Thanks for that unsolicited and unneeded history lesson. Your still not justufying the use of atomic weapons, the effects of which are STILL felt by some innocents in parts of Japan.
yeah, far be it from me to state facts to get in the way of your anti-America rhetoric. but the fact remains, you attack somebody without provocation, you don't get to dictate what kind of response you should get. like I said, the bombings were overkill. but Japan committed the first atrocity, not the US.
and what's more, the bombs were going to be dropped on someone at some point. if nothing more so there would be no non-believers on the power of this technology. not saying they SHOULD have been, but they WOULD have been. once they were created, that end was unavoidable. so would you have rather the US dropped the bomb on 275,000 innocent Russians? 275,000 Germans? or maybe Russia dropping it on 275,000 Americans (this is my bet on how you really feel)? or maybe on 275,000 Chinese or Vietnamese? the fact is, once it was created, it was going to be used for everybody to see. Japan was the target. they (their government) committed an atrocity against not only the US, but against innocent people of other nations. it's a sad chapter of history, no doubt, but the blame is missplaced.
haha I can't even get into how ridiculous this statement is cuz I gotta go to bed. But maybe another time..
no, maybe not. I already know your line of thinking and can sum it up in 3 words.....everything's America's fault. it's not a new concept on this board. Thanks.
The men at Pearl Harbor may have been struck first, but they're military men... volunteers for the armed forces. In no way is a soldier's death less tragic than a civilians, but still.... you get the idea.
It's a town full of losers and I'm pulling out of here to win
Yeah, gosh, those poor Japanese. I mean, look at them now. Their miniscule population and dirt-poor economy are the lasting testaments to the big, bad Americans bombing their cities.
It's easy to sit back in 2008 and gnash one's teeth while criticizing the people who kept the world (relatively) free. It's also easy to sit in the comfort of one's home and bemoan the fact that America is such a bad place filled with bad people who do bad things.
I think people are forgetting just how crazy and fucked up the Japanese were. They were the bad guys in the war, not us. If we didn't stop them they would have exterminated all non-Japanese.
Don't waste your guilt on what happened in Japan. They got what they deserved.
And yes, I understand that children and innocents perished in the attacks, but I don't care. If it came down to a five-year-old girl or my grandfather, well, I don't guess I need to tell you which person I would pick and I'm pretty sure it works out that way on the other side, too.
Tell ya what: If you think it's so indefensible that we dropped nukes on the Japanese, go down to a VFW and talk to a Pacific Theater of Operations veteran and ask them about undeserving of the bomb Japan was. I've got a feeling they might disagree with your armchair quarterbacking after the fact.
You should be kissing the asses of the men who made what had to have been the toughest decision of their lives. Without their cowardly act, you'd probably not exist and the world would be one giant slave state.
"Almost all those politicians took money from Enron, and there they are holding hearings. That's like O.J. Simpson getting in the Rae Carruth jury pool." -- Charles Barkley
Why aren't these bombings considered a travesty? Correct me if I'm wrong, but the thinking seems to be that it was justified because it ended the war. But how can destroying an entire city's worth of civilians ever be justified? The two attacks killed about 140,000 people I think... some soldiers, some civilians.
I don't know, I was just thinking about this recently and it appalls me. Has the horror of it really been covered up, or is there something I'm missing which makes it less nauseating?
It's fucking war. It isn't suppose to be appealing. Was it sad and a 'travesty'? Sad, yes. A travesty? No. Bad parties are a 'travesty'. Nuking two cites? That is 'fucked'? But guess what? That is what the situation was at the time. You want to see something really fucked up? Google 'Dresden bombing'.
It's fucking war. It isn't suppose to be appealing. Was it sad and a 'travesty'? Sad, yes. A travesty? No. Bad parties are a 'travesty'. Nuking two cites? That is 'fucked'? But guess what? That is what the situation was at the time. You want to see something really fucked up? Google 'Dresden bombing'.
exactly. we need to realize how fucked up dropping nukes on civilian cities actually is, and also take a look at the fire bombing of dresden and other major civilian bombing campaigns to hopefully come to the conclusion that war is fucking hell, unnecessary and barbaric. There should be no place for it in the world today.
Admiral William Leary, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, called the atomic bomb, "a barbarous weapon", also saying, "the Japanese were already defeated and willing to surrender".
Terms of surrender had been offered, diplomatic channels were being pursued, the war was over. So the US was not so much ending the world war as they were starting the cold war, using a terrible weapon on hundreds of thousands of human beings.
yeah, far be it from me to state facts to get in the way of your anti-America rhetoric. but the fact remains, you attack somebody without provocation, you don't get to dictate what kind of response you should get. like I said, the bombings were overkill. but Japan committed the first atrocity, not the US.
and what's more, the bombs were going to be dropped on someone at some point. if nothing more so there would be no non-believers on the power of this technology. not saying they SHOULD have been, but they WOULD have been. once they were created, that end was unavoidable. so would you have rather the US dropped the bomb on 275,000 innocent Russians? 275,000 Germans? or maybe Russia dropping it on 275,000 Americans (this is my bet on how you really feel)? or maybe on 275,000 Chinese or Vietnamese? the fact is, once it was created, it was going to be used for everybody to see. Japan was the target. they (their government) committed an atrocity against not only the US, but against innocent people of other nations. it's a sad chapter of history, no doubt, but the blame is missplaced.
We are all everly thankful to the us and the proud americans for saving the world's ass in 1945. But the necessity of using bombs whose effects are still felt 60 years later is questionnable. They probably could have gotten the same effect with time and regular warfare. The bombs seemed mostly like a mix of payback and show-off on the american part, and the results are condemnable, whatever your patriotic feelings.
Btw, questionning the acts of your historical leader does not mean you wish 275,000 of your fellow citizens were dead.
yeah, far be it from me to state facts to get in the way of your anti-America rhetoric. but the fact remains, you attack somebody without provocation, you don't get to dictate what kind of response you should get. like I said, the bombings were overkill. but Japan committed the first atrocity, not the US.
Brilliant logic. How about instead of locking up killers we kill them? And their families, their children, their brothers and sisters. We go to the neighbours and we shoot a few people as well.
A killer doesn't get to dictate what kind of response he should get.
Don't waste your guilt on what happened in Japan. They got what they deserved.
And yes, I understand that children and innocents perished in the attacks, but I don't care.
It sickens me that you don't even care. It's one thing to say it was something that had to be done (there's no way any of us can know what would've happened if they hadn't dropped the bombs) but it's another thing to say innocent people deserved to die, and to say you don't even care. It's disgusting.
Brilliant logic. How about instead of locking up killers we kill them? And their families, their children, their brothers and sisters. We go to the neighbours and we shoot a few people as well.
A killer doesn't get to dictate what kind of response he should get.
how about we rise above the level of our enemy? if we attack in the same manner as our attacker then we are no better than they.
don't for a minute think that i am an apologist for the japanese during WW2. im just tired of all the bullshit and chestthumping that says they started it so we will finish it with overwhelming and unimaginable horror. and what we visit upon them will be thoroughly deserved.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
no, maybe not. I already know your line of thinking and can sum it up in 3 words.....everything's America's fault. it's not a new concept on this board. Thanks.
No, not everything is America's fault...but America is responsible for those attacks. Nobody else is to blame. That's why what you said is ridiculous. Just like the Japanese are to blame for Pearl Harbor. Nobody else.
Yeah, gosh, those poor Japanese. I mean, look at them now. Their miniscule population and dirt-poor economy are the lasting testaments to the big, bad Americans bombing their cities.
It's easy to sit back in 2008 and gnash one's teeth while criticizing the people who kept the world (relatively) free. It's also easy to sit in the comfort of one's home and bemoan the fact that America is such a bad place filled with bad people who do bad things.
I think people are forgetting just how crazy and fucked up the Japanese were. They were the bad guys in the war, not us. If we didn't stop them they would have exterminated all non-Japanese.
Don't waste your guilt on what happened in Japan. They got what they deserved.
And yes, I understand that children and innocents perished in the attacks, but I don't care. If it came down to a five-year-old girl or my grandfather, well, I don't guess I need to tell you which person I would pick and I'm pretty sure it works out that way on the other side, too.
Tell ya what: If you think it's so indefensible that we dropped nukes on the Japanese, go down to a VFW and talk to a Pacific Theater of Operations veteran and ask them about undeserving of the bomb Japan was. I've got a feeling they might disagree with your armchair quarterbacking after the fact.
You should be kissing the asses of the men who made what had to have been the toughest decision of their lives. Without their cowardly act, you'd probably not exist and the world would be one giant slave state.
Those towns weren't military targets. You're talking about "innocents perishing" like they were collateral damage. That's not the case. They were the target....civilian targets. That's not war, that's terrorism.
It sickens me that you don't even care. It's one thing to say it was something that had to be done (there's no way any of us can know what would've happened if they hadn't dropped the bombs) but it's another thing to say innocent people deserved to die, and to say you don't even care. It's disgusting.
I agree with this... how you can say you don't care about that many civilians dying based on a completely theoretical (and arguably inaccurate) outcome if we didn't drop the bomb is beyond me.
It's a town full of losers and I'm pulling out of here to win
The thing is, the people we dropped the bomb on weren't the Big Bad Japanese (i.e. the Japanese military and government). It was innocent civilians...
You do realize that the Japanese killed between 20-30 million innocent civilians of their own in the Asian Holocaust.
If anything the atomic bombs have made the world forget about many of the atrocities that the Japanese committed in WWII: the rape of Nanking, the Manilla Massacre, the Bataan Death March, the refusal to adhere to the Geneva Convention, the fact that almost 1 in 3 POWs captured by the Japanese died, the medical experimentation performed in their death camps, the forced prostitution of citizens of captured cities, testing cyanide gas on POWs.
War is hell, but I personally think marching between 3 and 4 hundred thousand civilians and soldiers onto a beach and other execution sites and tying them up and then shooting them one by one like the Japanese did at Nanking is much worse than dropping the atomic bomb.
It sickens me that you don't even care. It's one thing to say it was something that had to be done (there's no way any of us can know what would've happened if they hadn't dropped the bombs) but it's another thing to say innocent people deserved to die, and to say you don't even care. It's disgusting.
If you're going to quote me, quote the entire thought.
I said I don't care because it came down to a choice: Nuke the Japanese or lose hundreds of thousands of troops in a full-scale invasion. Apparently you don't get that the Japanese were not going to surrender if we stepped foot on their islands. They were going to fight to the death.
Also, I guess you would have rather me make the argument that the bombings were "something that had to be done (there's no way any of us can know what would've happened if they hadn't dropped the bombs)" so you could play the "but we didn't know if there was another way" card.
Well, sorry to disappoint you, but making that argument is some 21st century bullshit.
The people who were pulling the strings in Japan were sick fucks who believed they were the master race and destined to rule the world. Their people bought into it when things were going well, but once they started to get their asses kicked we should forget all the horrible war crimes their armies committed? Nope, not going to happen.
Dropping those bombs did a couple of things: First, it defeated the Japanese both physically and mentally (and mentally was the most important part); second, it let the world know that we had a weapon that would totally flatten them if they tried to extend the war in some sort of mad land grab.
War is disgusting and evil. Innocent people die. Horrible decisions must be made.
Looking back on it and criticizing the U.S. for wanting to stop the worst war the world had ever seen by dropping bombs on cities that were factory towns for the Japanese war machine is a pathetic attempt at saying you -- a person who benefitted from the bombs -- are above those folks. You're smarter and more compassionate. You are more human.
ONly problem is, you're discounting the experiences of those people. You're trying to take your sensibilities as a 21st century who has never experienced those horrors and ascribe them to the people who were involved. History, at least non-revisionist history, doesn't work that way.
If taking into account the concerns of WWII leaders makes me disgusting, it's a label I wear proudly.
"Almost all those politicians took money from Enron, and there they are holding hearings. That's like O.J. Simpson getting in the Rae Carruth jury pool." -- Charles Barkley
You do realize that the Japanese killed between 20-30 million innocent civilians of their own in the Asian Holocaust.
If anything the atomic bombs have made the world forget about many of the atrocities that the Japanese committed in WWII: the rape of Nanking, the Manilla Massacre, the Bataan Death March, the refusal to adhere to the Geneva Convention, the fact that almost 1 in 3 POWs captured by the Japanese died, the medical experimentation performed in their death camps, the forced prostitution of citizens of captured cities, testing cyanide gas on POWs.
War is hell, but I personally think marching between 3 and 4 hundred thousand civilians and soldiers onto a beach and other execution sites and tying them up and then shooting them one by one like the Japanese did at Nanking is much worse than dropping the atomic bomb.
like i said earlier....
we should have dropped a couple more bombs on Japan.....
Take me piece by piece..... Till there aint nothing left worth taking away from me.....
exactly. we need to realize how fucked up dropping nukes on civilian cities actually is, and also take a look at the fire bombing of dresden and other major civilian bombing campaigns to hopefully come to the conclusion that war is fucking hell, unnecessary and barbaric. There should be no place for it in the world today.
Admiral William Leary, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, called the atomic bomb, "a barbarous weapon", also saying, "the Japanese were already defeated and willing to surrender".
Terms of surrender had been offered, diplomatic channels were being pursued, the war was over. So the US was not so much ending the world war as they were starting the cold war, using a terrible weapon on hundreds of thousands of human beings.
No pre-bombing documents from the Japanese government mention the possibility of surrender. Believe what ever new age myth you like, but the Japanese were not surrendering without the bombs.
All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a thousand enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with the swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.
You do realize that the Japanese killed between 20-30 million innocent civilians of their own in the Asian Holocaust.
If anything the atomic bombs have made the world forget about many of the atrocities that the Japanese committed in WWII: the rape of Nanking, the Manilla Massacre, the Bataan Death March, the refusal to adhere to the Geneva Convention, the fact that almost 1 in 3 POWs captured by the Japanese died, the medical experimentation performed in their death camps, the forced prostitution of citizens of captured cities, testing cyanide gas on POWs.
War is hell, but I personally think marching between 3 and 4 hundred thousand civilians and soldiers onto a beach and other execution sites and tying them up and then shooting them one by one like the Japanese did at Nanking is much worse than dropping the atomic bomb.
This argument seems familiar...:D
All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a thousand enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with the swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.
No pre-bombing documents from the Japanese government mention the possibility of surrender. Believe what ever new age myth you like, but the Japanese were not surrendering without the bombs.
Why would they be willing to surrender? They believed similarly to Hitler that the Japanese were the master Asian Race. They wanted to kill all Thai's, Chinese, Vietamese etc. They were still using Kamikaze attacks on us. So if the soldiers were so willing to die for the cause why would they surrender when we invaded.
Also if we dropped the bomb on a more strategic military sight it would have been closer to Tokyo and many more people would have died.
Like I said in an earlier post no one really new the effect on our soul caused by dropping the bomb and that is why we haven't dropped one since. But at the time I can see where we felt like we had no other option.
It just makes me sick that so many people want to make the Japanese the innocent victims in all of this. They were the ones that caused our involvement in the war. They were the ones slaughtering innocent Vietnamese and Chinese. They have no one to blame but themselves. In fact you hardly hear any blame from Japan towards us for dropping the bomb. That should tell you all you need to know.
10/31/2000 (****)
6/7/2003 (***1/2)
7/9/2006 (****1/2)
7/13/2006 (**** )
4/10/2008 EV Solo (****1/2)
6/25/2008 MSG II (*****)
10/1/2009 LA II (****)
10/6/2009 LA III (***** Cornell!!!)
You do realize that the Japanese killed between 20-30 million innocent civilians of their own in the Asian Holocaust.
If anything the atomic bombs have made the world forget about many of the atrocities that the Japanese committed in WWII: the rape of Nanking, the Manilla Massacre, the Bataan Death March, the refusal to adhere to the Geneva Convention, the fact that almost 1 in 3 POWs captured by the Japanese died, the medical experimentation performed in their death camps, the forced prostitution of citizens of captured cities, testing cyanide gas on POWs.
War is hell, but I personally think marching between 3 and 4 hundred thousand civilians and soldiers onto a beach and other execution sites and tying them up and then shooting them one by one like the Japanese did at Nanking is much worse than dropping the atomic bomb.
Wow. Seems I have some research to do, thanks.
It's a town full of losers and I'm pulling out of here to win
It just makes me sick that so many people want to make the Japanese the innocent victims in all of this. They were the ones that caused our involvement in the war. They were the ones slaughtering innocent Vietnamese and Chinese. They have no one to blame but themselves. In fact you hardly hear any blame from Japan towards us for dropping the bomb. That should tell you all you need to know.
I don't think anyone in this thread was making the japanese innoncent victims. The argument here is that when in war with another country you do not make civilians pay for the war. Most civilians do not want war and do not wage war, that's why they are called civilians. Also, the argument "what they did was worse" sucks because morally the good guys are supposed to be better than the bad guys.
Also, how can you believe bombing two cities was less worse than bombing a military base next to a city? Honestly? In 1945 these people already knew that these bombs would have long term effects. Considering 1945 civilians as guilty of their governments action and punishing them is already a stretch but punishing their children?
Finally the argument "they wouldn't have surrendered" is without end because depending on your sources this is not as clear as you make it out to be.
You do realize that the Japanese killed between 20-30 million innocent civilians of their own in the Asian Holocaust.
You do realize that's complete bullshit.
The real number is estimated between 3-10 million... NOT 20-30 million... not that I'm justifying it, but it's a big difference.
I can't believe some of the things I read on here though. The fact that people think all those hundreds of thousands of civilians dying were just collateral damage... what the fuck.... I bet had another country done that to the war-mongering United States right now, and your family was one of those bodies... well, you wouldn't be fucking thinking that same thing.
It was definitely not a "necessary" evil. After Germany lost, Japan was pretty much done, considering they were facing so many nations. The US just happened to move to drastic measures just to... according to history books... "end the battle for sure and make sure no more innocents were lost by the big bad Japanese empire (of course innocents lost by the good ole US were ok of course ...)"
give me a fucking break.
Also, just to clear this up... people seem to ALLLWAYS think had the US not interfered and saved the day, then the Nazis would have won and made everyone in the world a slave. That's completely UNTRUE. THE SOVIETS WOULD HAVE WON THE WAR ANYWAY. THEY WON THE WAR. WE JUST HAPPENED TO BRING A QUICKER END TO IT. NO MORE.
I feel like I've had to explain that to people about 467 million times.
Anyway to conclude my point, no, the killings were never and are still not justified no matter how many idiots try to do so. It's like that question in the Presidential debate last year...
"Would you all kill Osama Bin Laden at the risk of killing another innocent person?" (or something close to that). All the presidential candidates (dems) said yes, save for Kucinich. Then they all tried to change their answers and say "it depends on the situation...."
Why would they be willing to surrender? They believed similarly to Hitler that the Japanese were the master Asian Race. They wanted to kill all Thai's, Chinese, Vietamese etc. They were still using Kamikaze attacks on us. So if the soldiers were so willing to die for the cause why would they surrender when we invaded.
Also if we dropped the bomb on a more strategic military sight it would have been closer to Tokyo and many more people would have died.
Like I said in an earlier post no one really new the effect on our soul caused by dropping the bomb and that is why we haven't dropped one since. But at the time I can see where we felt like we had no other option.
It just makes me sick that so many people want to make the Japanese the innocent victims in all of this. They were the ones that caused our involvement in the war. They were the ones slaughtering innocent Vietnamese and Chinese. They have no one to blame but themselves. In fact you hardly hear any blame from Japan towards us for dropping the bomb. That should tell you all you need to know.
Seriously, I agree with you. No one knew...and I mean no one...what long term effects that the bombs would produce. Yes, there was speculation....but that's all that it was. The bombs were used in the same year that they were first created....that's why they did all those tests in the 1950's....years after WWII ended...no knew for sure what the long term held. They just knew that they blew up shit real good.
All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a thousand enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with the swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.
I don't think anyone in this thread was making the japanese innoncent victims. The argument here is that when in war with another country you do not make civilians pay for the war. Most civilians do not want war and do not wage war, that's why they are called civilians. Also, the argument "what they did was worse" sucks because morally the good guys are supposed to be better than the bad guys.
Also, how can you believe bombing two cities was less worse than bombing a military base next to a city? Honestly? In 1945 these people already knew that these bombs would have long term effects. Considering 1945 civilians as guilty of their governments action and punishing them is already a stretch but punishing their children?
Finally the argument "they wouldn't have surrendered" is without end because depending on your sources this is not as clear as you make it out to be.
I have never heard that the Japanese were close to surrendering. Today on this thread is the first time I ever heard of that. I would like proof that they were ready to surrender because its news to me.
It could be American propaganda but I have always been under the impression that the bomb was dropped to quickly end what was becoming a long and drawn out war that originally we wanted no part of until we were brutally attacked on our soil.
Also if you drop a bomb on a military target next to a city the Bomb will still destroy the city next to it. I don't have the facts in front of me but doesn't the bomb destroy a 12 mile radius and the damage stretches out as far as 200 miles or so.
I can't believe I got roped into defending the US dropping the bomb because I don't support its future use and I wish it was never invented, but I have to go back to the fact that Japan dragged us into something that we didn't want to be apart of. We could have lost 100,000 of young men who volenteered after Pearl Harbor on an invasion of Japan. Sure we probably would have won, but no one knows how many innocent civilians would have died if we invaded anyways.
If it was just to show Russia what was up then I have a huge problem with it but I don't buy that. It was Truman not Bush who was president.
10/31/2000 (****)
6/7/2003 (***1/2)
7/9/2006 (****1/2)
7/13/2006 (**** )
4/10/2008 EV Solo (****1/2)
6/25/2008 MSG II (*****)
10/1/2009 LA II (****)
10/6/2009 LA III (***** Cornell!!!)
The real number is estimated between 3-10 million... NOT 20-30 million... not that I'm justifying it, but it's a big difference.
I can't believe some of the things I read on here though. The fact that people think all those hundreds of thousands of civilians dying were just collateral damage... what the fuck.... I bet had another country done that to the war-mongering United States right now, and your family was one of those bodies... well, you wouldn't be fucking thinking that same thing.
It was definitely not a "necessary" evil. After Germany lost, Japan was pretty much done, considering they were facing so many nations. The US just happened to move to drastic measures just to... according to history books... "end the battle for sure and make sure no more innocents were lost by the big bad Japanese empire (of course innocents lost by the good ole US were ok of course ...)"
give me a fucking break.
Also, just to clear this up... people seem to ALLLWAYS think had the US not interfered and saved the day, then the Nazis would have won and made everyone in the world a slave. That's completely UNTRUE. THE SOVIETS WOULD HAVE WON THE WAR ANYWAY. THEY WON THE WAR. WE JUST HAPPENED TO BRING A QUICKER END TO IT. NO MORE.
I feel like I've had to explain that to people about 467 million times.
Anyway to conclude my point, no, the killings were never and are still not justified no matter how many idiots try to do so. It's like that question in the Presidential debate last year...
"Would you all kill Osama Bin Laden at the risk of killing another innocent person?" (or something close to that). All the presidential candidates (dems) said yes, save for Kucinich. Then they all tried to change their answers and say "it depends on the situation...."
give me a fucking break.
This post should have an * for Anti American Propaganda. If my Grandpa who fought in WWII was still alive he'd smack me upside my head just for reading your bullshit.
Also you felt the need to point out that the Japanese ONLY killed 3 to 10 million innocent people not 20 to 30 million. That's a horrible argument because even 1 million innocent people is a lot let alone up to 10 million. Thats the same number of Jewish people that died in the holocaust.
10/31/2000 (****)
6/7/2003 (***1/2)
7/9/2006 (****1/2)
7/13/2006 (**** )
4/10/2008 EV Solo (****1/2)
6/25/2008 MSG II (*****)
10/1/2009 LA II (****)
10/6/2009 LA III (***** Cornell!!!)
I have never heard that the Japanese were close to surrendering. Today on this thread is the first time I ever heard of that. I would like proof that they were ready to surrender because its news to me.
How about proof that they weren't close to surrendering?
Also, I understand the whole "we never knew the damage it was capable of" thing... but then why drop another bomb 2 days after the first?
Also if you drop a bomb on a military target next to a city the Bomb will still destroy the city next to it. I don't have the facts in front of me but doesn't the bomb destroy a 12 mile radius and the damage stretches out as far as 200 miles or so.
Whoa, whoa, whoa... I thought they didn't exactly know about the effects it can do... now they do know?
I can't believe I got roped into defending the US dropping the bomb because I don't support its future use and I wish it was never invented, but I have to go back to the fact that Japan dragged us into something that we didn't want to be apart of. We could have lost 100,000 of young men who volenteered after Pearl Harbor on an invasion of Japan. Sure we probably would have won, but no one knows how many innocent civilians would have died if we invaded anyways.
You were never roped into doing anything. You volunteered to defend them doing it. Also, if the US never wanted to be apart of the war, then why did they sell ammunition to the British/Allies? It makes them look one-sided, really. Not that I'm justifying Pearl Harbor, but you can't really compare Pearl Harbor to these bombings... one is off the scales...
If it was just to show Russia what was up then I have a huge problem with it but I don't buy that. It was Truman not Bush who was president.
This post should have an * for Anti American Propaganda. If my Grandpa who fought in WWII was still alive he'd smack me upside my head just for reading your bullshit.
Also you felt the need to point out that the Japanese ONLY killed 3 to 10 million innocent people not 20 to 30 million. That's a horrible argument because even 1 million innocent people is a lot let alone up to 10 million. Thats the same number of Jewish people that died in the holocaust.
Where did I ever say "only"? Did you just throw that in to make yourself feel better? Did you happen to skip over where I said:
The real number is estimated between 3-10 million... NOT 20-30 million... not that I'm justifying it, but it's a big difference.
Do you see it now? Or are you still too blind to understand what my point was?
Where did I ever say "only"? Did you just throw that in to make yourself feel better? Did you happen to skip over where I said:
Do you see it now? Or are you still too blind to understand what my point was?
No I'm not blind. I think its a ridiculous and poor argument to say that 3 to 10 million is a big difference to 20 and 30 million. It's not that big of a difference when you are talking about a slaughter of innocent Asians.
So no I don't see your point because I don't think you have a valid one.
10/31/2000 (****)
6/7/2003 (***1/2)
7/9/2006 (****1/2)
7/13/2006 (**** )
4/10/2008 EV Solo (****1/2)
6/25/2008 MSG II (*****)
10/1/2009 LA II (****)
10/6/2009 LA III (***** Cornell!!!)
Comments
yeah, far be it from me to state facts to get in the way of your anti-America rhetoric. but the fact remains, you attack somebody without provocation, you don't get to dictate what kind of response you should get. like I said, the bombings were overkill. but Japan committed the first atrocity, not the US.
and what's more, the bombs were going to be dropped on someone at some point. if nothing more so there would be no non-believers on the power of this technology. not saying they SHOULD have been, but they WOULD have been. once they were created, that end was unavoidable. so would you have rather the US dropped the bomb on 275,000 innocent Russians? 275,000 Germans? or maybe Russia dropping it on 275,000 Americans (this is my bet on how you really feel)? or maybe on 275,000 Chinese or Vietnamese? the fact is, once it was created, it was going to be used for everybody to see. Japan was the target. they (their government) committed an atrocity against not only the US, but against innocent people of other nations. it's a sad chapter of history, no doubt, but the blame is missplaced.
no, maybe not. I already know your line of thinking and can sum it up in 3 words.....everything's America's fault. it's not a new concept on this board. Thanks.
It's easy to sit back in 2008 and gnash one's teeth while criticizing the people who kept the world (relatively) free. It's also easy to sit in the comfort of one's home and bemoan the fact that America is such a bad place filled with bad people who do bad things.
I think people are forgetting just how crazy and fucked up the Japanese were. They were the bad guys in the war, not us. If we didn't stop them they would have exterminated all non-Japanese.
Don't waste your guilt on what happened in Japan. They got what they deserved.
And yes, I understand that children and innocents perished in the attacks, but I don't care. If it came down to a five-year-old girl or my grandfather, well, I don't guess I need to tell you which person I would pick and I'm pretty sure it works out that way on the other side, too.
Tell ya what: If you think it's so indefensible that we dropped nukes on the Japanese, go down to a VFW and talk to a Pacific Theater of Operations veteran and ask them about undeserving of the bomb Japan was. I've got a feeling they might disagree with your armchair quarterbacking after the fact.
You should be kissing the asses of the men who made what had to have been the toughest decision of their lives. Without their cowardly act, you'd probably not exist and the world would be one giant slave state.
It's fucking war. It isn't suppose to be appealing. Was it sad and a 'travesty'? Sad, yes. A travesty? No. Bad parties are a 'travesty'. Nuking two cites? That is 'fucked'? But guess what? That is what the situation was at the time. You want to see something really fucked up? Google 'Dresden bombing'.
Admiral William Leary, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, called the atomic bomb, "a barbarous weapon", also saying, "the Japanese were already defeated and willing to surrender".
Terms of surrender had been offered, diplomatic channels were being pursued, the war was over. So the US was not so much ending the world war as they were starting the cold war, using a terrible weapon on hundreds of thousands of human beings.
We are all everly thankful to the us and the proud americans for saving the world's ass in 1945. But the necessity of using bombs whose effects are still felt 60 years later is questionnable. They probably could have gotten the same effect with time and regular warfare. The bombs seemed mostly like a mix of payback and show-off on the american part, and the results are condemnable, whatever your patriotic feelings.
Btw, questionning the acts of your historical leader does not mean you wish 275,000 of your fellow citizens were dead.
Brilliant logic. How about instead of locking up killers we kill them? And their families, their children, their brothers and sisters. We go to the neighbours and we shoot a few people as well.
A killer doesn't get to dictate what kind of response he should get.
naděje umírá poslední
It sickens me that you don't even care. It's one thing to say it was something that had to be done (there's no way any of us can know what would've happened if they hadn't dropped the bombs) but it's another thing to say innocent people deserved to die, and to say you don't even care. It's disgusting.
naděje umírá poslední
how about we rise above the level of our enemy? if we attack in the same manner as our attacker then we are no better than they.
don't for a minute think that i am an apologist for the japanese during WW2. im just tired of all the bullshit and chestthumping that says they started it so we will finish it with overwhelming and unimaginable horror. and what we visit upon them will be thoroughly deserved.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
I agree with this... how you can say you don't care about that many civilians dying based on a completely theoretical (and arguably inaccurate) outcome if we didn't drop the bomb is beyond me.
You do realize that the Japanese killed between 20-30 million innocent civilians of their own in the Asian Holocaust.
If anything the atomic bombs have made the world forget about many of the atrocities that the Japanese committed in WWII: the rape of Nanking, the Manilla Massacre, the Bataan Death March, the refusal to adhere to the Geneva Convention, the fact that almost 1 in 3 POWs captured by the Japanese died, the medical experimentation performed in their death camps, the forced prostitution of citizens of captured cities, testing cyanide gas on POWs.
War is hell, but I personally think marching between 3 and 4 hundred thousand civilians and soldiers onto a beach and other execution sites and tying them up and then shooting them one by one like the Japanese did at Nanking is much worse than dropping the atomic bomb.
- 8/28/98
- 9/2/00
- 4/28/03, 5/3/03, 7/3/03, 7/5/03, 7/6/03, 7/9/03, 7/11/03, 7/12/03, 7/14/03
- 9/28/04, 9/29/04, 10/1/04, 10/2/04
- 9/11/05, 9/12/05, 9/13/05, 9/30/05, 10/1/05, 10/3/05
- 5/12/06, 5/13/06, 5/27/06, 5/28/06, 5/30/06, 6/1/06, 6/3/06, 6/23/06, 7/22/06, 7/23/06, 12/2/06, 12/9/06
- 8/2/07, 8/5/07
- 6/19/08, 6/20/08, 6/22/08, 6/24/08, 6/25/08, 6/27/08, 6/28/08, 6/30/08, 7/1/08
- 8/23/09, 8/24/09, 9/21/09, 9/22/09, 10/27/09, 10/28/09, 10/30/09, 10/31/09
- 5/15/10, 5/17/10, 5/18/10, 5/20/10, 5/21/10, 10/23/10, 10/24/10
- 9/11/11, 9/12/11
- 10/18/13, 10/21/13, 10/22/13, 11/30/13, 12/4/13
If you're going to quote me, quote the entire thought.
I said I don't care because it came down to a choice: Nuke the Japanese or lose hundreds of thousands of troops in a full-scale invasion. Apparently you don't get that the Japanese were not going to surrender if we stepped foot on their islands. They were going to fight to the death.
Also, I guess you would have rather me make the argument that the bombings were "something that had to be done (there's no way any of us can know what would've happened if they hadn't dropped the bombs)" so you could play the "but we didn't know if there was another way" card.
Well, sorry to disappoint you, but making that argument is some 21st century bullshit.
The people who were pulling the strings in Japan were sick fucks who believed they were the master race and destined to rule the world. Their people bought into it when things were going well, but once they started to get their asses kicked we should forget all the horrible war crimes their armies committed? Nope, not going to happen.
Dropping those bombs did a couple of things: First, it defeated the Japanese both physically and mentally (and mentally was the most important part); second, it let the world know that we had a weapon that would totally flatten them if they tried to extend the war in some sort of mad land grab.
War is disgusting and evil. Innocent people die. Horrible decisions must be made.
Looking back on it and criticizing the U.S. for wanting to stop the worst war the world had ever seen by dropping bombs on cities that were factory towns for the Japanese war machine is a pathetic attempt at saying you -- a person who benefitted from the bombs -- are above those folks. You're smarter and more compassionate. You are more human.
ONly problem is, you're discounting the experiences of those people. You're trying to take your sensibilities as a 21st century who has never experienced those horrors and ascribe them to the people who were involved. History, at least non-revisionist history, doesn't work that way.
If taking into account the concerns of WWII leaders makes me disgusting, it's a label I wear proudly.
we should have dropped a couple more bombs on Japan.....
Till there aint nothing left worth taking away from me.....
Why would they be willing to surrender? They believed similarly to Hitler that the Japanese were the master Asian Race. They wanted to kill all Thai's, Chinese, Vietamese etc. They were still using Kamikaze attacks on us. So if the soldiers were so willing to die for the cause why would they surrender when we invaded.
Also if we dropped the bomb on a more strategic military sight it would have been closer to Tokyo and many more people would have died.
Like I said in an earlier post no one really new the effect on our soul caused by dropping the bomb and that is why we haven't dropped one since. But at the time I can see where we felt like we had no other option.
It just makes me sick that so many people want to make the Japanese the innocent victims in all of this. They were the ones that caused our involvement in the war. They were the ones slaughtering innocent Vietnamese and Chinese. They have no one to blame but themselves. In fact you hardly hear any blame from Japan towards us for dropping the bomb. That should tell you all you need to know.
6/7/2003 (***1/2)
7/9/2006 (****1/2)
7/13/2006 (**** )
4/10/2008 EV Solo (****1/2)
6/25/2008 MSG II (*****)
10/1/2009 LA II (****)
10/6/2009 LA III (***** Cornell!!!)
Wow. Seems I have some research to do, thanks.
I don't think anyone in this thread was making the japanese innoncent victims. The argument here is that when in war with another country you do not make civilians pay for the war. Most civilians do not want war and do not wage war, that's why they are called civilians. Also, the argument "what they did was worse" sucks because morally the good guys are supposed to be better than the bad guys.
Also, how can you believe bombing two cities was less worse than bombing a military base next to a city? Honestly? In 1945 these people already knew that these bombs would have long term effects. Considering 1945 civilians as guilty of their governments action and punishing them is already a stretch but punishing their children?
Finally the argument "they wouldn't have surrendered" is without end because depending on your sources this is not as clear as you make it out to be.
The real number is estimated between 3-10 million... NOT 20-30 million... not that I'm justifying it, but it's a big difference.
I can't believe some of the things I read on here though. The fact that people think all those hundreds of thousands of civilians dying were just collateral damage... what the fuck.... I bet had another country done that to the war-mongering United States right now, and your family was one of those bodies... well, you wouldn't be fucking thinking that same thing.
It was definitely not a "necessary" evil. After Germany lost, Japan was pretty much done, considering they were facing so many nations. The US just happened to move to drastic measures just to... according to history books... "end the battle for sure and make sure no more innocents were lost by the big bad Japanese empire (of course innocents lost by the good ole US were ok of course
give me a fucking break.
Also, just to clear this up... people seem to ALLLWAYS think had the US not interfered and saved the day, then the Nazis would have won and made everyone in the world a slave. That's completely UNTRUE. THE SOVIETS WOULD HAVE WON THE WAR ANYWAY. THEY WON THE WAR. WE JUST HAPPENED TO BRING A QUICKER END TO IT. NO MORE.
I feel like I've had to explain that to people about 467 million times.
Anyway to conclude my point, no, the killings were never and are still not justified no matter how many idiots try to do so. It's like that question in the Presidential debate last year...
"Would you all kill Osama Bin Laden at the risk of killing another innocent person?" (or something close to that). All the presidential candidates (dems) said yes, save for Kucinich. Then they all tried to change their answers and say "it depends on the situation...."
give me a fucking break.
I have never heard that the Japanese were close to surrendering. Today on this thread is the first time I ever heard of that. I would like proof that they were ready to surrender because its news to me.
It could be American propaganda but I have always been under the impression that the bomb was dropped to quickly end what was becoming a long and drawn out war that originally we wanted no part of until we were brutally attacked on our soil.
Also if you drop a bomb on a military target next to a city the Bomb will still destroy the city next to it. I don't have the facts in front of me but doesn't the bomb destroy a 12 mile radius and the damage stretches out as far as 200 miles or so.
I can't believe I got roped into defending the US dropping the bomb because I don't support its future use and I wish it was never invented, but I have to go back to the fact that Japan dragged us into something that we didn't want to be apart of. We could have lost 100,000 of young men who volenteered after Pearl Harbor on an invasion of Japan. Sure we probably would have won, but no one knows how many innocent civilians would have died if we invaded anyways.
If it was just to show Russia what was up then I have a huge problem with it but I don't buy that. It was Truman not Bush who was president.
6/7/2003 (***1/2)
7/9/2006 (****1/2)
7/13/2006 (**** )
4/10/2008 EV Solo (****1/2)
6/25/2008 MSG II (*****)
10/1/2009 LA II (****)
10/6/2009 LA III (***** Cornell!!!)
This post should have an * for Anti American Propaganda. If my Grandpa who fought in WWII was still alive he'd smack me upside my head just for reading your bullshit.
Also you felt the need to point out that the Japanese ONLY killed 3 to 10 million innocent people not 20 to 30 million. That's a horrible argument because even 1 million innocent people is a lot let alone up to 10 million. Thats the same number of Jewish people that died in the holocaust.
6/7/2003 (***1/2)
7/9/2006 (****1/2)
7/13/2006 (**** )
4/10/2008 EV Solo (****1/2)
6/25/2008 MSG II (*****)
10/1/2009 LA II (****)
10/6/2009 LA III (***** Cornell!!!)
Also, I understand the whole "we never knew the damage it was capable of" thing... but then why drop another bomb 2 days after the first?
Whoa, whoa, whoa... I thought they didn't exactly know about the effects it can do... now they do know?
You were never roped into doing anything. You volunteered to defend them doing it. Also, if the US never wanted to be apart of the war, then why did they sell ammunition to the British/Allies? It makes them look one-sided, really. Not that I'm justifying Pearl Harbor, but you can't really compare Pearl Harbor to these bombings... one is off the scales...
And...? Truman was a good president or something?
Where did I ever say "only"? Did you just throw that in to make yourself feel better? Did you happen to skip over where I said:
Do you see it now? Or are you still too blind to understand what my point was?
No I'm not blind. I think its a ridiculous and poor argument to say that 3 to 10 million is a big difference to 20 and 30 million. It's not that big of a difference when you are talking about a slaughter of innocent Asians.
So no I don't see your point because I don't think you have a valid one.
6/7/2003 (***1/2)
7/9/2006 (****1/2)
7/13/2006 (**** )
4/10/2008 EV Solo (****1/2)
6/25/2008 MSG II (*****)
10/1/2009 LA II (****)
10/6/2009 LA III (***** Cornell!!!)