Coming to a Community Near You: Blackwater

RolandTD20KdrummerRolandTD20Kdrummer Posts: 13,066
edited October 2007 in A Moving Train
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.

http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

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Post edited by Unknown User on
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  • Why would Blackwater be providing "training" to any of the following?

    1. Iowa Department of Natural Resources

    2. Maricopa County, Arizona Sheriff's Department

    3. Matthews, North Carolina Police

    4. Atlanta Police

    5. Chillicothe, Ohio Police

    6. Charleston, South Carolina Police

    7. Port Chester, NY Police

    8. Highland, Indiana Police

    9. Unalaska, Alaska Police

    10. Metropolitan Washington, DC Police

    11. Charlottesville, Virginia Police

    12. Metropolitan Washington Airports Authority (Dulles and Reagan National Airports)

    13. St. Louis County Police (Missouri)

    14. Queen Anne's County, Maryland Police

    15. Prince George's County, Maryland Police

    16. FBI SWAT Team

    17. Gloucester Township, New Jersey Police

    18. Tempe, Arizona Police

    19. New York Police Department

    20. Yonkers, New York Police

    21. Fairfax County, Virginia Police

    22. Maplewood, New Jersey Police

    23. Gastonia, North Carolina Police

    24. Tampa Police

    25. U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA)

    26. DeKalb County, Georgia Police

    27. Arlington County, Virginia Police

    28. Baltimore Police

    29. U.S. Coast Guard

    30. Suffolk, Virginia Police

    31. Franklin City, Virginia Police

    32. Milford, Delaware Police

    33. University of Texas Police

    34. Norfolk, Virginia Police

    35. Ottawa-Carleton, Canada Police

    36. San Bernardino County, California Sheriff

    37. Plattsburgh, New York Police

    38. Chicago Police Department

    39. Oregon State Police

    40. Los Angeles Police Department

    41. Tonawanda, New York Police

    42. Special Forces of Colombia

    43. Jacksonville, North Carolina Police

    44. Harvey Cedars, New Jersey Police

    45. Elmira, New York Police

    46. Department of Corrections, New Jersey

    47. Lexington, Kentucky Police

    48. Willimantic, Connecticut Police

    49. Georgia Department of Law Enforcement

    50. City of Fairfax, Virginia Police

    51. Alexandria, Virginia Police Special Operations

    52. Illinois State Police

    53. Dallas, Texas Police

    54. Hamilton, Ohio Police

    55. Morganton, North Carolina Police
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

    (\__/)
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  • jeffbrjeffbr Seattle Posts: 7,177
    Why would Blackwater be providing "training" to any of the following?

    I don't know. Maybe they have expertise in some situations. What do your conspiracy nut friends think? Are they going to round us up and start shooting us?
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • jeffbr wrote:
    I don't know. Maybe they have expertise in some situations. What do your conspiracy nut friends think? Are they going to round us up and start shooting us?

    What kind of situations would you expect a mercenary army to train regular civilian police officers?

    can you list a few?
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

    (\__/)
    ( o.O)
    (")_(")
  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    jeffbr wrote:
    I don't know. Maybe they have expertise in some situations. What do your conspiracy nut friends think? Are they going to round us up and start shooting us?

    It's probably part of the homeland security budget. How convenient.

    all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
    except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
  • jeffbrjeffbr Seattle Posts: 7,177
    What kind of situations would you expect a mercenary army to train regular civilian police officers?

    can you list a few?

    Close quarters defense, firearms training, k9 training, general security consulting, etc...

    Your "mercenary army" tag, while probably accurate for what they're doing in Iraq, is hardly what they have been known for pre-Iraq. The founder is a former Navy SEAL. I'm sure a Navy SEAL could teach a cop a thing or two.

    Now that I've answered your questions, answer my original question - what do your wacky conspiracy nut friends think Blackwater is up to domestically?
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • jeffbrjeffbr Seattle Posts: 7,177
    gue_barium wrote:
    It's probably part of the homeland security budget. How convenient.

    That is probably true. I'm no fan of Homeland Security or the bullshit Blackwater has been up to in Iraq.
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • jeffbr wrote:
    Close quarters defense, firearms training, k9 training, general security consulting, etc...

    Your "mercenary army" tag, while probably accurate for what they're doing in Iraq, is hardly what they have been known for pre-Iraq. The founder is a former Navy SEAL. I'm sure a Navy SEAL could teach a cop a thing or two.

    Now that I've answered your questions, answer my original question - what do your wacky conspiracy nut friends think Blackwater is up to domestically?


    All of that is already available. So why use Blackwater? They're not exactly cheap btw.

    Did you notice they are expensive at all?
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

    (\__/)
    ( o.O)
    (")_(")
  • flywallyflyflywallyfly Posts: 1,453
    jeffbr wrote:
    I don't know. Maybe they have expertise in some situations. What do your conspiracy nut friends think? Are they going to round us up and start shooting us?

    http://www.thenation.com/doc/20051010/scahill

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/07/AR2005090702214.html

    http://www.alternet.org/katrina/25320/

    http://www.counterpunch.org/maass06022006.html
  • jeffbrjeffbr Seattle Posts: 7,177
    All of that is already available. So why use Blackwater? They're not exactly cheap btw.

    Did you notice they are expensive at all?

    Readily available by other consultants? So what? If someone chooses Acme Security or Blackwater USA, why does it get your panties in a bunch?

    As far as cost goes, perhaps Gue is correct. Maybe there is some sort of idiotic federal subsidy for police forces who choose Blackwater.

    You never answered my question.
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • jeffbr wrote:
    Readily available by other consultants? So what? If someone chooses Acme Security or Blackwater USA, why does it get your panties in a bunch?

    As far as cost goes, perhaps Gue is correct. Maybe there is some sort of idiotic federal subsidy for police forces who choose Blackwater.

    You never answered my question.

    You question is pointless. Why do you think I'm posting about it?

    For one, it can be seen as a combining of police and military. In reality it is, however why use special military training with the high price tag?
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

    (\__/)
    ( o.O)
    (")_(")
  • spiral outspiral out Posts: 1,052
    Keep on rockin in the free world!!!!

    The economy has polarized to the point where the wealthiest 10% now own 85% of the nation’s wealth. Never before have the bottom 90% been so highly indebted, so dependent on the wealthy.
  • gabersgabers Posts: 2,787
    Why would Blackwater be providing "training" to any of the following?
    9. Unalaska

    Unalaska! That's golden! Big terror threat on a tiny island in the Aleutians. Someone probably mistook a drunk Inuit for a terrorist and called in the cavalry.

    Everything I've seen, heard, and read about Blackwater leads me to the conclusion that they're a bunch of above the law, trigger happy, backwoods, no conscious having assholes. They damn sure don't have a place training a civilian police force.
  • gabers wrote:
    Why would Blackwater be providing "training" to any of the following?
    9. Unalaska

    Unalaska! That's golden! Big terror threat on a tiny island in the Aleutians. Someone probably mistook a drunk Inuit for a terrorist and called in the cavalry.

    Everything I've seen, heard, and read about Blackwater leads me to the conclusion that they're a bunch of above the law, trigger happy, backwoods, no conscious having assholes. They damn sure don't have a place training a civilian police force.

    You're right Unalaska looks pretty suspicious... it's disguised as a quiet sleepy town on an island in the wilderness of Alaska...how insidious!

    Oh the humanity...
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

    (\__/)
    ( o.O)
    (")_(")
  • puremagicpuremagic Posts: 1,907
    jeffbr wrote:
    Close quarters defense, firearms training, k9 training, general security consulting, etc...

    Your "mercenary army" tag, while probably accurate for what they're doing in Iraq, is hardly what they have been known for pre-Iraq. The founder is a former Navy SEAL. I'm sure a Navy SEAL could teach a cop a thing or two.

    Now that I've answered your questions, answer my original question - what do your wacky conspiracy nut friends think Blackwater is up to domestically?


    The "conspiracy nut" tactic, how pitful? Everyone is not ex-Navy Seal are they, hell some aren't even citizens of the U.S. or hold loyality to any country.

    Every state has a police training center, why do we need to have a private paramilitary force training public law enforcement officers. If Homeland is funding this training then why not send them to VA(Quantico), GA, FL, TX, CO, CA or UT for advance military training courses? There are advance U.S. military training instruction site all over the U.S., Blackwater is not unique in this training.

    So, what do you think Blackwater is up to?
    SIN EATERS--We take the moral excrement we find in this equation and we bury it down deep inside of us so that the rest of our case can stay pure. That is the job. We are morally indefensible and absolutely necessary.
  • You question is pointless. Why do you think I'm posting about it?

    For one, it can be seen as a combining of police and military. In reality it is, however why use special military training with the high price tag?

    Police forces can't learn anything from the military? If A group of active special forces came to your local police department to train the police in SWAT type training or bomb squad or urban combat, would you have a problem with that? or is it just because it's Blackwater?

    Edit - Besides the fact that there is probably some Haliburtan style kickback and/or overbilling going on, I don't have a problem with them training police forces. I'm sure that in specialized fields, they are better trained then the average local cop.
    My whole life
    was like a picture
    of a sunny day
    “We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
    ― Abraham Lincoln
  • puremagicpuremagic Posts: 1,907
    Police forces can't learn anything from the military? If A group of active special forces came to your local police department to train the police in SWAT type training or bomb squad or urban combat, would you have a problem with that? or is it just because it's Blackwater?

    Edit - Besides the fact that there is probably some Haliburtan style kickback and/or overbilling going on, I don't have a problem with them training police forces. I'm sure that in specialized fields, they are better trained then the average local cop.


    Seems to me that the State law enforcement personnel would be better trained to teach the military about urban combat. Both the ATF and FBI train and work with law enforcement personnel for bomb squads. Again, why is Blackwater needed?
    SIN EATERS--We take the moral excrement we find in this equation and we bury it down deep inside of us so that the rest of our case can stay pure. That is the job. We are morally indefensible and absolutely necessary.
  • puremagic wrote:
    Seems to me that the State law enforcement personnel would be better trained to teach the military about urban combat. Both the ATF and FBI train and work with law enforcement personnel for bomb squads. Again, why is Blackwater needed?

    Probably because our gov't needs to find more ways to get more contracts/money to Blackwater.

    It just seems like there is some other sinister motive that Roland is implying, and I don't know what that would be. Maybe I'm just calloused to the fact that our gov't (especially this administration) has shady side-deals to companies and people...

    And do you think state law enforcement could train the military in urban combat? I think you have that backwards.
    My whole life
    was like a picture
    of a sunny day
    “We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
    ― Abraham Lincoln
  • jeffbrjeffbr Seattle Posts: 7,177
    puremagic wrote:
    The "conspiracy nut" tactic, how pitful?

    Consider the source.
    puremagic wrote:
    Every state has a police training center, why do we need to have a private paramilitary force training public law enforcement officers. If Homeland is funding this training then why not send them to VA(Quantico), GA, FL, TX, CO, CA or UT for advance military training courses? There are advance U.S. military training instruction site all over the U.S., Blackwater is not unique in this training.

    Blackwater isn't unique, they are one of many private security companies that do everything from providing protection for ambassadors / public officials, to security consulting, to law enforcement training, to paramilitary operations. Do you really not understand why private firms train public and private officials, groups and companies?

    puremagic wrote:
    So, what do you think Blackwater is up to?

    I already answered a number of posts ago. I think it is what it looks like. They are providing training to law enforcement. Sorry if that isn't sexy enough for Team Tin Hat.
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • jeffbrjeffbr Seattle Posts: 7,177
    puremagic wrote:
    Seems to me that the State law enforcement personnel would be better trained to teach the military about urban combat. Both the ATF and FBI train and work with law enforcement personnel for bomb squads. Again, why is Blackwater needed?

    If you really believe this, then that explains the major disconnect we will continue to have. State law enforcement training military personnel in urban combat? Jesus Christ, New Mexico must have one hell of a special forces oriented state patrol. Please provide ANY examples of state law enforcement providing tactical urban combat training to our armed forces. I'd be really interested in this.
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • jeffbrjeffbr Seattle Posts: 7,177
    Maybe I'm just calloused to the fact that our gov't (especially this administration) has shady side-deals to companies and people...

    This is the logical explanation for me. It is one thing to be skeptical and cynical, it is another to indulge in "sky is falling" doomsday fantasies.
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • jlew24asujlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    Team Tin Hat. :D:D:D:D:D
  • puremagicpuremagic Posts: 1,907
    jeffbr wrote:
    If you really believe this, then that explains the major disconnect we will continue to have. State law enforcement training military personnel in urban combat? Jesus Christ, New Mexico must have one hell of a special forces oriented state patrol. Please provide ANY examples of state law enforcement providing tactical urban combat training to our armed forces. I'd be really interested in this.


    Consider the State and its activities. Yes, we do have a well trained State law enforcement personnel.

    After events in Samolia, the military instituted close quarter urban training and it was incorporated at the War College in Maryland and invited speakers were law enforcement officers. Stop acting like the military is know all.
    SIN EATERS--We take the moral excrement we find in this equation and we bury it down deep inside of us so that the rest of our case can stay pure. That is the job. We are morally indefensible and absolutely necessary.
  • puremagicpuremagic Posts: 1,907
    jeffbr wrote:
    This is the logical explanation for me. It is one thing to be skeptical and cynical, it is another to indulge in "sky is falling" doomsday fantasies.

    This is your interpretation not mines, thus, your fantasy.
    SIN EATERS--We take the moral excrement we find in this equation and we bury it down deep inside of us so that the rest of our case can stay pure. That is the job. We are morally indefensible and absolutely necessary.
  • puremagicpuremagic Posts: 1,907
    jeffbr wrote:
    Consider the source..

    I believe you were the original source of the quote.


    jeffbr wrote:
    Blackwater isn't unique, they are one of many private security companies that do everything from providing protection for ambassadors / public officials, to security consulting, to law enforcement training, to paramilitary operations. Do you really not understand why private firms train public and private officials, groups and companies?

    I understand the purpose of a security firm, even Blackwater on a domestic level and when utilized in the security of a facility. Their role for training local law enforcement, no I don't understand the justification for their involvement.
    SIN EATERS--We take the moral excrement we find in this equation and we bury it down deep inside of us so that the rest of our case can stay pure. That is the job. We are morally indefensible and absolutely necessary.
  • jlew24asujlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    puremagic wrote:
    Their role for training local law enforcement, no I don't understand the justification for their involvement.

    what is so hard to understand? they are a bunch of american ex-military highly trained people. here is just one requirement for working at blackwater

    Minimum of 8 years of active US military experience (National Guard & reserve time does not count) and qualified in Special Operations Forces (Navy: SEAL, Army: Special Forces, Ranger, Marine: Force Recon, Air Force CCT, PJ)

    they bring years of experience to the table. they seem like a perfect fit to train young rookie civilian police force.

    seriously, what don't you understand?
  • jeffbrjeffbr Seattle Posts: 7,177
    puremagic wrote:
    I believe you were the original source of the quote.

    I was the source of the quote. But let me try this again, with a little more clarity, and less room for you to get sidetracked: Consider the source of the thread, which prompted the quote.
    puremagic wrote:

    I understand the purpose of a security firm, even Blackwater on a domestic level and when utilized in the security of a facility. Their role for training local law enforcement, no I don't understand the justification for their involvement.

    There are thousands of consulting firms consulting public and private organizations on many and diverse topics. You can find consultants to provide specialized expertise in fields ranging from business efficiency to accounting to specialized areas of employment law to specialized weapons usage to crowd control to executive protection, etc... Blackwater is just one of those thousands. A law enforcement organization can't be expert at all things. They are, by nature, generalists. They need specialized expertise to come in and provide training. Every law enforcement agency does it to one degree or another.
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • puremagicpuremagic Posts: 1,907
    jeffbr wrote:
    I was the source of the quote. But let me try this again, with a little more clarity, and less room for you to get sidetracked: Consider the source of the thread, which prompted the quote.


    You and I were interacting, not Roland, thus, I wasn't sidetracked, I was responding directly to you. Clarification noted.


    jeffbr wrote:

    There are thousands of consulting firms consulting public and private organizations on many and diverse topics. You can find consultants to provide specialized expertise in fields ranging from business efficiency to accounting to specialized areas of employment law to specialized weapons usage to crowd control to executive protection, etc... Blackwater is just one of those thousands. A law enforcement organization can't be expert at all things. They are, by nature, generalists. They need specialized expertise to come in and provide training. Every law enforcement agency does it to one degree or another.


    I have concerns when a company, even if it presents itself as a security consulting firm, is contracted for training and/or supplemental local law enforcement protection, and, yet is permitted to operate domestically in secret and without public accountability. It's not like they're training the police to be bodyguards. Seems to me you're ok with allowing Blackwater to do what you would never permit the FBI/CIA simply because they're a private entity.
    SIN EATERS--We take the moral excrement we find in this equation and we bury it down deep inside of us so that the rest of our case can stay pure. That is the job. We are morally indefensible and absolutely necessary.
  • puremagic wrote:
    I have concerns when a company, even if it presents itself as a security consulting firm, is contracted for training and/or supplemental local law enforcement protection, and, yet is permitted to operate domestically in secret and without public accountability. It's not like they're training the police to be bodyguards. Seems to me you're ok with allowing Blackwater to do what you would never permit the FBI/CIA simply because they're a private entity.

    "...is permitted to operate domestically in secret and without public accountability."

    ????

    I thought we were talking about them being hired to train police? how are they operating domestically in secret if they are training? And if they or any of their employees commit a crime, why wouldn't they be subject to our legal system (public accountability).


    Question for you... let's say your local small town police force pays a local guy who happens to be a retired green beret to come in a couple of times to teach officers different hand-to-hand combat skills.... would you have a problem with that?

    Besides the money thing which I already conceded is a problem, I just can't figure out what the main issue is with this whole thing?
    My whole life
    was like a picture
    of a sunny day
    “We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
    ― Abraham Lincoln
  • flywallyflyflywallyfly Posts: 1,453
    "...is permitted to operate domestically in secret and without public accountability."
    how are they operating domestically in secret if they are training? And if they or any of their employees commit a crime, why wouldn't they be subject to our legal system (public accountability).

    http://www.alternet.org/katrina/25320/
  • I think the police are well on their way to becoming militarized. More than people realize.

    But that's normal...
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

    (\__/)
    ( o.O)
    (")_(")
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