What we have not done in Iraq is terrorism as much as anything.
manipulated your post a little by deleting some words and came up with something I find factual, though Iraq's situation is bleek, grime, and our falt, and I can't stand the current administration, their policies, think they are a bunch of incompetents, starting with a President that was highly unqualified for the position, which does happen, but come on, he's off the curve unqualified...what to do, what to do
"Music, for me, was fucking heroin." eV (nothing Ed has said is more true for me personally than this quote)
Its like a bad dream. At first I was reading the news just to see if any of them were Americans. Then I felt guilty when there were't any and I was relieved. What can we do to help bring this dissaster to an end?
Why doesn't anyone care about the human beings killed in the USA (cough*abortion*cough)?
"If you want peace, be prepared for war."
George Washington
well you continue to dismiss all the horrible killing we have brought upon Iraq. You consider the military men we killed somehow a work related accident. Do you feel the same about the military men and women killed at Pearl Harbor?
I didn't dismiss it at all. Just because I don't want to immediately withdraw and abandon the mission, you draw the conclusion that I don't care that people die. I care very much for all the innocent life lost.
I don't lose sleep over terrorist or Saddam's military men, no. Why would I? And I'm not sure what you mean with the Pearl Harbor reference. Again, they were uniformed military personnel, at a military base. Not the same as 9/11. Where is the confusion?
I never said the poor terrorists. The people of Iraq are not terrorists. They are a defeated nation that are forgotten and left to live in lawlessness. The criminals are free to roam and kill because of the state we left that country in. We have installed a psudo government that can't lead or protect and we don't have any desire to protect the people - only the installed government.
I didn't dismiss it at all. Just because I don't want to immediately withdraw and abandon the mission, you draw the conclusion that I don't care that people die. I care very much for all the innocent life lost.
I don't lose sleep over terrorist or Saddam's military men, no. Why would I? And I'm not sure what you mean with the Pearl Harbor reference. Again, they were uniformed military personnel, at a military base. Not the same as 9/11. Where is the confusion?
And they never will if you had your way.
Wow. Well that's real nice. America is a terrorist state. Thank goodness you aren't in charge of protecting me and my family.
- Dan
Iraq was never a threat to you - no matter how often you say it. or how good it sound for the half million or so dead Iraqis because of that false belief
Iraq was never a threat to you - no matter how often you say it. or how good it sound for the half million or so dead Iraqis because of that false belief
I'll concede that point. We were wrong. I have a real problem with the President continuing to say he would do it all over again, knowing what we know now.
Now, you an I are gonna differ, because you are going to call Bush a liar, a murderer, a war profiteer, the devil incarnate, etc, etc.
I know he was wrong. I'm gonna stop there because calling him all those names doesn't really contribute to the conversation much, at least not constructively. There is plenty of that stuff all over this board if either of us wish to partake.
So, what is your point exactly? Because we messed up, because the world was fooled, we should abort, regardless of the cost? Do you really think Iraq will benefit from that? That our country will benefit from that?
I'll concede that point. We were wrong. I have a real problem with the President continuing to say he would do it all over again, knowing what we know now.
Now, you an I are gonna differ, because you are going to call Bush a liar, a murderer, a war profiteer, the devil incarnate, etc, etc.
I know he was wrong. I'm gonna stop there because calling him all those names doesn't really contribute to the conversation much, at least not constructively. There is plenty of that stuff all over this board if either of us wish to partake.
So, what is your point exactly? Because we messed up, because the world was fooled, we should abort, regardless of the cost? Do you really think Iraq will benefit from that? That our country will benefit from that?
- Dan
No sir, I don't support leaving. I support stopping what we are doing. We owe a great deal to Iraq.
We can start by ending the hate againt the middle east campaign. We need to acknowledge our error, and to show Iraq and the Middle East for what it really is.
We need to stop ignoring other leaders
We need to include all the leaders, including Iran, in the cleanup of our horror.
We need to acknowledge the very difficult problem Israel poses to the region, and stop calling those opposed to Israel fanatics and terrorists
stop calling those opposed to the murderous ("however accidentally") american occupiers - insurgents and terrorists.
thats a start.
If we keep holding our sorry asses up on a pedistal and insulting them - all we do is perpetuating the slaughter of the unfortunately militarily inferior people of the region.
No sir, I don't support leaving. I support stopping what we are doing. We owe a great deal to Iraq.
We can start by ending the hate againt the middle east campaign. We need to acknowledge our error, and to show Iraq and the Middle East for what it really is.
We need to stop ignoring other leaders
We need to include all the leaders, including Iran, in the cleanup of our horror.
We need to acknowledge the very difficult problem Israel poses to the region, and stop calling those opposed to Israel fanatics and terrorists
stop calling those opposed to the murderous ("however accidentally") american occupiers - insurgents and terrorists.
thats a start.
If we keep holding our sorry asses up on a pedistal and insulting them - all we do is perpetuating the slaughter of the unfortunately militarily inferior people of the region.
Oh, boy.
Look, that's nice to dream about, but let's speak realistically.
Include Iran in the talks?
Stop calling terrorists, terrorists? Call them "opposers"?? This isn't Ghandi or MLK we're dealing with. They will never accept peace, a truce, or a cease fire. They survive on chaos and mayhem. You think we can all sit around a big table and work it out?
I really am baffled by your suggestion. You can't run foreign policy and national security by listening to John Lennon's 'Imagine.' It's a beautiful message, but to demand that America protect its people by pretending to live in a utopian pipe dream is ludicrous.
Again, you excuse the actions of our enemies. It's somehow all the US's fault.
Look, that's nice to dream about, but let's speak realistically.
Include Iran in the talks?
Stop calling terrorists, terrorists? Call them "opposers"?? This isn't Ghandi or MLK we're dealing with. They will never accept peace, a truce, or a cease fire. They survive on chaos and mayhem. You think we can all sit around a big table and work it out?
I really am baffled by your suggestion. You can't run foreign policy and national security by listening to John Lennon's 'Imagine.' It's a beautiful message, but to demand that America protect its people by pretending to live in a utopian pipe dream is ludicrous.
Again, you excuse the actions of our enemies. It's somehow all the US's fault.
- Dan
Osama is a terrorist. He and some others thrive and recruit because the region hates America - We can not stop Al Qaeda without the help of the Middle East.
The resistance in Iraq is not terrorism. It is survival.
Like it or not, Iran and Saudi and all the rest of them are countries with people. We are no better than these people.
If we can't work with them - then their criminals will continue to hurt us.
Its not complicated.
We must include the nations of the Middle East in all our plans. We must understand what they need and they what we need. and work together.
Our arrogance, ignorance, and willingness to treat so many of their people like bugs - and just kill them - is more than half the problem.
Osama is a terrorist. He and some others thrive and recruit because the region hates America - We can not stop Al Qaeda without the help of the Middle East.
It's hard when have so we have so few allies, mostly because the region teaches from infancy to despise us.
The resistance in Iraq is not terrorism. It is survival.
Survival of terrorists. Again, and I don't know how many more times I can state this, the overwhelming majority of Iraqi's are not part of this "resistance." It is a small minority of the country that fears what the West has to offer people, namely freedom. These people are not "survivors" of American occupation, they are insurgents who terrorize their fellow countrymen who actually support a democratic Iraq.
Like it or not, Iran and Saudi and all the rest of them are countries with people. We are no better than these people.
We are no better than the innocent and oppressed civilians. We are better than their governments and what they stand for, i.e. oppressive and intolerant regimes.
If we can't work with them - then their criminals will continue to hurt us.
Its not complicated.
We must include the nations of the Middle East in all our plans. We must understand what they need and they what we need. and work together..
It is difficult to deal with people who are represented by oppressors and intolerant governments. Again, seperate the good guys from the bad guys, and stop thinking that concessions and diplomacy are the answer to everything. The writing is on the wall with Iran in particular; there are some people that you cannot reason with.
- Dan
P.S. I love how again, their behavior is excused by you. We are arrogant, we are ignorant. But Iran, whose government leads its people in "Death to America" chants, and wants Israel and all Jews "wiped off the map" are a-okay by you. We should chit-chat with them, discuss ideas, etc. Because according to you, they are the enlightened and humble ones. Give me a break...
It's hard when have so we have so few allies, mostly because the region teaches from infancy to despise us.
Survival of terrorists. Again, and I don't know how many more times I can state this, the overwhelming majority of Iraqi's are not part of this "resistance." It is a small minority of the country that fears what the West has to offer people, namely freedom. These people are not "survivors" of American occupation, they are insurgents who terrorize their fellow countrymen who actually support a democratic Iraq.
We are no better than the innocent and oppressed civilians. We are better than their governments and what they stand for, i.e. oppressive and intolerant regimes.
It is difficult to deal with people who are represented by oppressors and intolerant governments. Again, seperate the good guys from the bad guys, and stop thinking that concessions and diplomacy are the answer to everything. The writing is on the wall with Iran in particular; there are some people that you cannot reason with.
- Dan
P.S. I love how again, their behavior is excused by you. We are arrogant, we are ignorant. But Iran, whose government leads its people in "Death to America" chants, and wants Israel and all Jews "wiped off the map" are a-okay by you. We should chit-chat with them, discuss ideas, etc. Because according to you, they are the enlightened and humble ones. Give me a break...
we killed a half a million Iraqis and oops was good enough for you.
we killed a half a million Iraqis and oops was good enough for you.
They killed some 3,000 civilain Americans in one day and you blame America.
They've killed about the same amount of US military personnel, and you blame America.
They have plotted and in some cases succesfully carried out assasination attempts of their own government officials, with the pure ambition of disrupting democracy. The United States is again to blame.
They are responsible for countless deaths of their own countrymen, and you blame America.
They continue to promote chaos and bloodshed at the hands of their own government and security forces, and you again, blame America.
They have and continue to capture innocent civilians, laborers, reporters, etc. and have filmed themselves reveling in the decapitation of their captors. America is of course, again to blame.
And as they do all of this and more, they give you not even an "oops." What do they offer you? Nothing but a promise that more of it will continue. The only end in sight? A regime run by these monsters who will rule their people in a fashion akin to Saddam, and promote terrorism and hatred towards America.
Is America perfect? No, sir. From from it, I'll be the first to admit. However, you cannot point to bad behavior of our government as an excuse for our enemies much greater bad behavior.
More people die on American roads daily then are people killed in Iraq daily. But all this "reporting" of the casualities in Iraq is nothing more than some ungrateful libs whining about the "evils" of America and the Bush administration. It's unfortunate that people are dying in Iraq, but war is hell. And it doesn't help that the insurgants will use civilians as shields..
"If you want peace, be prepared for war."
George Washington
Remember Insurgents are just civilians we've given ourselves permission to kill
Charles Manson was a civilian. Timothy McVeigh too.
And you're damn right we've given ourselves permission to kill insurgents. The whole country backed it, the Iraqi parliment backs it, Iraqi civilians back it (as evidenced by the continuing rise in recruitment numbers for security forces.)
Only two types of people don't back killing terrorists. Terrorists, and their sympathizers.
Charles Manson was a civilian. Timothy McVeigh too.
And you're damn right we've given ourselves permission to kill insurgents. The whole country backed it, the Iraqi parliment backs it, Iraqi civilians back it (as evidenced by the continuing rise in recruitment numbers for security forces.)
Only two types of people don't back killing terrorists. Terrorists, and their sympathizers.
Which side are you on?
- Dan
What are you using as evidence for killing these "insurgents"? They've killed thousands upon thousands of "insurgents"..
you conveniently say there are small pockets of resistance - but support the murder of tens many hundreds of thousands of people that someone told you are "insurgents".
If we didn't know about the raped girl and her parents and little sister - they could have been tallied under insurgenst and you'd happily support the murder.
you have young, tired, angry, freightened and misinformed people with guns acting as judge jury and executioner
damn right I don't believe all those killed are "insurgents" I believe most are just Iraqis fighting off the invadors.. the unprovoked monster
Charles Manson was a civilian. Timothy McVeigh too.
And you're damn right we've given ourselves permission to kill insurgents. The whole country backed it, the Iraqi parliment backs it, Iraqi civilians back it (as evidenced by the continuing rise in recruitment numbers for security forces.)
Only two types of people don't back killing terrorists. Terrorists, and their sympathizers.
Which side are you on?
- Dan
"Your either with us or against us"....ohh I love this babble.....
What are you using as evidence for killing these "insurgents"? They've killed thousands upon thousands of "insurgents"..
you conveniently say there are small pockets of resistance - but support the murder of tens many hundreds of thousands of people that someone told you are "insurgents".
If we didn't know about the raped girl and her parents and little sister - they could have been tallied under insurgenst and you'd happily support the murder.
you have young, tired, angry, freightened and misinformed people with guns acting as judge jury and executioner
damn right I don't believe all those killed are "insurgents" I believe most are just Iraqis fighting off the invadors.. the unprovoked monster
You're right, the media in our country is so right-wing that they just tally all Iraqi deaths as terrorist deaths. They don't seperate at all, they just chalk it all up as a victory for W. and his war. Yee-ha!!
Get with it. Everytime civilians are killed in Iraq, I hear about it. You do, we all do. Look at that website I referenced. Pretty conservative, eh?
How do you explain the task forces established by Iraqi citizens to kill the insurgents?
How do explain Iraqi's standing up, in greater and greater numbers, side by side with the evil "unprovoked monster" American military, against these terrorists?
You ignore this. You ignore the elections. You ignore the evil that the radical extremists are spreading. You ignore the senseless and intentional killing by the enemy.
You will continue to harp on accidental civilian casualties. You will continue to say that all of our enemies are innocent, law abiding Iraqi's gone bad. Why have they gone bad? America's fault, but of course!
None of these people are on our side. No one in Iraq is being protected by us, no Iraqi's are voting, no Iraqi's are fighting with us, no Iraqi women are enjoying equal rights, and on and on and on...
None of that's happening. None of them want freedom. In your world, it's all America's fault, it's all an imperialistic plot by Bush, it's all a fear tactic based conspiracy.
You're right, the media in our country is so right-wing that they just tally all Iraqi deaths as terrorist deaths. They don't seperate at all, they just chalk it all up as a victory for W. and his war. Yee-ha!!
Get with it. Everytime civilians are killed in Iraq, I hear about it. You do, we all do. Look at that website I referenced. Pretty conservative, eh?
How do you explain the task forces established by Iraqi citizens to kill the insurgents?
How do explain Iraqi's standing up, in greater and greater numbers, side by side with the evil "unprovoked monster" American military, against these terrorists?
You ignore this. You ignore the elections. You ignore the evil that the radical extremists are spreading. You ignore the senseless and intentional killing by the enemy.
You will continue to harp on accidental civilian casualties. You will continue to say that all of our enemies are innocent, law abiding Iraqi's gone bad. Why have they gone bad? America's fault, but of course!
None of these people are on our side. No one in Iraq is being protected by us, no Iraqi's are voting, no Iraqi's are fighting with us, no Iraqi women are enjoying equal rights, and on and on and on...
None of that's happening. None of them want freedom. In your world, it's all America's fault, it's all an imperialistic plot by Bush, it's all a fear tactic based conspiracy.
It's sad, really, your line of thought.
- Dan
If it was a European country - we'd have 500,000 troops to ensure their streets were safe.
You're right, the media in our country is so right-wing that they just tally all Iraqi deaths as terrorist deaths. They don't seperate at all, they just chalk it all up as a victory for W. and his war. Yee-ha!!
Get with it. Everytime civilians are killed in Iraq, I hear about it. You do, we all do. Look at that website I referenced. Pretty conservative, eh?
How do you explain the task forces established by Iraqi citizens to kill the insurgents?
How do explain Iraqi's standing up, in greater and greater numbers, side by side with the evil "unprovoked monster" American military, against these terrorists?
You ignore this. You ignore the elections. You ignore the evil that the radical extremists are spreading. You ignore the senseless and intentional killing by the enemy.
You will continue to harp on accidental civilian casualties. You will continue to say that all of our enemies are innocent, law abiding Iraqi's gone bad. Why have they gone bad? America's fault, but of course!
None of these people are on our side. No one in Iraq is being protected by us, no Iraqi's are voting, no Iraqi's are fighting with us, no Iraqi women are enjoying equal rights, and on and on and on...
None of that's happening. None of them want freedom. In your world, it's all America's fault, it's all an imperialistic plot by Bush, it's all a fear tactic based conspiracy.
If it was a European country - we'd have 500,000 troops to ensure their streets were safe.
Lol, oh, I forgot to add that you think we're Muslim hating racists. How silly of me.
And you're right about the Europe thing; they would need that many since they have no backbone and wouldn't stand up for themselves as well as the Iraqi's have.
Comments
manipulated your post a little by deleting some words and came up with something I find factual, though Iraq's situation is bleek, grime, and our falt, and I can't stand the current administration, their policies, think they are a bunch of incompetents, starting with a President that was highly unqualified for the position, which does happen, but come on, he's off the curve unqualified...what to do, what to do
Stop by:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=14678777351&ref=mf
Why doesn't anyone care about the human beings killed in the USA (cough*abortion*cough)?
George Washington
I'd love to be against abortion my friend. The United States can't handle such a committment. Its sad, but its true.
I didn't dismiss it at all. Just because I don't want to immediately withdraw and abandon the mission, you draw the conclusion that I don't care that people die. I care very much for all the innocent life lost.
I don't lose sleep over terrorist or Saddam's military men, no. Why would I? And I'm not sure what you mean with the Pearl Harbor reference. Again, they were uniformed military personnel, at a military base. Not the same as 9/11. Where is the confusion?
And they never will if you had your way.
Wow. Well that's real nice. America is a terrorist state. Thank goodness you aren't in charge of protecting me and my family.
- Dan
I'll concede that point. We were wrong. I have a real problem with the President continuing to say he would do it all over again, knowing what we know now.
Now, you an I are gonna differ, because you are going to call Bush a liar, a murderer, a war profiteer, the devil incarnate, etc, etc.
I know he was wrong. I'm gonna stop there because calling him all those names doesn't really contribute to the conversation much, at least not constructively. There is plenty of that stuff all over this board if either of us wish to partake.
So, what is your point exactly? Because we messed up, because the world was fooled, we should abort, regardless of the cost? Do you really think Iraq will benefit from that? That our country will benefit from that?
- Dan
No sir, I don't support leaving. I support stopping what we are doing. We owe a great deal to Iraq.
We can start by ending the hate againt the middle east campaign. We need to acknowledge our error, and to show Iraq and the Middle East for what it really is.
We need to stop ignoring other leaders
We need to include all the leaders, including Iran, in the cleanup of our horror.
We need to acknowledge the very difficult problem Israel poses to the region, and stop calling those opposed to Israel fanatics and terrorists
stop calling those opposed to the murderous ("however accidentally") american occupiers - insurgents and terrorists.
thats a start.
If we keep holding our sorry asses up on a pedistal and insulting them - all we do is perpetuating the slaughter of the unfortunately militarily inferior people of the region.
Oh, boy.
Look, that's nice to dream about, but let's speak realistically.
Include Iran in the talks?
Stop calling terrorists, terrorists? Call them "opposers"?? This isn't Ghandi or MLK we're dealing with. They will never accept peace, a truce, or a cease fire. They survive on chaos and mayhem. You think we can all sit around a big table and work it out?
I really am baffled by your suggestion. You can't run foreign policy and national security by listening to John Lennon's 'Imagine.' It's a beautiful message, but to demand that America protect its people by pretending to live in a utopian pipe dream is ludicrous.
Again, you excuse the actions of our enemies. It's somehow all the US's fault.
- Dan
Osama is a terrorist. He and some others thrive and recruit because the region hates America - We can not stop Al Qaeda without the help of the Middle East.
The resistance in Iraq is not terrorism. It is survival.
Like it or not, Iran and Saudi and all the rest of them are countries with people. We are no better than these people.
If we can't work with them - then their criminals will continue to hurt us.
Its not complicated.
We must include the nations of the Middle East in all our plans. We must understand what they need and they what we need. and work together.
Our arrogance, ignorance, and willingness to treat so many of their people like bugs - and just kill them - is more than half the problem.
It's hard when have so we have so few allies, mostly because the region teaches from infancy to despise us.
Survival of terrorists. Again, and I don't know how many more times I can state this, the overwhelming majority of Iraqi's are not part of this "resistance." It is a small minority of the country that fears what the West has to offer people, namely freedom. These people are not "survivors" of American occupation, they are insurgents who terrorize their fellow countrymen who actually support a democratic Iraq.
We are no better than the innocent and oppressed civilians. We are better than their governments and what they stand for, i.e. oppressive and intolerant regimes.
It is difficult to deal with people who are represented by oppressors and intolerant governments. Again, seperate the good guys from the bad guys, and stop thinking that concessions and diplomacy are the answer to everything. The writing is on the wall with Iran in particular; there are some people that you cannot reason with.
- Dan
P.S. I love how again, their behavior is excused by you. We are arrogant, we are ignorant. But Iran, whose government leads its people in "Death to America" chants, and wants Israel and all Jews "wiped off the map" are a-okay by you. We should chit-chat with them, discuss ideas, etc. Because according to you, they are the enlightened and humble ones. Give me a break...
we killed a half a million Iraqis and oops was good enough for you.
They killed some 3,000 civilain Americans in one day and you blame America.
They've killed about the same amount of US military personnel, and you blame America.
They have plotted and in some cases succesfully carried out assasination attempts of their own government officials, with the pure ambition of disrupting democracy. The United States is again to blame.
They are responsible for countless deaths of their own countrymen, and you blame America.
They continue to promote chaos and bloodshed at the hands of their own government and security forces, and you again, blame America.
They have and continue to capture innocent civilians, laborers, reporters, etc. and have filmed themselves reveling in the decapitation of their captors. America is of course, again to blame.
And as they do all of this and more, they give you not even an "oops." What do they offer you? Nothing but a promise that more of it will continue. The only end in sight? A regime run by these monsters who will rule their people in a fashion akin to Saddam, and promote terrorism and hatred towards America.
Is America perfect? No, sir. From from it, I'll be the first to admit. However, you cannot point to bad behavior of our government as an excuse for our enemies much greater bad behavior.
That's a big difference in our discussion.
- Dan
Oh, and by the way, where do you get half a million???
I'm not trying to nail you on a technicality by that's a pretty gross overstatement, eh? http://www.iraqbodycount.net/
- Dan
George Washington
40,000 Civilians
Add "insurgents"
then add Military...
Of course you can't find those numbers.. but see if you can locate the size of Saddam's military say in the year 2001.
Remember Insurgents are just civilians we've given ourselves permission to kill
Charles Manson was a civilian. Timothy McVeigh too.
And you're damn right we've given ourselves permission to kill insurgents. The whole country backed it, the Iraqi parliment backs it, Iraqi civilians back it (as evidenced by the continuing rise in recruitment numbers for security forces.)
Only two types of people don't back killing terrorists. Terrorists, and their sympathizers.
Which side are you on?
- Dan
What are you using as evidence for killing these "insurgents"? They've killed thousands upon thousands of "insurgents"..
you conveniently say there are small pockets of resistance - but support the murder of tens many hundreds of thousands of people that someone told you are "insurgents".
If we didn't know about the raped girl and her parents and little sister - they could have been tallied under insurgenst and you'd happily support the murder.
you have young, tired, angry, freightened and misinformed people with guns acting as judge jury and executioner
damn right I don't believe all those killed are "insurgents" I believe most are just Iraqis fighting off the invadors.. the unprovoked monster
"Your either with us or against us"....ohh I love this babble.....
You're right, the media in our country is so right-wing that they just tally all Iraqi deaths as terrorist deaths. They don't seperate at all, they just chalk it all up as a victory for W. and his war. Yee-ha!!
Get with it. Everytime civilians are killed in Iraq, I hear about it. You do, we all do. Look at that website I referenced. Pretty conservative, eh?
How do you explain the task forces established by Iraqi citizens to kill the insurgents?
How do explain Iraqi's standing up, in greater and greater numbers, side by side with the evil "unprovoked monster" American military, against these terrorists?
You ignore this. You ignore the elections. You ignore the evil that the radical extremists are spreading. You ignore the senseless and intentional killing by the enemy.
You will continue to harp on accidental civilian casualties. You will continue to say that all of our enemies are innocent, law abiding Iraqi's gone bad. Why have they gone bad? America's fault, but of course!
None of these people are on our side. No one in Iraq is being protected by us, no Iraqi's are voting, no Iraqi's are fighting with us, no Iraqi women are enjoying equal rights, and on and on and on...
None of that's happening. None of them want freedom. In your world, it's all America's fault, it's all an imperialistic plot by Bush, it's all a fear tactic based conspiracy.
It's sad, really, your line of thought.
- Dan
If it was a European country - we'd have 500,000 troops to ensure their streets were safe.
Something is definately sad
Lol, oh, I forgot to add that you think we're Muslim hating racists. How silly of me.
And you're right about the Europe thing; they would need that many since they have no backbone and wouldn't stand up for themselves as well as the Iraqi's have.
- Dan