered any evidence of why my evaluation of Arab rights in Israel is incorrect, instead you have turned attention to the 'west bank', however this territory is under Palestinian administration and would be a sovereign State of Palestine had its leadership not rejected all 9 offers of Statehood by Israel in exchange for peace. The problem is that they do not want a separate state, it is just a tactic in the long war against Israel. My points about Arabs in Israel proper PROVE that Israel is NOT practicing a racist apartheid. In the West Bank, however, things are a lot more complicated. Israel has the duty to protect Jews living there and enforcing a residents only policy on roads that go ONLY to the settlements is part of this. Likewise the security fence, which by the way is only a 'wall' for about 4% of its length, is purely about saving lives. If your country was hit by a massive wave of suicide bombing from a neigboring hostile nature, and there was no border between you to stop them getting through, I expect you would want a fence built too. The fence HAS saved MANY lives in Israel, thats why its there. Opposing it can only mean that you would rather see Jews getting blown apart in Israel's streets, cafe's and nightclubs. Would you?

spyguy

_outlaw wrote:

they're more irrelevant than they are simple. you wanna ask those, feel free to PM me or ask in a topic where it is relevant. otherwise, quit trying to stray away from the main issues just to try to excuse Israel's occupation and oppression of the Palestinians.

so me asking you if you like Jewish people or have any jewish friends is me trying to excuse Israel's occupation and oppression?

its a simple question which you refuse to answer. fuck the topic of the thread. its just a question.

criticizing Israel does not equal being anti-semtic but you take it too far. and by your clear avoidance of my question, its apparent how you feel. even though you dont have the balls to admit it publicly.

fuck

timsinclair wrote:

Hi Outlaw. Your post is based almost entirely on the supposed whispers of an anonymous diplomat, and you think my post was unsupported!!! You have not offered any evidence of why my evaluation of Arab rights in Israel is incorrect, instead you have turned attention to the 'west bank'

what the hell are you talking about. did you not see that I posted this link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Arabs#Recognition_of_discrimination
which refuted your suggestion that Israeli Arabs have equal rights.
some examples:
- Buying or leasing land to non-Jews religiously prohibited
- Israeli religious law does not allow Arabs to marry Israelis.
- Mixed-religious couples (such as Muslim and Jew, or Christian and Jew) not allowed marriage.
- 300,000 Israeli citizens unable to have recognized marriage in Israel due to Law of Halacha.

More on apartheid: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/1957644.stm

however this territory is under Palestinian administration and would be a sovereign State of Palestine had its leadership not rejected all 9 offers of Statehood by Israel in exchange for peace. The problem is that they do not want a separate state, it is just a tactic in the long war against Israel.

I'm sorry to say, but you're completely delusional. You clearly never give any back up to where you get this information from. It's far-fetched to say the least of it. Israel's 'offers' of statehood aren't just rejected by Palestine, they're rejected by the international community because they are completely irrational. Palestine would not be a viable state if they accepted such a terrible offer (which you never expand on, I wonder why), and Israel would certainly not help them in any way. Israel would keep the natural resources to themselves and cut off Palestine.

Palestine has called for a state along the '67 borders, something the entire international community (except for Israel and the U.S.) supports. IN FACT, EVERY YEAR... every single year... the UN General Assembly votes on this issue for Palestine and calls for a state to be made on the '67 borders. The only nations who ever vote against this are the U.S. and Israel (as well as a couple islands like Micronesia)... over 150 nations, however, vote 'yes.' This is even more legitimate than the 1947 UN Partition Plan which most Israelis look for to back up their opinion, and this has been an ongoing vote for over 10 years.

The highest judicial system in the world, the International Court of Justice, has called out Israel, and said that the Palestinians have the right to a country on the '67 borders. Most people completely ignore this, however, unsurprisingly.

In the West Bank, however, things are a lot more complicated. Israel has the duty to protect Jews living there and enforcing a residents only policy on roads that go ONLY to the settlements is part of this. Likewise the security fence, which by the way is only a 'wall' for about 4% of its length, is purely about saving lives. If your country was hit by a massive wave of suicide bombing from a neigboring hostile nature, and there was no border between you to stop them getting through, I expect you would want a fence built too. The fence HAS saved MANY lives in Israel, thats why its there. Opposing it can only mean that you would rather see Jews getting blown apart in Israel's streets, cafe's and nightclubs. Would you?

Actually, only 11 percent of the wall runs along Israel's internationally recognized boundary )the green line), the remainder of it cutting off some 15 percent of the West Bank, including some of it's richest land and water resources, as well as 274,000 Palestinians, who will live either in closed areas between the wall and the Green Line or in enclaves totally surrounded by the wall.

The settlements are illegal - in fact they constitute war crimes under international law.

"The Israeli government cannot use security concerns for Israeli's living in illegal settlements," Human Rights Watch observes, "to justify further encroachments into occupied territory."

"The underlying reason for the wall", B'Tselem suggests, is "not to provide maximum protection of the settlers" but rather "to establish facts on the ground that would perpetuate the existence of settlements and facilitate their future annexation into Israel."

In July 2004 the World Court handed down it's advisory opinion "Legal Consequences of the Construction of a wall in the Occupied Palestinian Territory". By a vote of fourteen to one (United States), it concluded that the wall is illegal under International law, and that it needs to be dismantled immediately.

You're especially quit to defend Israel's 'security measures' (which include killing children), but you never note the fact that Israel's 'security measures' are deemed illegal by the international community.

fuck

"The blockade imposed by Israel on the Gaza Strip over a year ago has left the entire population of 1.5 million Palestinians trapped with dwindling resources and an economy in ruins. Some 80 per cent of the population now depend on the trickle of international aid that the Israeli army allows in. This humanitarian crisis is man-made and entirely avoidable."

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/feature-stories/trapped-collective-punishment-gaza-20080812

fuck

spyguy wrote:

so me asking you if you like Jewish people or have any jewish friends is me trying to excuse Israel's occupation and oppression?

no, you asking irrelevant questions, rather than discussing the main issues.

its a simple question which you refuse to answer.

it's a simple, IRRELEVANT question, which you bring up to prove one point. I told you where you can ask me. Feel free to PM me or ask it in a thread where it is relevant.

fuck the topic of the thread.

tell that to the moderators of this board.

criticizing Israel does not equal being anti-semtic but you take it too far. and by your clear avoidance of my question, its apparent how you feel. even though you dont have the balls to admit it publicly.

and how do I "take it too far"?

spyguy

you're an excellent dancer

fuck

spyguy wrote:

you're an excellent dancer

takes one to know one

spyguy

_outlaw wrote:

takes one to know one

ha.

A) thats hilarious that you use teenage lingo.
are you implying I am dancing around a certain question? I will be happy to answer any question you ask.

fuck

spyguy wrote:

are you implying I am dancing around a certain question? I will be happy to answer any question you ask.

as if you could. you clearly have no interest in discussing the conflict. we're on the 3rd page of the thread, and I've been debating someone about it, and yet you've intentionally ignored any points made to ask me if I like Jews.

spyguy

_outlaw wrote:

as if you could. you clearly have no interest in discussing the conflict. we're on the 3rd page of the thread, and I've been debating someone about it, and yet you've intentionally ignored any points made to ask me if I like Jews.

I have plenty of interest in discussing this topic. I'm ready whenever you are. and in debating this, its relevant if you hate ALL jews. but since you have no balls in answering a direct question, I'll let it slid. so what do you want to discuss? the Israeli police state? what about it?