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31 more humans died in Iraq today.
jimdietrich
Posts: 42
Its like a bad dream. At first I was reading the news just to see if any of them were Americans. Then I felt guilty when there were't any and I was relieved. What can we do to help bring this dissaster to an end?
Anger is a gift
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What can be done? America is trying to provide the best security they can, and to be fair, most of the country is stable. However the pockets of resistance that do exist have proven to be quite formidable.
Sadly, an easy answer does not seem to present itself. Nothing in that region ever is easy or simple, and much more blood will be shed.
Here's hoping for hope's sake.
- Dan
Americans are not trying to provide security to Iraqis at all. they are securing the government they installed and themselves.
If their concerned for Iraqi civilians - and they dying at at alarming rate - how can they proclaim that we don't need more troops?
Why does it matter if they are Americans over Canadian, Brits, Iraqi's etc? We're all people.
I guess I'm leaning towards a total pull-out. Perhaps we need to start worrying about #1 so we stop stepping in #2. We've got our own issues over here. "Petty" as they may seem in comparison to the rest of the World's problems, they're still significant to us.
I'd like our government to cut back on spending outside of our boundaries and start paying off it's debt so I can retire before I'm dead. If they pull another 9/11...then we'll deal with that at as quickly, cheaply, and harshly as we can, but it's about time to give up on the Middle East and it's oil and concentrate on becoming fully self-sufficient by expediting the need for our autos to be hybrids, fully electric, or better yet to make the hydrogen fuel cell vehicles a reality BEFORE gas is $6/gallon or the oil runs out.
1998 (2) - East Lansing & Auburn Hills; 2000 (2) - Tampa & Noblesville; 2003 (2) - Lexington & Noblesville; 2006 (1) - Cincinnati; 2007 (1) - Chicago (Lollapalooza); 2008 (Ed in Milwaukee); 2009 (1) - Chicago; 2010 (1) - Noblesville; 2013 (3) - San Diego & Los Angeles I & II; 2016 (Temple of the Dog in Los Angeles); 2017 (Ed at Ohana in Dana Point);
2021 (3) - Dana Point I, II & III; 2022 (3) - San Diego & Los Angeles I & II; 2025 - Southern U.S. Tour Please!
That goverment installed is not made up of Americans, pal. Those are Iraqi's. That government is dedicated to protecting it's people, whom are, yep, you guessed it; Iraqi's.
The United States is providing the best security it can for the Iraqi government and its people. They are facing a bitter enemy that's only goal is to provide as much chaos as possible, in an effort to get us to leave. They want us to leave for a reason. They want to overthrow said Iraqi government and impose a tyrannical rule over said Iraqi people.
The only thing stopping them is the USA. They are providing security to the people and their government.
Am I confused?
- Dan
I believe you are Dan. You gave me credit for know that the people in the installed government are Iraqis... are you aware that those fighting the occupation and installed government are... Iraqis? Is it possible that they are fighting the Americanization of Iraq. Is it possible they prefer to rule themselves based upon their own principles - and not by those forced upon them by the aggressive military that conquered them?
We.. Americans are providing no protection for the ordinary Iraqi citizens. And the imposed government is not providing any security for the ordinary Iraqi citizens either as evidenced by their being killed every day.
Sure there are bad people doing alot of killing. There are bad people everywhere - the difference in Iraq is that they is no security. The people of their military have been killed by American weapons. and America doesn't care to provide any security - and the people of Iraq do not support the Iraqis in government trying to push the American aganda.
All the death in Iraq today is due to the occupation. If we leave - the government we installed will definatly be disolved.. either voluntarily or be overthrown by the People "Iraqis".
So be it.. our staying will only prolong the battle to remove America from Iraq -
America will surely be removed from Iraq eventually. The longer it takes, the more ordinary Iraqi citizens will die.
They are not all Iraqi's. Many of them are foreign "freedom fighters" who are looking to kill Americans and snuff out democracy and free will. I'll give you some are Iraqi's, sure. Saddam had his loyalists, and they have been succesful at recruiting weak minded people to blow themselves up and kill coalition members, and their own countrymen, including women and children.
Of course they are fighting the Americanization. Even a moderate conservative dingbat like myself knows that. However you are really confusing me, here. Rule themselves? Their own principles? These people are not the one's Iraqi's want running the show. The only one's who want them in power are they themselves. Saddam's Iraq, Part 2. They are the one's who feel most conquered. Naturally everyone in Iraq wants us to leave, but not everyone says "NOW!" They said last year that we shouldn't leave yet, we shouldn't reduce troop levels too much. Now they hope to have enough security to protect themselves by years end. This does not sound like a "conquered government" to me.
I say again, that most of the country is living in complete stability. I really don't know how you can say we're providing no security. How many free elections have taken place? Do those occur without America? What about their infastructure that we continue to help strengthen? What about the training of police and security forces we have and continue to provide?
Of course people are dying, but not because of America being there. If we pull out, the bloodshed would be 10-fold until another fear mongering regime would be established. We seem to at least agree on this point. Then Iraqi's will stop dying at a huge rate, at least reported death's anyway. Have you been following Saddam's trial at all? That's what will return if we aren't providing the security we are. I acknowledge it's a mess. My 1st post says so. I'm not trying to paint a rosy picture, I'm just saying that we are making an effort. Can you not give our military that much??
Bad people everywhere? Huh? That's a retort?
Iraqi's are going to run that country if we have our way. It will be up to them in time. (ideally) I am not worried about us occupying and making it America II against their will. The second I see this happening, I'll be very much against it. If they want McDonald's and Cadillacs and Starbucks, fine. If not, fine. They can do as they choose. Choice. Freedom. That's the point. And it's exactly what people are dying for. The insurgency is killing Iraqi civilians and Americans simply because we are there. They fear what we have to offer.
Not an occupation. And how can you excuse the actions of these people? The brutal slaughtering, the decapitation of civilians, etc. That's America's fault? I hope you don't think that, because I find to be a very warped view on things. This blame America first crowd is growing so tiresome.
I guess I still think we oughta give them the best chance possible. They have to want it, for sure. We will leave, as you said, but I don't think it has to be a war fought for nothing. I am losing my patience, yes. But I'm not to the point yet that I'm going to chalk this up as a total failure and bail on these people who have fought and bled and died beside us, fighting for something as basic and pure as the birth right of freedom.
You may be right, time may prove me wrong. But I don't think that hour is upon us yet...
- Dan
Ok, and i dotn want this to develop into a liberal freak / republican murderer type of destruction, id just like to further discuss the above sentence with you. If you don't mind, of course.
Now, if you had said, i did support Bush, but now I don't because I was lied to and its a mess out there, I can understand that. We'rea ll human, al make mistakes, and it takes a real man to admit to that. But, you say you stil support war, and putting more troops in. THis is after the original premise for war ha sbeen completely shown to be fraudulent. Pentagon reports and State Department investigations proved there were no WMDS beyond a shadow of a doubt. So why, seeing as you are a human being, would you support continued military action which leads to immense suffering and loss of life for those that partake and or oppressed by it?
This is not an attack. This is a discussion, and in order to understand other people's views, you have to talk to them.
Well your response was thoughtful. I quotes what I disagree with
first of all I believe the number of reported deaths in June and July was something like 14,000
You quote the government. that is not the voice of the people, that is the voice of the very small group we fund and protect.
The reference to foreign freedom fighters is dismissive. there are some foreigners for local countries sympathetic to their plight lending support - but the vast majority of the resistence to occupation is Iraqis.
I am sorry you are tired of the blame america crowd. Perhapys its so persistant because it has merit
my mention of bad people was to illustrate that in a lawless land - bad people take over. Iraq is lawless becuase we made it so. their criminals run free to terrorize the helpless land. Imagine Los Angeles if we had no military or police.
The voice of the people is echoed by the government they voted in. Again, I know they want us gone, I want us gone, everyone wants Iraqi's to rule Iraq, but it must be done at a responsible rate. Do you honestly beleive the great people of Iraq would rather us be out today if it meant more of their families would die, and the end result would be a country run by the insurgency? Keep in mind, these people cheer Saddam's trial and pray for his conviction. These people proudly voted in great masses on free election days. They did so with the full knowledge that they were literally taking their life in their hands as they went to the voting sights, a concept no American can possibly fathom.
Just because the vast majority of the insurgency may be Iraqi's doesn't mean the vast majority of Iraq is on their side. The estimates of the insurgency in Iraq run just under 10,000 militants last I heard. They are a very, very small minority of resistance. Because they are terrorists, who act in a barbaric fashion, they are able to disrupt the process as much as they have, a concept that was totally lost on the Bush administration.
But it doesn't mean we can fuse Iraqi's with Iraqi insurgency in terms of one mindset. Yes, they both want us gone, but the means by which they want us gone couldn't be further apart.
The blame America first crowd is only persistent in small circles. I happen to be a huge Pearl Jam fan, which regrettably seems to be a hotbed for this type of thinking. It does not hold much merit with me, and it resonates poorly with people all over. The far left and its strategies are by far, in my opinion, the biggest reason why Bush is a two-term President.
- Dan
The far left and its strategies are by far, in my opinion, the biggest reason why Bush is a two-term President.
thats funny! and somwhat true
Don't like the term terrorist or any judging of tactics of war. Just because our killing is more "professional" doesn't make it more noble.
and I don't like any presumption about "proudly voting". they were bombed and told to vote so they can have their country back - and they did. So far, all they are getting is killed.
I thought we were "caring" about human life here. You suggest we get out now, even if that means a civil war, which means many, many more people will die than if we had stayed. Which again proves my theory that liberals think it is okay for civilians to die anywhere in the world, unless they are killed unintentionally by the US or Israel.
People are dying now with no progress. If they need a civil war to establsh the future of their country, we can't do anything about that. If we just stay - they people will continue to die for nothing. The numbers are incredible that we've killed and are allowing, even instigating, to be killed today. If they have a civil war - it will have a winner - and an Iraqi outcome.
No one is laughing harder than Republican's. Did you read that thread with the letter from Michael Moore on his reaction to Leibarman's defeat? Nice people to have behind a party, eh?
Excuse me? War is hell, yes. However not all wars are fought on the same level of morality. Suicide bombers, cutting off heads, slaughtering women and children, using innocent civilians as human shields, etc.
The U.S. military is fighting a noble fight. Please spare me the exceptions a-la Abu Grhaib (sp?) or this most recent trial on the rape and murder of that 14 year old girl. These are dispicable acts, and black eyes on a brilliant and talented task force. Those people should get everything coming to them, and I hope they do. But do not equate them to the terrorists as if to say because a war is being fought, both sides are on the same level of decency. Open your eyes.
You don't like my presumption, so you come up with one of your own and present it to me as fact? I can only go by what I see, but they looked elated to be exercising individual rights. They looked more and more excited every time they had the opportunity. The government has compromised, they have drafted official documents laying the ground work for their functions, etc. These people do not give me the impression that they are just putting on a show to get us to leave.
Again, I don't know, I'm not there and I'm not in their heads, but that's how I perceive it. You perceive the opposite. I'm not really sure why you choose to think so cynically when looking into their smiling faces and tear filled eyes as they raised their purple thumbs in the air, mocking the insurgents in a beautiful display of freedom, but you do. They looked proud to me.
The good people of Iraq are not strong enough to withstand the insurgency yet. You're claim that you care so much for human life really hits a bump in the road here. You call for a pull-out, immediately, knowing that bloodshed will continue in a horrific fashion, but you justify it because at least now it's gonna have a result that you can forsee.
That forseen conclusion is seen by all, and it's exactly why it's worthwhile to stay; a totalitarian dictatorship that will dominate and rule the good people of Iraq with an iron fist atleast as brutal as Saddam's, if not worse. How is this the best solution, with regard to human life??
- Dan
Read my post closer...I said I did support war, but now I'm torn, but if I had to go one way or the other, I'd say get them out of their and let them have their civil war. Screw the Middle East and it's oil I say...they're barbaric for the most part.
1998 (2) - East Lansing & Auburn Hills; 2000 (2) - Tampa & Noblesville; 2003 (2) - Lexington & Noblesville; 2006 (1) - Cincinnati; 2007 (1) - Chicago (Lollapalooza); 2008 (Ed in Milwaukee); 2009 (1) - Chicago; 2010 (1) - Noblesville; 2013 (3) - San Diego & Los Angeles I & II; 2016 (Temple of the Dog in Los Angeles); 2017 (Ed at Ohana in Dana Point);
2021 (3) - Dana Point I, II & III; 2022 (3) - San Diego & Los Angeles I & II; 2025 - Southern U.S. Tour Please!
But do not equate them to the terrorists as if to say because a war is being fought, both sides are on the same level of decency. Open your eyes.
We bombed them from the air until they were blind, then drove our tanks through and assasinated the men defending their country.
not noble to me
Saddam's henchmen. Let's not try and garner sympathy here. We assasinated horrible, horrible people who have a laundry list of heinous crimes against humanity long enough to make you sick.
Remember the celebration in Baghdad? Remember the statue falling as children ran around with American & Iraqi flags and photos of the President? Remember US troops raising an Iraqi National Flag (not an American one) over the rubble of Saddam's memorial?
We were greeted as noble liberators. Obviously a lot has changed, and the blame falls squarely at the doorstep of the President, no question about it. The war has been mismanaged every step of the way since then, and henceforth, the sentiment towards us has as well.
But regardless of the administartions shortcomings, and they have been aplenty, the US military is still fighting a noble fight, under the harshest conditions and toughest scrutiny imaginable.
I mean seriously, you bring up air strikes, and removing Saddam's regime in response to all of the horrible behavior that has been well documented by the enemy, and then actually try to make the nobility arguement?
Apples and oranges in my eyes.
- Dan
So Saddam was president - anyone we kill was his henchman. Rather convenient for killers.
Wonder how our vocabulary would change had we called the events of September 11th Shock and Awe
Civilians killed in Iraq as a result of the coalition; avoided yet unintentionally will occur, yes.
September 11th; America was attacked by terrorists who intentionally attempted to kill as many innocent civilians as possible. If the could have made the day any more brutal you can bet they would have.
See the difference?
- Dan
Clinton Loyalists!
oh and I hadn't mentioned the civilians.. I was talking about the deliberately assasinated members of the Iraqi army.
Wow, so your statement is even worse than I originally thought, lol.
How many members of the armed service died on 9/11?
How about political leaders?
But somehow all those people are the same as an Iraqi President and his military personnel??
I know I must be missing something... help me out here.
- Dan
military personnel are not as important as the people that happened to be in the world trade center that day?
Oh, c'mon.
Look, without bring up the importance of one life vs. another, an innocent civilian going to work one random September day should not be the target. Someone who enlists in the military, wears the uniform, etc. is going to be the target. It's understood, it's a fact of war.
Being blown up going to work should not be a fact of life. Dying in a military conflict as a member of the military, while also tragic, is an understood fact of life.
- Dan
No.. did we behave as though it was tragic each bomb we dropped on a defenseless nation? No we did not!
We wait until now to casually agree that it was dumb to invade and the reasons were false
No because we continue to cause their deaths today and ack as though their desperate but feeble attempts to defend themselves are somehow horrible and below us.
No.
You keep saying "them" and "they" and try to spin it like you are talking about the people of Iraq, when you should accurately be referencing the small insurgency that is terrorizing those Iraqi people.
You also continue to ignore the incredible death toll that would have continued to exist under Saddam, as well as the death toll that would skyrocket upon a US withdrawl. As a prior poster chimed in, you really only care about them when an American unintentionally causes a civillian casualty. When they are terrorized by their own government, or by their own countrymen in barbaric and intentional fashion, you excuse it, or choose to ignore it.
It's the same old story, Bush is evil, America is evil, and these poor terrorists should be cut some slack because we provoke them to committ atrocities (sp?) against mankind.
- Dan
Stop by:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=14678777351&ref=mf
well you continue to dismiss all the horrible killing we have brought upon Iraq. You consider the military men we killed somehow a work related accident. Do you feel the same about the military men and women killed at Pearl Harbor?
I never said the poor terrorists. The people of Iraq are not terrorists. They are a defeated nation that are forgotten and left to live in lawlessness. The criminals are free to roam and kill because of the state we left that country in. We have installed a psudo government that can't lead or protect and we don't have any desire to protect the people - only the installed government.
What we have done and continue to do and not do in Iraq is terrorism as much as anything.
I also doubt the death toll can possibly skyrocket. they will have to establish rule - and there will be battles. But I'm betting the Iraqis, left to their own devices, will stablize. as of right now - they are only dying.