But - ...Israel really really really, really really sucks.
Not Jews! Jews don't suck! - Israel, the government, the IDF, the criminals - they suck. I want to make it clear, I do disagree with both Hezbollah and Israel's actions - they're both masters of war in their own way...
My overly simplified take on it is this. Any nation has a right to defend themselves when another nation, or group, is constantly launching missles at that nation. The difference in this situation, is that Israel is trying to defend themselves from a terrorist group in another country, instead of that country, which makes it difficult to fight. I do think Israel has gone a overboard, because their reaction is more or less destroying the infrastructure of the entire nation, and has actually garnered more support for Hezbollah. I wish that Israel would take a step back, and figure out a way to destroy Hezbollah, while at the same time causing little destruction and death to Lebanon. Thats obviously difficult to do since Hezbollah operates within a lot Lebanon, but at the same time it isnt fair to the Lebonese who arent associated with Hezbollah to face the Israeli wrath. On the other side, its not fair for Israeli's to have to deal with Hezbollah's missles either.
My overly simplified take on it is this. Any nation has a right to defend themselves when another nation, or group, is constantly launching missles at that nation. The difference in this situation, is that Israel is trying to defend themselves from a terrorist group in another country, instead of that country, which makes it difficult to fight. I do think Israel has gone a overboard, because their reaction is more or less destroying the infrastructure of the entire nation, and has actually garnered more support for Hezbollah. I wish that Israel would take a step back, and figure out a way to destroy Hezbollah, while at the same time causing little destruction and death to Lebanon. Thats obviously difficult to do since Hezbollah operates within a lot Lebanon, but at the same time it isnt fair to the Lebonese who arent associated with Hezbollah to face the Israeli wrath. On the other side, its not fair for Israeli's to have to deal with Hezbollah's missles either.
What would you say, if you knew Israel is providing the provocation?
...
What I'm saying, is that when I look at the whole history of this conflict, it seems Israel started it, they've provoked Hezbollah - and thus Hezbollah are the defenders, Israel are the attackers - this is there mainstream media is sure to disagree...
What would you say, if you knew Israel is providing the provocation?
...
What I'm saying, is that when I look at the whole history of this conflict, it seems Israel started it, they've provoked Hezbollah - and thus Hezbollah are the defenders, Israel are the attackers - this is there mainstream media is sure to disagree...
I understand that Israel's hands arent clean by any means. But Hezbollah is a terrorist group that was and is operating right across the Israel northern border, and was using that station to lob missles into Israel. You cant blame anyone for defending themselves. You can disagree with the method in which they go about defending themselves, which I do in this situation, but you cant expect Israel to just sit there while Hezbollah is pelting them with missles. There are innocent people on both sides of this conflict, and I think a governments top responsibility is protecting its people, so I dont blame Israel for defending themselves a bit, but, like I said, I do think they could do it in a more responsible manner that puts fewer Lebanese civilians at risk. But it by no means an easy situation.
I understand that Israel's hands arent clean by any means. But Hezbollah is a terrorist group that was and is operating right across the Israel northern border, and was using that station to lob missles into Israel. You cant blame anyone for defending themselves. You can disagree with the method in which they go about defending themselves, which I do in this situation, but you cant expect Israel to just sit there while Hezbollah is pelting them with missles. There are innocent people on both sides of this conflict, and I think a governments top responsibility is protecting its people, so I dont blame Israel for defending themselves a bit, but, like I said, I do think they could do it in a more responsible manner that puts fewer Lebanese civilians at risk. But it by no means an easy situation.
Wow. Just when I think the loony left can't get any worse...
Do you live in the terrorists' minds? How can you possibly say that "they are fighting for their security and freedom from oppression?" You say this as if there aren't a good deal of terrorists whose only goal is the destruction of Israel because it is Jewish - this is the case with Hezbollah and Hamas, for example. But you'll choose to ignore it. Start living in reality.
Dude, Hezbollah wants Israel to leave them the fuck alone. They want the goddamn Israelis to stop occupying their country. Isn't that why Hezbollah even exists?
Do you then think it should be, "Iran/Hezbollah and America/Israel..."?
Would that be fair?
you need education...
...to learn both sides of the same story - to gain objectivity, and hopefully a better understanding of this conflict and praise be, a sense of compassion for both sides.
Objectivity is the word...if people were capable of that one word, it would be a different world. Do people ever stop and wonder why they hate us? Oh yeah i forgot, it's for our freedom..lol
How is Hizbollah or Iran oppressed? Hizbollah has a political wing that operates in the Lebanese govt. and the terrorists faction more or less acts on their accord because they are militarily stronger than the Lebanese army. The people of Iran may be oppressed, but it would be their own government oppressing them, not Israel.
"First of all - this needs to be said, there never was a war."
"How can you say that Bill?"
(Bill Hicks, one heckuva comedian)
"Well, a war is when two armies are fighting."
*pause, for laughter*
"So you see, right there... we can all agree that, it wasn't exactly a war."
When it's one army against a militia... I don't know - I hafta agree with Bill on this one, it's not a war, it's a slaughter.
The U.S. Army vs. ...the "towelheads/ragheads" as my buddies in high school would say, "I can't wait to go straight to Iraq to kill some ragheads!"
The IDF vs. ...the Lebanese resistance...
Surely you can see how the rest of the civilized world might think of western civilization as a little less civilized than we doublethink ourselves to be.
We're the brutes.
We're the bullies.
We need comedians, our jesters to tell us what we're doing wrong, and then we laugh and pat our children on the head and forget all about it...
fuck...
"Iraq 150,000 casualties...
USA...
...79. haha!"
We don'er good daint we? Pa, huh? Ma - huh? ...yup we done 'er good...
(The id in me is feeling particularly bitter and resentful right now)
How is Hizbollah or Iran oppressed? Hizbollah has a political wing that operates in the Lebanese govt. and the terrorists faction more or less acts on their accord because they are militarily stronger than the Lebanese army. The people of Iran may be oppressed, but it would be their own government oppressing them, not Israel.
Speaking of Israel oppressing people, well, they do oppress their own citizens, they seem to also be quite keen on oppressing their own soldiers:
You probably won't ever see Hezbollah jail one of their own soldiers, a largely voluntary force. Do Hezbollah even have jails? I'm not saying they're any more civilized, but I am saying Israel is NO MORE civilized...
Wow. Just when I think the loony left can't get any worse...
Do you live in the terrorists' minds? How can you possibly say that "they are fighting for their security and freedom from oppression?" You say this as if there aren't a good deal of terrorists whose only goal is the destruction of Israel because it is Jewish - this is the case with Hezbollah and Hamas, for example. But you'll choose to ignore it. Start living in reality.
No, I say this as if there are a good deal of terrorists whose goal is the destruction of Israel because it is Zionist, and expansionist, and continues to carry out an illegal military occupation. The majority of these terrorist groups you are referring to demand that Israel return to the pre 1967 borders. I.e, they demand that Israel abide by international law. But then, these things don't count in your scheme of things because you have a purely one-eyed view of the world. You'd make a great politician - the ability to block out facts which are troublesome to your view of the world, and the ability to convince yourself that you're right even when you know you are wrong.
Wow. Just when I think the loony left can't get any worse...
Do you live in the terrorists' minds? How can you possibly say that "they are fighting for their security and freedom from oppression?" You say this as if there aren't a good deal of terrorists whose only goal is the destruction of Israel because it is Jewish - this is the case with Hezbollah and Hamas, for example. But you'll choose to ignore it. Start living in reality.
Personally, as somebody who has left leaning political views and ideals, i find this post grossly insulting.
Are there any mods on today? Do they even watch out for breaches of the Message Pit sign up agreement ?
The world's greatest empires progress through this sequence:From bondage to spiritual faith; spiritual faith to great courage; courage to liberty;liberty to abundance;abundance to selfishness; selfishness to complacency;complacency to apathy;apathy to dependence;dependency back again into bondage
Yeah - hold on, let's not censor "jsand" just because we disagree.
If there were no argument, then there wouldn't be a proper forum for voices to be heard and for ideas/opinions to be formulated in response to possible opposition/contradictory veiws/statements...
*looks back at what I just typed*
Yeah, too much coffee, and it's not wearing off...
"And if I had a clue I'd know exactly
What to do
If I were the wiser of the two
And if I saw it all so clear
I'd write it down and bend your ear
If I were the clearer of the two
We could take a walk into the
Canyons of 5th avenue
Sing and dance... just to name a few
All I do
All I do
And if I heard the angels sing I'd
Sing it back to you and bring the
Sound of heaven ringing just for you
And if I saw the sun fall down
I'd pick it up and make a crown
One that was a perfect fit for you
We could take a walk
Into the apple orchard by the school
We could make a little residue
We could find a place to stay
A secret little hide away
Spend a little time inside of you
All I do
All I do
All eyes
All eyes
All eyes on you
All I do
All I do
All I do
All I do"
RHCP - Stadium Arcadium - great midnight/early morning companion.
Yeah - hold on, let's not censor "jsand" just because we disagree.
If there were no argument, then there wouldn't be a proper forum for voices to be heard and for ideas/opinions to be formulated in response to possible opposition/contradictory veiws/statements...
*looks back at what I just typed*
Yeah, too much coffee, and it's not wearing off...
"And if I had a clue I'd know exactly
What to do
If I were the wiser of the two
And if I saw it all so clear
I'd write it down and bend your ear
If I were the clearer of the two
We could take a walk into the
Canyons of 5th avenue
Sing and dance... just to name a few
All I do
All I do
And if I heard the angels sing I'd
Sing it back to you and bring the
Sound of heaven ringing just for you
And if I saw the sun fall down
I'd pick it up and make a crown
One that was a perfect fit for you
We could take a walk
Into the apple orchard by the school
We could make a little residue
We could find a place to stay
A secret little hide away
Spend a little time inside of you
All I do
All I do
All eyes
All eyes
All eyes on you
All I do
All I do
All I do
All I do"
RHCP - Stadium Arcadium - great midnight/early morning companion.
So your in favour of a middle east sing song then?
You probably won't ever see Hezbollah jail one of their own soldiers, a largely voluntary force. Do Hezbollah even have jails? I'm not saying they're any more civilized, but I am saying Israel is NO MORE civilized...
For some reason you keep acting as I am an Israeli apologist, when I have consistently said I dont agree with their methods of defense in this situation, and consistently acknowledged that they certainly have had blood on their hands in many situations over the years. I do agree with anyone having the right to defend themselves, but I dont agree with the manner Israel is doing that. It is possible to think both sides are wrong ya know. Of course I dont agree with what your article is saying, but that doesnt change my point about any of this a bit.
For some reason you keep acting as I am an Israeli apologist, when I have consistently said I dont agree with their methods of defense in this situation, and consistently acknowledged that they certainly have had blood on their hands in many situations over the years. I do agree with anyone having the right to defend themselves, but I dont agree with the manner Israel is doing that. It is possible to think both sides are wrong ya know. Of course I dont agree with what your article is saying, but that doesnt change my point about any of this a bit.
As Chomsky has said: "Israel certainly has a right to defend itself, but no state has the right to "defend" occupied territories."
For some reason you keep acting as I am an Israeli apologist, when I have consistently said I dont agree with their methods of defense in this situation, and consistently acknowledged that they certainly have had blood on their hands in many situations over the years. I do agree with anyone having the right to defend themselves, but I dont agree with the manner Israel is doing that. It is possible to think both sides are wrong ya know. Of course I dont agree with what your article is saying, but that doesnt change my point about any of this a bit.
Wait, wait, wait - initially your response utterly confused me - I really try, in every possible way, never to compel or corrode either personal bias or persons in particular.
I think I see what the matter is.
I keep using "you," in the third person, referring to a broad general audience - and not, "you," referring to the person/poster I'm responding to!
Sorry for the confusion, but I wasn't referring to, "you."
Wait, wait, wait - initially your response utterly confused me - I really try, in every possible way, never to compel or corrode either personal bias or persons in particular.
I think I see what the matter is.
I keep using "you," in the third person, referring to a broad general audience - and not, "you," referring to the person/poster I'm responding to!
Sorry for the confusion, but I wasn't referring to, "you."
Oh, boy...
I blame the Starbucks corporation.
No problem, message boards can get confusing at times.
So they should just let the missles pelt them on a daily basis with no response?
As I've said before - non-violence is just as just a response.
In fact, it should be whole heartedly considered, with great weight! Because I think, if non-violence is pursued by one side, the other will be compelled by nothing short of a universally harmonic human condition to follow.
If one gorup does defy an act of non-violence, like Hitler might... most definitly would have - THEN, IS THE ONLY TIME FOR FORCE.
Hezbollah just want their land back, it's not too hard to see that. That is at least one of their conditions and probably a great majority of their motive. Israeli's, Lebanese - they all pray for peace.
I saw that video last night. I think it's good to try and put the story in perspective, but saying "Hezbollah is not a terrorist organization" is going too far. Hezbollah, just like Israeli leadership, advocates and carries out terrorism. This propaganda war going on is a war nobody benefits from. The truth should be good enough.
As I've said before - non-violence is just as just a response.
In fact, it should be whole heartedly considered, with great weight! Because I think, if non-violence is pursued by one side, the other will be compelled by nothing short of a universally harmonic human condition to follow.
If one gorup does defy an act of non-violence, like Hitler might... most definitly would have - THEN, IS THE ONLY TIME FOR FORCE.
Hezbollah just want their land back, it's not too hard to see that. That is at least one of their conditions and probably a great majority of their motive. Israeli's, Lebanese - they all pray for peace.
Hezbollah has no land, and has never had land. Hezbollah is a organization created in the 80s. If we were talking about Palestine, and not Hezbollah, I would be much quicker to agree with you. But we are talking about a 20 year old terrorist organization that has never been a country or legit government, and has never possessed land, they simply operate out of another countrys land, which obviously in this case would be Lebanon.
Hezbollah has no land, and has never had land. Hezbollah is a organization created in the 80s. If we were talking about Palestine, and not Hezbollah, I would be much quicker to agree with you. But we are talking about a 20 year old terrorist organization that has never been a country or legit government, and has never possessed land, they simply operate out of another countrys land, which obviously in this case would be Lebanon.
I would also suggest that it is actually in the Lebanese interest for Hezbollah to be dismantled and defeated. As long as Hezbollah has the military power, and after this ordeal quite possibly a much wider influence, then the Lebanese government is more or less a figure head with no power or control over their own country. And I dont think the citizens of Lebanon would benefit from a society completely controlled by Hezbollah.
They should abide by international law and withdraw from the occupied territories, and then start talking about right and wrong.
I dont disagree. Can you not equally apply that to Hezbollah? They are more or less a group funded by Iran and Syria and operating out of Lebanon. Is that not occupation of sorts?
I dont disagree. Can you not equally apply that to Hezbollah? They are more or less a group funded by Iran and Syria and operating out of Lebanon. Is that not occupation of sorts?
Of course. Hizbollah should stop firing rockets into Israel. On the other hand, we ourselves need to stop fuelling the flames of terrorism by engaging in state terrorism ourselves and provoking these people.
Controversially, it could be said Israel is more or less a group funded by the U.S and operating out of Palestine.
Comments
My overly simplified take on it is this. Any nation has a right to defend themselves when another nation, or group, is constantly launching missles at that nation. The difference in this situation, is that Israel is trying to defend themselves from a terrorist group in another country, instead of that country, which makes it difficult to fight. I do think Israel has gone a overboard, because their reaction is more or less destroying the infrastructure of the entire nation, and has actually garnered more support for Hezbollah. I wish that Israel would take a step back, and figure out a way to destroy Hezbollah, while at the same time causing little destruction and death to Lebanon. Thats obviously difficult to do since Hezbollah operates within a lot Lebanon, but at the same time it isnt fair to the Lebonese who arent associated with Hezbollah to face the Israeli wrath. On the other side, its not fair for Israeli's to have to deal with Hezbollah's missles either.
What would you say, if you knew Israel is providing the provocation?
...
What I'm saying, is that when I look at the whole history of this conflict, it seems Israel started it, they've provoked Hezbollah - and thus Hezbollah are the defenders, Israel are the attackers - this is there mainstream media is sure to disagree...
I understand that Israel's hands arent clean by any means. But Hezbollah is a terrorist group that was and is operating right across the Israel northern border, and was using that station to lob missles into Israel. You cant blame anyone for defending themselves. You can disagree with the method in which they go about defending themselves, which I do in this situation, but you cant expect Israel to just sit there while Hezbollah is pelting them with missles. There are innocent people on both sides of this conflict, and I think a governments top responsibility is protecting its people, so I dont blame Israel for defending themselves a bit, but, like I said, I do think they could do it in a more responsible manner that puts fewer Lebanese civilians at risk. But it by no means an easy situation.
terror = counter-terror = terror
I dont disagree with that. But at the same time, terror that isnt responded to and allowed to continue is still terror.
Non-violence is still a response.
...this terrorism problem is solved then, it's simple, when you see it that way...
Objectivity is the word...if people were capable of that one word, it would be a different world. Do people ever stop and wonder why they hate us? Oh yeah i forgot, it's for our freedom..lol
How do you think that goverment got there?
"First of all - this needs to be said, there never was a war."
"How can you say that Bill?"
(Bill Hicks, one heckuva comedian)
"Well, a war is when two armies are fighting."
*pause, for laughter*
"So you see, right there... we can all agree that, it wasn't exactly a war."
When it's one army against a militia... I don't know - I hafta agree with Bill on this one, it's not a war, it's a slaughter.
The U.S. Army vs. ...the "towelheads/ragheads" as my buddies in high school would say, "I can't wait to go straight to Iraq to kill some ragheads!"
The IDF vs. ...the Lebanese resistance...
Surely you can see how the rest of the civilized world might think of western civilization as a little less civilized than we doublethink ourselves to be.
We're the brutes.
We're the bullies.
We need comedians, our jesters to tell us what we're doing wrong, and then we laugh and pat our children on the head and forget all about it...
fuck...
"Iraq 150,000 casualties...
USA...
...79. haha!"
We don'er good daint we? Pa, huh? Ma - huh? ...yup we done 'er good...
(The id in me is feeling particularly bitter and resentful right now)
Speaking of Israel oppressing people, well, they do oppress their own citizens, they seem to also be quite keen on oppressing their own soldiers:
http://gnn.tv/articles/2480/Another_IDF_Refusenik_Jailed
You probably won't ever see Hezbollah jail one of their own soldiers, a largely voluntary force. Do Hezbollah even have jails? I'm not saying they're any more civilized, but I am saying Israel is NO MORE civilized...
Rather, Tommy needs to show the Israelis how to pull up G-12, now that W has sent them a bunch of them.
It's been a long, hard, heavily caffeinated night...
...that makes this a perfect morning for a little Bill Hicks and, at last - a glass of water!
No, I say this as if there are a good deal of terrorists whose goal is the destruction of Israel because it is Zionist, and expansionist, and continues to carry out an illegal military occupation. The majority of these terrorist groups you are referring to demand that Israel return to the pre 1967 borders. I.e, they demand that Israel abide by international law. But then, these things don't count in your scheme of things because you have a purely one-eyed view of the world. You'd make a great politician - the ability to block out facts which are troublesome to your view of the world, and the ability to convince yourself that you're right even when you know you are wrong.
Personally, as somebody who has left leaning political views and ideals, i find this post grossly insulting.
Are there any mods on today? Do they even watch out for breaches of the Message Pit sign up agreement ?
If there were no argument, then there wouldn't be a proper forum for voices to be heard and for ideas/opinions to be formulated in response to possible opposition/contradictory veiws/statements...
*looks back at what I just typed*
Yeah, too much coffee, and it's not wearing off...
"And if I had a clue I'd know exactly
What to do
If I were the wiser of the two
And if I saw it all so clear
I'd write it down and bend your ear
If I were the clearer of the two
We could take a walk into the
Canyons of 5th avenue
Sing and dance... just to name a few
All I do
All I do
And if I heard the angels sing I'd
Sing it back to you and bring the
Sound of heaven ringing just for you
And if I saw the sun fall down
I'd pick it up and make a crown
One that was a perfect fit for you
We could take a walk
Into the apple orchard by the school
We could make a little residue
We could find a place to stay
A secret little hide away
Spend a little time inside of you
All I do
All I do
All eyes
All eyes
All eyes on you
All I do
All I do
All I do
All I do"
RHCP - Stadium Arcadium - great midnight/early morning companion.
So your in favour of a middle east sing song then?
For some reason you keep acting as I am an Israeli apologist, when I have consistently said I dont agree with their methods of defense in this situation, and consistently acknowledged that they certainly have had blood on their hands in many situations over the years. I do agree with anyone having the right to defend themselves, but I dont agree with the manner Israel is doing that. It is possible to think both sides are wrong ya know. Of course I dont agree with what your article is saying, but that doesnt change my point about any of this a bit.
As Chomsky has said: "Israel certainly has a right to defend itself, but no state has the right to "defend" occupied territories."
So they should just let the missles pelt them on a daily basis with no response?
Wait, wait, wait - initially your response utterly confused me - I really try, in every possible way, never to compel or corrode either personal bias or persons in particular.
I think I see what the matter is.
I keep using "you," in the third person, referring to a broad general audience - and not, "you," referring to the person/poster I'm responding to!
Sorry for the confusion, but I wasn't referring to, "you."
Oh, boy...
I blame the Starbucks corporation.
No problem, message boards can get confusing at times.
As I've said before - non-violence is just as just a response.
In fact, it should be whole heartedly considered, with great weight! Because I think, if non-violence is pursued by one side, the other will be compelled by nothing short of a universally harmonic human condition to follow.
If one gorup does defy an act of non-violence, like Hitler might... most definitly would have - THEN, IS THE ONLY TIME FOR FORCE.
Hezbollah just want their land back, it's not too hard to see that. That is at least one of their conditions and probably a great majority of their motive. Israeli's, Lebanese - they all pray for peace.
Hezbollah has no land, and has never had land. Hezbollah is a organization created in the 80s. If we were talking about Palestine, and not Hezbollah, I would be much quicker to agree with you. But we are talking about a 20 year old terrorist organization that has never been a country or legit government, and has never possessed land, they simply operate out of another countrys land, which obviously in this case would be Lebanon.
An interesting POV...
I would also suggest that it is actually in the Lebanese interest for Hezbollah to be dismantled and defeated. As long as Hezbollah has the military power, and after this ordeal quite possibly a much wider influence, then the Lebanese government is more or less a figure head with no power or control over their own country. And I dont think the citizens of Lebanon would benefit from a society completely controlled by Hezbollah.
They should abide by international law and withdraw from the occupied territories, and then start talking about right and wrong.
I dont disagree. Can you not equally apply that to Hezbollah? They are more or less a group funded by Iran and Syria and operating out of Lebanon. Is that not occupation of sorts?
Of course. Hizbollah should stop firing rockets into Israel. On the other hand, we ourselves need to stop fuelling the flames of terrorism by engaging in state terrorism ourselves and provoking these people.
Controversially, it could be said Israel is more or less a group funded by the U.S and operating out of Palestine.