Canadian Health Care

lukin2006

Rockin'InCanada wrote:

Plus I may add beemster that the reason that the government does not making sweeping changes is the fact that healthcare in our country is something that most Canadians feel passionaltly about the most. It would be political suicide to mess around with things too much...our system will never be like the south, thank God at that. But it does need changes realize though that there is a very line to walk on and in the end voters will matter most to these people....

Your living in a dream world if you do not think our system is broken. Its more than flawed. I never said to incorporate a system like the states, we need to look to europe where they have some very good examples of health care that runs far better than ours. France and Sweden apparantly have excellent health care.

Secondly, if its experimental treatment OHIP, may or may not cover it.

lukin2006

This was done in 2000, there might be a more current list.

Where 30 just a few spots ahead of the US. But we should strive to be where France is, or at least in the top 10. Like I say we are paying for BMW and getting Pinto of a health care system.

The World Health Organization's ranking
of the world's health systems.
Source: WHO World Health Report - See also Spreadsheet Details (731kb)

Rank CountryView this list in alphabetic order View this list in alphabetic order View this list in alphabetic order

1 France
2 Italy
3 San Marino
4 Andorra
5 Malta
6 Singapore
7 Spain
8 Oman
9 Austria
10 Japan
11 Norway
12 Portugal
13 Monaco
14 Greece
15 Iceland
16 Luxembourg
17 Netherlands
18 United Kingdom
19 Ireland
20 Switzerland
21 Belgium
22 Colombia
23 Sweden
24 Cyprus
25 Germany
26 Saudi Arabia
27 United Arab Emirates
28 Israel
29 Morocco
30 Canada
31 Finland
32 Australia
33 Chile
34 Denmark
35 Dominica
36 Costa Rica
37 United States of America
38 Slovenia
39 Cuba
40 Brunei
41 New Zealand
42 Bahrain
43 Croatia
44 Qatar
45 Kuwait
46 Barbados
47 Thailand
48 Czech Republic
49 Malaysia
50 Poland
51 Dominican Republic
52 Tunisia
53 Jamaica
54 Venezuela
55 Albania
56 Seychelles
57 Paraguay
58 South Korea
59 Senegal
60 Philippines
61 Mexico
62 Slovakia
63 Egypt
64 Kazakhstan
65 Uruguay
66 Hungary
67 Trinidad and Tobago
68 Saint Lucia
69 Belize
70 Turkey
71 Nicaragua
72 Belarus
73 Lithuania
74 Saint Vincent and the Grenadines
75 Argentina
76 Sri Lanka
77 Estonia
78 Guatemala
79 Ukraine
80 Solomon Islands
81 Algeria
82 Palau
83 Jordan
84 Mauritius
85 Grenada
86 Antigua and Barbuda
87 Libya
88 Bangladesh
89 Macedonia
90 Bosnia-Herzegovina
91 Lebanon
92 Indonesia
93 Iran
94 Bahamas
95 Panama
96 Fiji
97 Benin
98 Nauru
99 Romania
100 Saint Kitts and Nevis
101 Moldova
102 Bulgaria
103 Iraq
104 Armenia
105 Latvia
106 Yugoslavia
107 Cook Islands
108 Syria
109 Azerbaijan
110 Suriname
111 Ecuador
112 India
113 Cape Verde
114 Georgia
115 El Salvador
116 Tonga
117 Uzbekistan
118 Comoros
119 Samoa
120 Yemen
121 Niue
122 Pakistan
123 Micronesia
124 Bhutan
125 Brazil
126 Bolivia
127 Vanuatu
128 Guyana
129 Peru
130 Russia
131 Honduras
132 Burkina Faso
133 Sao Tome and Principe
134 Sudan
135 Ghana
136 Tuvalu
137 Ivory Coast
138 Haiti
139 Gabon
140 Kenya
141 Marshall Islands
142 Kiribati
143 Burundi
144 China
145 Mongolia
146 Gambia
147 Maldives
148 Papua New Guinea
149 Uganda
150 Nepal
151 Kyrgystan
152 Togo
153 Turkmenistan
154 Tajikistan
155 Zimbabwe
156 Tanzania
157 Djibouti
158 Eritrea
159 Madagascar
160 Vietnam
161 Guinea
162 Mauritania
163 Mali
164 Cameroon
165 Laos
166 Congo
167 North Korea
168 Namibia
169 Botswana
170 Niger
171 Equatorial Guinea
172 Rwanda
173 Afghanistan
174 Cambodia
175 South Africa
176 Guinea-Bissau
177 Swaziland
178 Chad
179 Somalia
180 Ethiopia
181 Angola
182 Zambia
183 Lesotho
184 Mozambique
185 Malawi
186 Liberia
187 Nigeria
188 Democratic Republic of the Congo
189 Central African Republic
190 Myanmar

RockinInCanada

beemster wrote:

Your living in a dream world if you do not think our system is broken. Its more than flawed. I never said to incorporate a system like the states, we need to look to europe where they have some very good examples of health care that runs far better than ours. France and Sweden apparantly have excellent health care.

Secondly, if its experimental treatment OHIP, may or may not cover it.

You think our taxes our high...look at Swedens.....I will bet higher than ours....

RockinInCanada

beemster wrote:

Your living in a dream world if you do not think our system is broken. Its more than flawed. I never said to incorporate a system like the states, we need to look to europe where they have some very good examples of health care that runs far better than ours. France and Sweden apparantly have excellent health care.

Secondly, if its experimental treatment OHIP, may or may not cover it.

My system presented would help with the flaws...I fail to see the system as broke....but that is my opinion....

lukin2006

Rockin'InCanada wrote:

You think our taxes our high...look at Swedens.....I will bet higher than ours....

I am sure there are other countries that are taxed higher than Canada, that probably include Sweden, France and other countries throughout the world. Taxes are also hard to interpret because most countries have different tax rates depending on income.

That still doesn't solve the problem that your living in a dream world if you do not think our system is broken and needs major work. The first step pay our health care proffesionals like the US health care proffesionals or thier will continue to be a shortage of workers in health care. Listen we pay our Police, Firefighters, ambulance workers, and most other government employees at levels the same or higher as thier US counterparts, so why not health care workers, especially Doctors. Common sense dictates that if I can make more money down south, then I'll go, and many Doctors and other proffesionals have gone.

As far as the politicians not wanting to fix it, like I said, they do not heve the intestinal fortitude to do the job. But most politicians just talk about fixing, I want one who will reform. I am one person who is not afraid of change.

surferdude

Rockin'InCanada wrote:

My system presented would help with the flaws...I fail to see the system as broke....but that is my opinion....

There are some fundamental serious flaws in our system.

One, sourcing of doctors. We don't pay North American market rates. We will always have a doctor shortage which will get worse over the next 50 years as our population ages.

Two, nursing shortage and the fact we allow them to unionize. Much the same problem as with doctors but compounded by the unionization. When you and I are federally mandated to have no choice then the employee should have no choice to unionize. Unionization of a monopoly service is a recipe for disaster.

Three, unionization of other healthcare industry jobs. Same issue as with the nurses.

Lack of guidelines and principles to deal with extremely expensive medicines and procedures that provide no hope of cure.

RockinInCanada

A little off topic I am engineer within the petroleum world and I want to unionize (and there are hundreds along the same), we get treated like crap and with piss-poor wage (well its not too bad actually but I view us as major contributors to the industry) compared to the amount of money we bring in to the company....Im talking major benefit cuts when record profits occur, expectations to work o/t with no monetary gain. As i get older I am seriously looking at leading an unionization movement...anyhow WAY OFF Topic...lol

Yeah I agree that we need to pay doctors more...but you guys make it sound like we live in a 3rd world country and you say I am the one dreaming...sorry for being optimistic but I have NEVER had a problem...6-10 hrs in the hospital never for me...I know experiences will vary but at the end of day I will take my system over 95% of the worlds....it is not broke.....I would agree to a tax INCREASE to pay doctors a better wage if it would lead to more hospitals

lukin2006

surferdude wrote:

There are some fundamental serious flaws in our system.

One, sourcing of doctors. We don't pay North American market rates. We will always have a doctor shortage which will get worse over the next 50 years as our population ages.

Two, nursing shortage and the fact we allow them to unionize. Much the same problem as with doctors but compounded by the unionization. When you and I are federally mandated to have no choice then the employee should have no choice to unionize. Unionization of a monopoly service is a recipe for disaster.

Three, unionization of other healthcare industry jobs. Same issue as with the nurses.



Lack of guidelines and principles to deal with extremely expensive medicines and procedures that provide no hope of cure.

My point, if we are serious about health care we need to pay the Doctors market rates.

As far as nurses, I have a relative who worked both sides of the border, she liked the southern side better.

surferdude

Rockin'InCanada wrote:

A little off topic I am engineer within the petroleum world and I want to unionize (and there are hundreds along the same), we get treated like crap and with piss-poor wage (well its not too bad actually but I view us as major contributors to the industry) compared to the amount of money we bring in to the company....Im talking major benefit cuts when record profits occur, expectations to work o/t with no monetary gain. As i get older I am seriously looking at leading an unionization movement...anyhow WAY OFF Topic...lol

I can't understand how anyone who is good at their job and takes pride in their work would ever want to unionize. I think of engineers as professionals, professionals do not unionize in my books. If you don't like how your current employer treats you find a new employer.

In general I'm against unions, except in dangerous occupations. Unions unfairly force a company to keep employees while not placing this same demand on an employee to stay with a company. The fact that employees can take another job during a strike but a company cannot hire replacement workers is so one-sided it's ridiculous.

Rockin'InCanada wrote:

Yeah I agree that we need to pay doctors more...but you guys make it sound like we live in a 3rd world country and you say I am the one dreaming...sorry for being optimistic but I have NEVER had a problem...6-10 hrs in the hospital never for me...I know experiences will vary but at the end of day I will take my system over 95% of the worlds....it is not broke.....I would agree to a tax INCREASE to pay doctors a better wage if it would lead to more hospitals

I accept our system for what it is. It works if you are seriously ill. It does not work that well when you are not.

RockinInCanada

surferdude wrote:

I can't understand how anyone who is good at their job and takes pride in their work would ever want to unionize. I think of engineers as professionals, professionals do not unionize in my books. If you don't like how your current employer treats you find a new employer.

In general I'm against unions, except in dangerous occupations. Unions unfairly force a company to keep employees while not placing this same demand on an employee to stay with a company. The fact that employees can take another job during a strike but a company cannot hire replacement workers is so one-sided it's ridiculous.


I accept our system for what it is. It works if you are seriously ill. It does not work that well when you are not.

LOL....Im just a frusrated employee and I do LOVE my job and i am very very good at it....however your right it is a company thing....I still think it it a travesty some people expect people to work for free ( I will always be against working FREE hours for the man...hell it doesn't even need to paid...give me the hours as paid time off at regular wage at least)....I actually would not go through with all that I said...however this working o/t conception is widely held in industry and is a complete farce IMHO....you know just a bad day with management today....we all go through that every once and again as you would understand....

sourdough

From personal experience: Both of my parents have had extensive dealings with hospitals as both of them had cancer and my dad recently passed away from it. There was a definite bed shortage which was a glaring problem from the outset, however, the care that they got was top notch in my opinon. We never had to wait long before we were taken care of and even when my dad was dying in his bed, they continued to give him drugs and medicine in order to keep him around until his out of town sisters were able to make it.

That said, the system does need some overhauling. Our citizens are aging and it is outpacing our capacity. My wife is currently filling out her med-school applications and I'm surprised how much easier it is to get into American med schools than Canadian ones. this is a good thing though. It seems all of the applicants who get rejected from Canadian schools, head south and land spots.

In regards to the Sweden comment, yes they do pay much higher taxes, but they also have one of the happiest and healthiest societies. Despite the taxes, they have produced an extremely high amount of mega successful companies despite their small population and a huge number return to Sweden if they ever leave. They are obviously doing something right.

lukin2006

surferdude wrote:

I can't understand how anyone who is good at their job and takes pride in their work would ever want to unionize. I think of engineers as professionals, professionals do not unionize in my books. If you don't like how your current employer treats you find a new employer.

In general I'm against unions, except in dangerous occupations. Unions unfairly force a company to keep employees while not placing this same demand on an employee to stay with a company. The fact that employees can take another job during a strike but a company cannot hire replacement workers is so one-sided it's ridiculous.


I accept our system for what it is. It works if you are seriously ill. It does not work that well when you are not.

I agree, I work in a unionized shop. unions only help the lazy, and get those people thier jobs.

Your right about about the healthcare, I just would like us to strive to help those who aren't critically ill, but would like their joints repaired or replaced in a timely fashion so they can live relatively pain free. and that goes for any procedure.

lukin2006

sourdough wrote:

From personal experience: Both of my parents have had extensive dealings with hospitals as both of them had cancer and my dad recently passed away from it. There was a definite bed shortage which was a glaring problem from the outset, however, the care that they got was top notch in my opinon. We never had to wait long before we were taken care of and even when my dad was dying in his bed, they continued to give him drugs and medicine in order to keep him around until his out of town sisters were able to make it.

That said, the system does need some overhauling. Our citizens are aging and it is outpacing our capacity. My wife is currently filling out her med-school applications and I'm surprised how much easier it is to get into American med schools than Canadian ones. this is a good thing though. It seems all of the applicants who get rejected from Canadian schools, head south and land spots.


In regards to the Sweden comment, yes they do pay much higher taxes, but they also have one of the happiest and healthiest societies. Despite the taxes, they have produced an extremely high amount of mega successful companies despite their small population and a huge number return to Sweden if they ever leave. They are obviously doing something right.

Sorry about your parents, yes our systems seems to treat the seriously ill in timely fashion, but I would like it to treat the not so serious in a timely fashion.

blueandwhite

beemster wrote:

I agree, I work in a unionized shop. unions only help the lazy, and get those people thier jobs.

There are always two sides to that coin.

I've worked in a couple of non-unionized shops (the wonders of a Law degree) and as a temp in a few factories, and I can tell you that unions aren't all bad. Unions may help the lazy, but the absence of a union can also allow an employer to exploit the hard-worker. The gap between the rich and the working poor is widening, so I'm not completely convinced that unions are of no use.

RockinInCanada

beemster wrote:

I agree, I work in a unionized shop. unions only help the lazy, and get those people thier jobs.

Your right about about the healthcare, I just would like us to strive to help those who aren't critically ill, but would like their joints repaired or replaced in a timely fashion so they can live relatively pain free. and that goes for any procedure.

Thats total BS that unions help only the lazy.....there are lazy workers regardless of their affliations....sometimes they are needed and sometimes they are not....

exhausted

Rockin'InCanada wrote:

A little off topic I am engineer within the petroleum world and I want to unionize (and there are hundreds along the same), we get treated like crap and with piss-poor wage (well its not too bad actually but I view us as major contributors to the industry) compared to the amount of money we bring in to the company....Im talking major benefit cuts when record profits occur, expectations to work o/t with no monetary gain. As i get older I am seriously looking at leading an unionization movement...anyhow WAY OFF Topic...lol

come work for the EPCs if you think you don't make anything.

surferdude

Rockin'InCanada wrote:

sometimes they are needed and sometimes they are not....

Did you just say that sometimes lazy workers are needed!!!! You must be having a tough day. Have a beer or three when you get home.

exhausted

the concept of unionize is somewhat in conflict to what our primaries loyalties are supposed to be, that being the public and the employer.

as i vaguely recall.

RockinInCanada

surferdude wrote:

Did you just say that sometimes lazy workers are needed!!!! You must be having a tough day. Have a beer or three when you get home.

No I said unions do not help only lazy workers...they allow the big corps to stop expecting crap like working o/t for free....do you think it is justified to work for free even when your employer threatens that it may impede your moving up if you don't. That is BS.....

blueandwhite

exhausted wrote:

the concept of unionize is somewhat in conflict to what our primaries loyalties are supposed to be, that being the public and the employer.

as i vaguely recall.

Who's your employer supposed to be loyal to?