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Canadian Health Care
lukin2006
Posts: 9,087
I am just curious to know if we in Canada are getting our moneys worth when it comes to healthcare.
I personally believe that we are paying for a cadilac and only getting a pinto.
We pay very high taxes in Canada.
Some examples why I say this.
-thousands of fellow canucks have no family doctor and can not find one
-if you have no doctor, you must use hospitals or walkin clinics ( if available - until recently none were available where I live)
-hospital wait times are usually 6-10 hours for non emergency conditions
-it can take months to get in to see an orthapedic surgeon and then many more months before the surgury is done.
-as a matter of fact most specialist take months to see.
-if its life threatening I do trust that we will be taken care of.
However I know a few people who would like thier non life threatening problems taken care, so they do not have to live in pain and it gives them peace olf mind.
This is an open debate. Also curious to hear from people from other countries about thier health care.
I personally believe that we are paying for a cadilac and only getting a pinto.
We pay very high taxes in Canada.
Some examples why I say this.
-thousands of fellow canucks have no family doctor and can not find one
-if you have no doctor, you must use hospitals or walkin clinics ( if available - until recently none were available where I live)
-hospital wait times are usually 6-10 hours for non emergency conditions
-it can take months to get in to see an orthapedic surgeon and then many more months before the surgury is done.
-as a matter of fact most specialist take months to see.
-if its life threatening I do trust that we will be taken care of.
However I know a few people who would like thier non life threatening problems taken care, so they do not have to live in pain and it gives them peace olf mind.
This is an open debate. Also curious to hear from people from other countries about thier health care.
I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
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I know the system in Canada is far from perfect (I worked 10 years for a Canadian company), but does this happen in Canada?
Thanks for your reply.
First off I would like to say, I really hope you defeat your illness, and my thoughts and prayers are with you.
I believe it is considered experimental, you need approval from the (Ontario Health Insurance Plan), I could be wrong, maybe someone knows for sure.
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
You are Yale educated and you really think that a Provider would let someone with an AA make those kinds of decisions? Whoever is screwing you is probably very well educated, but that in no way means to imply that he/she is honest. Their aim is to profit regardless of what common sense may dictate. I'm sorry to hear about your situation. But, I just thought you might like to know that they are screwing you on purpose, not because they are ill-informed.
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=272825
And I'm quite aware of the myriad ways in which Americans get screwed, believe me.
yes it happens all the time. if its not approaved its not approaved. There was just a big todo about a guy with cancer. my numvers are likely off, but the jiff of it was that he was fighting for treatment. he has like 6 months to live, and there is treatment that would extend that 3-4 years, but they wont pay because it is not a cure / wont cause remission.
essencially they said "yes, we know that this money will extend your life, but it just dont seem worth it"
shitttttyy deal
And I won't make the same mistakes
(Because I know)
Because I know how much time that wastes
(And function)
Function is the key
no, they would be an insurace adjuster.
And I won't make the same mistakes
(Because I know)
Because I know how much time that wastes
(And function)
Function is the key
That is incorrect. An adjuster definitely does not determine what procedures should or shouldn't be covered. Company policy dictates that. For example, an adjuster would look at the claim and compare it to company policy to determine whether or not it is covered per the policy.
Here's an example of adjuster work in other industries:
http://stats.bls.gov/oco/ocos125.htm
Common sense would dictate that determining whether or not a medical procedure is "experimental" is definitely something that would require the opinion of "other professionals" such as doctors..etc.
Adjusters are just the messengers.
In the case of medical insurance providers, the doctors who are acting as consultants are employees of the insurance company. I'm sure you can figure out how things work out from there.
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=272825
yes, but also, the drugs MUST pass regulatory boards to be on any insurance company's policy coverage (ie fda). well, I suppose they could cover electives, but why would they, but they cant afford that becase A- experimental drugs are costly, B- opens the door to too many loopholes within contracts.
And I won't make the same mistakes
(Because I know)
Because I know how much time that wastes
(And function)
Function is the key
most of the companies do have a doc at some level making a call...granted those physicians prob get bonuses for keeping costs down so it's not surprising that they deny stuff right away. They do it all the time. I'm sure this is pissing off your doctor too; esp since there is evidence based, peer-reviewed literature to back up the treatment you guys chose.
The first misconception is that its free, thats just not true, we pay extremely high taxes and in some provinces we pay a health care premium and employers pay a health care tax. In the province I'm from (Ontario) the current government introduced a health care premium early in thier mandate.
They claimed this would reduce wait. What a joke, thousands still have no doctor. If you are in pain, needing orthopedic prcedures done you can wait a year or more. Most common procedure's done by a surgeon can take months just to see the surgeon.
Many Canadians now opt to go to the States and pay for it themselves, just so they do not have to live in pain.
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
The waiting times in the states are sometimes a concern as well, although if you have a referral you get in much quicker. If I wanted to see one of the big docs in a big city it would take 6 mos sometimes, if you just called w/o a referral from another MD. If you have someone else make the appt, the wait time is MUCH less and the time to Surgery is usually much less also. The down side is the insurance company and having to play that game. Sometimes it works fine but as soon as teh costs get high, it's a whole lot harder to have the insurance company follow through.
In Canada, waiting list are getting shorter, it's a matter of working on them and erasing the names that should not be on the list anymore, the waiting list in Quebec have been reduced just by doing that, it's stupid but so simple. Doctors must be more available for practicing (erase the stupid quotas), immigrants doctors must be recognized, chirurgical room must be made available (build hospitals, clinics) and we should open more spaces in schools for nurses, doctors and all these guys... just my two cents...
-Jean-Jacques Rousseau
I'm somewhat familiar with the quota system and doctors. I'm sure doctors would be more willing to work if they got paid for seeing the patients they do...correct me if i'm wrong, but they just have to treat a certain number to get their paycheck and any number of patients over that is in essence work done for free. No one truly likes to work for free esp if you can meet the quota in 6 or 7 mos. Docs in the US do a lot of pro bono work but I'm willing to bet it isn't 5 or 6 mos worth of free labor.
I kept saying that insurances don't pay. He kept saying they HAVE to. I kept saying they only HAVE to pay what the contract says...and THEY are the ones who decide if you really are sick, and what treatment they will pay.
I had paid into, through my work, long term disability, and when I got sick, they didn't pay. He said they have to. I tried to explain that some person at their company makes the decisions and will override what a doctor says and they come up with things so they don't have to pay.
I had a niece who died back in '92. Her disability was denied, and she died!!! It was okayed after her death...so my sister did get to pay those bills, but geez...she was denied as not being sick...she fricking died!!!! How sick did they want!
People think they are secure financially and if they get sick they find out they really weren't as secure as they thought.
I so tried to explain this in many threads.
I wish you luck!!! Its bad enough to be sick and dealing with that, then to have to deal with those fricking insurance people is just wrong!!!
I remember asking the adjuster what medical degree he had, he tells me that some lady at the company made the decision, so I ask what kind of doctor she is...she was an LPN!!!!
They overrode a few doctors that had diagnosed me and made up their own diagnosis. They never did pay. I did have to sell my house and all that. It was 2 years before any government disability began.
I was so pissed, and sick at the same time...and trying to pay the bills, while fighting with that fricking guy in some office in Florida.
I am so sorry you have to deal with this end of this... *aggravated sound..argh*.
If we don't have a referal, a specialist will not see you at all.
Another problem are Docs that don't like to refer you to specialist if they feel it minor. My question is, how do they know? Let the specialist decide.
I am having an ankle problem, and all the Doc said was the x ray was normal, and that a surgeon wil not help you. Mind you, I went three times
before it was even x ray, so the OHIP got billed three times for the same problem, and pobably a fourth because I will likely need to seek medical attention elsewhere.
This system of ours is very frustrating. There needs to be changes, but no government has the intestinal fortitude to make the changes.
The first change that needs to be made is to pay the health care providers closer to what the US health care providers make. this will allow us to retain
healthcare workers and recruit health care workers.
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
That would be frustrating. A lot of Gen med docs do have the knowledge to make decisions but you're abosolutely right b/c people do specialize b/c it's impossible to know everything and be competent about everything.
On a side note, can you get a referral to a physical therapist for the ankle (the lower extremity and the shoulder are 2 things i've done a decent amount of work with)...just b/c it's not fx doesn't mean it's not a host of other things. Your doc is right, a surgeon won't cut most likely, but will be much better versed in ortho issues...hell, even a non operative sports med guy would be good.
I think you're right in terms of the pay, you have to be able to recruit and keep top notch docs if you want top notch care. And if docs can travel south to make much more money, most will.
1st thing first to address....hippiemom, my mothers chemo was covered in Canada and there were no hassles at all, and it was cutting edge. I went up to the cancer wards precription window gave them the paper and an hour later I left with my mothers medicine, nothing to it.
2nd thing Healthcare reform in Canada:
- Our current systen is flawed but is far from broke. The system in the USA is no better beemster, where we pay high taxes they pay some insane health care premiums and some of the time you are given a list of doctors from the insurance company on who you must see if you want to be re-imburesed. Plus the USA system is flawed that access to healthcare is essentially only for the people with money to spend. In Canada we allow everyone equal care but we need to adjust methods of delivery, where in the USA if you are poor (and I am not talking a free loading poor...but a person who still works three days a week while taking care of a child) you are going to be screwed from anything from a broken leg to at worse cancer. In Canada no matter the the issue you will receive treatment.
- I agree we do need to make changes. One I suggest is allowing doctors to practise in the private sector only after completing a minumum of 35 hours a week. One can go on to say that will not allow much time for the doctor to practice privately, my arguement that I honestly believe is that the time alloted for private use (assuming 75% do go smei-private) will be directly proportional to those Canadian citizens that will actually use the private system. I for one will refrain from any use of this system, but that is my choice.
- Private clinics can offer specilists, MRI's, X-Rays, and consultation. This right here will decrease the public list for these needed applications. Surgeries such as joint replacement, and minor non-life threatening injuries should also be available to the private side to decrease the public waiting list. I call on you to research the Alberta study where a three month trial was completed to see the effect of allowing people to pay for hip/joint replacement and how that would decrease the public list. It is estiamated that the public list went down approx. (do not quote this as gospel) as 25%. Which is a large number and proves further study IMHO.
- All life threatening injuries will be covered only through the public sector, no person regardless of their income should have their life prioritized over someone who simply makes less money, that is the soul and essence of our system and we cannot take that away. Some will say I am by proposing some pay services I go against this ideology, but the point is there that there is no lives at stake and the paying will drastically decrease the wait for the public side...win win situation. We have to give a little somewhere to improve the system as a whole. This inlcudes all forms of transplants, cancer therapy, heart surgeries, etc. You know what I am getting at.
- Sorry but taxes remain the same...to try to quantitate someone's use or non-use of the public/private system would create a bureacratic nightmare similar to that of the gun registry. So much time would be spent arguing the logistics of everything it would be horrible one can only imagine. If you have a better plan for this please let me know. Therefore the public system, which is and always will be the primary system, is still taken care of.
- Foreign doctors should go through rigourous testing to verify their education, this can be done quite easily and will give access to those that right now are shot down completly.
In a nutshell I think reforms are necessary, however we must not look south that system is deplorable and once you take into account health care premiums and restricted access things are not as rosy. We must look at the European systems, which happen to consistently rank in the top groups for healthcare provider.
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
Secondly, if its experimental treatment OHIP, may or may not cover it.
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
Where 30 just a few spots ahead of the US. But we should strive to be where France is, or at least in the top 10. Like I say we are paying for BMW and getting Pinto of a health care system.
The World Health Organization's ranking
of the world's health systems.
Source: WHO World Health Report - See also Spreadsheet Details (731kb)
Rank CountryView this list in alphabetic order View this list in alphabetic order View this list in alphabetic order
1 France
2 Italy
3 San Marino
4 Andorra
5 Malta
6 Singapore
7 Spain
8 Oman
9 Austria
10 Japan
11 Norway
12 Portugal
13 Monaco
14 Greece
15 Iceland
16 Luxembourg
17 Netherlands
18 United Kingdom
19 Ireland
20 Switzerland
21 Belgium
22 Colombia
23 Sweden
24 Cyprus
25 Germany
26 Saudi Arabia
27 United Arab Emirates
28 Israel
29 Morocco
30 Canada
31 Finland
32 Australia
33 Chile
34 Denmark
35 Dominica
36 Costa Rica
37 United States of America
38 Slovenia
39 Cuba
40 Brunei
41 New Zealand
42 Bahrain
43 Croatia
44 Qatar
45 Kuwait
46 Barbados
47 Thailand
48 Czech Republic
49 Malaysia
50 Poland
51 Dominican Republic
52 Tunisia
53 Jamaica
54 Venezuela
55 Albania
56 Seychelles
57 Paraguay
58 South Korea
59 Senegal
60 Philippines
61 Mexico
62 Slovakia
63 Egypt
64 Kazakhstan
65 Uruguay
66 Hungary
67 Trinidad and Tobago
68 Saint Lucia
69 Belize
70 Turkey
71 Nicaragua
72 Belarus
73 Lithuania
74 Saint Vincent and the Grenadines
75 Argentina
76 Sri Lanka
77 Estonia
78 Guatemala
79 Ukraine
80 Solomon Islands
81 Algeria
82 Palau
83 Jordan
84 Mauritius
85 Grenada
86 Antigua and Barbuda
87 Libya
88 Bangladesh
89 Macedonia
90 Bosnia-Herzegovina
91 Lebanon
92 Indonesia
93 Iran
94 Bahamas
95 Panama
96 Fiji
97 Benin
98 Nauru
99 Romania
100 Saint Kitts and Nevis
101 Moldova
102 Bulgaria
103 Iraq
104 Armenia
105 Latvia
106 Yugoslavia
107 Cook Islands
108 Syria
109 Azerbaijan
110 Suriname
111 Ecuador
112 India
113 Cape Verde
114 Georgia
115 El Salvador
116 Tonga
117 Uzbekistan
118 Comoros
119 Samoa
120 Yemen
121 Niue
122 Pakistan
123 Micronesia
124 Bhutan
125 Brazil
126 Bolivia
127 Vanuatu
128 Guyana
129 Peru
130 Russia
131 Honduras
132 Burkina Faso
133 Sao Tome and Principe
134 Sudan
135 Ghana
136 Tuvalu
137 Ivory Coast
138 Haiti
139 Gabon
140 Kenya
141 Marshall Islands
142 Kiribati
143 Burundi
144 China
145 Mongolia
146 Gambia
147 Maldives
148 Papua New Guinea
149 Uganda
150 Nepal
151 Kyrgystan
152 Togo
153 Turkmenistan
154 Tajikistan
155 Zimbabwe
156 Tanzania
157 Djibouti
158 Eritrea
159 Madagascar
160 Vietnam
161 Guinea
162 Mauritania
163 Mali
164 Cameroon
165 Laos
166 Congo
167 North Korea
168 Namibia
169 Botswana
170 Niger
171 Equatorial Guinea
172 Rwanda
173 Afghanistan
174 Cambodia
175 South Africa
176 Guinea-Bissau
177 Swaziland
178 Chad
179 Somalia
180 Ethiopia
181 Angola
182 Zambia
183 Lesotho
184 Mozambique
185 Malawi
186 Liberia
187 Nigeria
188 Democratic Republic of the Congo
189 Central African Republic
190 Myanmar
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
You think our taxes our high...look at Swedens.....I will bet higher than ours....
My system presented would help with the flaws...I fail to see the system as broke....but that is my opinion....
I am sure there are other countries that are taxed higher than Canada, that probably include Sweden, France and other countries throughout the world. Taxes are also hard to interpret because most countries have different tax rates depending on income.
That still doesn't solve the problem that your living in a dream world if you do not think our system is broken and needs major work. The first step pay our health care proffesionals like the US health care proffesionals or thier will continue to be a shortage of workers in health care. Listen we pay our Police, Firefighters, ambulance workers, and most other government employees at levels the same or higher as thier US counterparts, so why not health care workers, especially Doctors. Common sense dictates that if I can make more money down south, then I'll go, and many Doctors and other proffesionals have gone.
As far as the politicians not wanting to fix it, like I said, they do not heve the intestinal fortitude to do the job. But most politicians just talk about fixing, I want one who will reform. I am one person who is not afraid of change.
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
One, sourcing of doctors. We don't pay North American market rates. We will always have a doctor shortage which will get worse over the next 50 years as our population ages.
Two, nursing shortage and the fact we allow them to unionize. Much the same problem as with doctors but compounded by the unionization. When you and I are federally mandated to have no choice then the employee should have no choice to unionize. Unionization of a monopoly service is a recipe for disaster.
Three, unionization of other healthcare industry jobs. Same issue as with the nurses.
Lack of guidelines and principles to deal with extremely expensive medicines and procedures that provide no hope of cure.
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
Yeah I agree that we need to pay doctors more...but you guys make it sound like we live in a 3rd world country and you say I am the one dreaming...sorry for being optimistic but I have NEVER had a problem...6-10 hrs in the hospital never for me...I know experiences will vary but at the end of day I will take my system over 95% of the worlds....it is not broke.....I would agree to a tax INCREASE to pay doctors a better wage if it would lead to more hospitals
My point, if we are serious about health care we need to pay the Doctors market rates.
As far as nurses, I have a relative who worked both sides of the border, she liked the southern side better.
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
In general I'm against unions, except in dangerous occupations. Unions unfairly force a company to keep employees while not placing this same demand on an employee to stay with a company. The fact that employees can take another job during a strike but a company cannot hire replacement workers is so one-sided it's ridiculous.
I accept our system for what it is. It works if you are seriously ill. It does not work that well when you are not.
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
LOL....Im just a frusrated employee and I do LOVE my job and i am very very good at it....however your right it is a company thing....I still think it it a travesty some people expect people to work for free ( I will always be against working FREE hours for the man...hell it doesn't even need to paid...give me the hours as paid time off at regular wage at least)....I actually would not go through with all that I said...however this working o/t conception is widely held in industry and is a complete farce IMHO....you know just a bad day with management today....we all go through that every once and again as you would understand....