No Freedom of Religion in France?

MakingWaves

I found this story disturbing and wondered if there is more behind this or if this woman was denied citizenship based solely on her religion.

http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/paperchase/2008/07/france-denies-citizenship-to-muslim.php

fuck

France has always been a pretty racist country.

NMyTree

MakingWaves wrote:

I found this story disturbing and wondered if there is more behind this or if this woman was denied citizenship based solely on her religion.

http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/paperchase/2008/07/france-denies-citizenship-to-muslim.php

If you have been following what has been going on in France for the last 10...20 years, you would know the Muslims have brought this upon themselves.

France had been liberal, tolerant and accomadating to the Muslims. Then, they the Muslims got arrogant and self-righteous......took advantage of it and pushed, pushed, pushed and pushed some more.

They attempted to intimidate, threaten and bully the people of France and the French government; with no respect or consideration for their host country, their culture and the culture and people who are non-muslims. They the Muslims created a big mess.

France finally had enough of the bullshit and bully tactics and they announced some time ago that they were no longer going to be accomadating and tolerant of the tactics of Muslims (and Muslims themselves ) or any other fanatical religious group who would behave in that manner.

I say good for them! Respect is a two-way street. Muslims got plenty of it in France, for a very long time. They took advantage of it. If you go to a Muslim country, you are expected (through severe and sometimes deadly punishment) to respect their culture. Why should it be different when Muslims are in a non-Islamic country?

nobody

to provide some extra info: the woman stated in interviews with the relevant officials that she doesn't know what seperation between state and religion or the right to vote is, and that it is completely normal for her to live in total submission to men in her family. they then concluded she cleary doesn't live in accordance with the french constitution...

that being said: as always one should differentiate between Muslims and radical Islamists...to describe the Muslims in France as a whole as self-righteous bums who go against the French people is not appropriate...
it's right: integration is a two-way-process...and nobody can deny the hardships and marginalization people from the Maghreb had to go through in the beginning in France and the conditions they are still facing today...it's not that they are the kings of france or something...
yet, it is also out of line to conclude that France is just a racist country...it is a very secular country...which has recently been forced even more with strictly banning any obvious signs of religion from schools for example...like the veil for muslim girls AND the kippa for jewish boys...

m.

NMyTree

_outlaw wrote:

France has always been a pretty racist country.

No more than any other country and certainly a lot less than a lot of countries.

If you want to talk racism and discrimination, look no further than many of the Middle East countries. It rarely gets more vile and violent than those; when it comes to discrimination and racism. Maybe equally vile and violent in some places, but not more than.

fuck

NMyTree wrote:

If you have been following what has been going on in France for the last 10...20 years, you would know the Muslims have brought this upon themselves.

...

Should I even take this seriously? This is an incredibly racist comment...

and yeah yeah, muslims aren't a "race", you know what I mean...

fuck

NMyTree wrote:

If you want to talk racism and discrimination, look no further than many of the Middle East countries. It rarely gets more vile and violent than those; when it comes to discrimination and racism. Maybe equally vile and violent in some places, but not more than.

This is pure, utter nonsense. You have nothing to back you up other than artificial facts. I'm trying to be as unoffensive as possible, but it's hard when reading something like this.

NMyTree

nobody wrote:

that being said: as always one should differentiate between Muslims and radical Islamists...to describe the Muslims in France as a whole as self-righteous bums who go against the French people is not appropriate...
it's right: integration is a two-way-process...and nobody can deny the hardships and marginalization people from the Maghreb had to go through in the beginning in France and the conditions they are still facing today...it's not that they are the kings of france or something...
yet, it is also out of line to conclude that France is just a racist country...it is a very secular country...which has recently been forced even more with strictly banning any obvious signs of religion from schools for example...like the veil for muslim girls AND the kippa for jewish boys....

Why do you people always require a preface with a disclaimer, before every fuckin' sentence? Or some kind of overly-Politically Correct disclaimer after every comment; in order to comprehend that I'm talking about the Muslims who were creating problems and behaving that way. Obviously not every individual Muslim was part of the problem. my comments do not apply to them, because ....they were not involved.

My comments addressed the Muslims who were. And they were many. This was NOT just a small fringe group of Muslims. This was wide spread. They created a mess and they definitely were behaving and doing what I said in my post.

You see, I speak in terms of directing my comments to those involved. Not every single individual. No need for a disclaimer.

It's the overly-defensive and overly-Politically Correct who are always looking and nit-picking every single word or statement for swooping generalizations and stereotyping. Rather than address and focus on the ones who were behaving badly. Which in my opinion always comes off as an attempt to re-direct the subject matter and turn a blind-eye to the issue at hand.

Let's argue about sterotypes and generalizations, rather than focusing on the bad behavior and trouble created by the Muslims in question:rolleyes:

fuck

nobody wrote:

to provide some extra info: the woman stated in interviews with the relevant officials that she doesn't know what seperation between state and religion or the right to vote is, and that it is completely normal for her to live in total submission to men in her family. they then concluded she cleary doesn't live in accordance with the french constitution...

...yeah, but how does that make any sense? I'm not sure about these statements that she allegedly made, nor have I read anything like it, but even if it's true, why should someone be denied citizenship for something like this? She comes from a different culture so she can't learn things like separation between church and state (which is irrelevant anyway as she's not even a politician or an activist), and the right to vote? If they want, they could teach her about these things.

that being said: as always one should differentiate between Muslims and radical Islamists...to describe the Muslims in France as a whole as self-righteous bums who go against the French people is not appropriate...

The "radical Islamists" make up such a small percentage in the entire world when compared to the actual amount of Muslims... if someone can talk about 1 Billion+ people in the world as if they are all terrorists and "deserve" things like this, then it makes absolute no sense. There are nearly 4.5mil muslims in France... they all deserve things like this?

yet, it is also out of line to conclude that France is just a racist country...it is a very secular country...which has recently been forced even more with strictly banning any obvious signs of religion from schools for example...like the veil for muslim girls AND the kippa for jewish boys...

France has shown racism throughout its history to many different races and religions... this case is no different.

NMyTree

_outlaw wrote:

...

Should I even take this seriously? This is an incredibly racist comment...

and yeah yeah, muslims aren't a "race", you know what I mean...

I'm sure everything is a racist comment, to you. I'm sure you can break down every sentence, every sentence concept and subject matter; and find something racist in it.

And I'm damn glad and proud that I am NOT like you!

fuck

NMyTree wrote:

I'm sure everything is a racist comment, to you. I'm sure you can break down every sentence, every sentence concept and subject matter; and find something racist in it.

And I'm damn glad and proud that I am NOT like you!

ok.

NMyTree

_outlaw wrote:

This is pure, utter nonsense. You have nothing to back you up other than artificial facts. I'm trying to be as unoffensive as possible, but it's hard when reading something like this.

Yeah okay. Go ahead an live in your ideal and all-loving Middle East country fantasy. Have fun.



Oh please, don't be offensive.....I may cry. LOL!

nobody

NMyTree wrote:

Why do you people always require a preface with a disclaimer, before every fuckin' sentence? Or some kind of overly-Politically Correct disclaimer after every comment; in order to comprehend that I'm talking about the Muslims who were creating problems and behaving that way. Obviously not every individual Muslim was part of the problem. my comments do not apply to them, because ....they were not involved.

My comments addressed the Muslims who were. And they were many. This was NOT just a small fringe group of Muslims. This was wide spread. They created a mess and they definitely were behaving and doing what I said in my post.

You see, I speak in terms of directing my comments to those involved. Not every single individual. No need for a disclaimer.

It's the overly-defensive and overly-Politically Correct who are always looking and nit-picking every single word or statement for swooping generalizations and stereotyping. Rather than address and focus on the ones who were behaving badly. Which in my opinion always comes off as an attempt to re-direct the subject matter and turn a blind-eye to the issue at hand.

Let's argue about sterotypes and generalizations, rather than focusing on the bad behavior and trouble created by the Muslims in question:rolleyes:

well, I'm allergic to people convicting groups of whatever form as a whole...

and as the first part of my post that you didn't quote illustrates I was giving some additional factual info that shows the actions of the france state in a less drastic light...it provided some facts that might lead one to conclude that France isn't deciding solely on the base of religion but overall attitude towards the state(liberal democratic order)...something that most countries take into account before granting citizenship...
I hope you find more use in this particular post now...

you all seem so edgy here, man...after 4 or 5 post SOMEbody will always start to rave...

m.

NMyTree

_outlaw wrote:

This is pure, utter nonsense. You have nothing to back you up other than artificial facts. I'm trying to be as unoffensive as possible, but it's hard when reading something like this.

Furthermore, I don't believe you truely comprehend the definition of racism; nor do comprehend what my wrods, sentence and point of what I said.

But that's okay, because I have nothing to back it up. Next thing you know, he/she will be demanding " a link" to support my comments:D:D

nobody

_outlaw wrote:

...yeah, but how does that make any sense? I'm not sure about these statements that she allegedly made, nor have I read anything like it, but even if it's true, why should someone be denied citizenship for something like this? She comes from a different culture so she can't learn things like separation between church and state (which is irrelevant anyway as she's not even a politician or an activist), and the right to vote? If they want, they could teach her about these things.

the source was a german paper so I didn't give the link. also the article claimed that she started wearing the burka only when she came to France and because her husband wished so...so I wonder if she will be able to learn about the other things so easily...

the seperation between church and state is a major issue in France. you can like it or not, but many european countries settled with a policy that checks if people go in accordance with the constition of the respective country...this woman obviously doesn't have a clue, so she is not granted citizenship...I don't know the details of this case, so I'm not making a judgement. I just wanted to provide some info which wasn't as one-sided "there's no Freedom of religion in France" as the first link...

The "radical Islamists" make up such a small percentage in the entire world when compared to the actual amount of Muslims... if someone can talk about 1 Billion+ people in the world as if they are all terrorists and "deserve" things like this, then it makes absolute no sense. There are nearly 4.5mil muslims in France... they all deserve things like this?

well, I said the same thing you did, basically...was this a misunderstanding?

France has shown racism throughout its history to many different races and religions... this case is no different.

casting a definite judgement here after a 20line webarticle is a bit hasty...

m.

NMyTree

nobody wrote:

well, I'm allergic to people convicting groups of whatever form as a whole...

and as the first part of my post that you didn't quote illustrates I was giving some additional factual info that shows the actions of the france state in a less drastic light...it provided some facts that might lead one to conclude that France isn't deciding solely on the base of religion but overall attitude towards the state(liberal democratic order)...something that most countries take into account before granting citizenship...
I hope you find more use in this particular post now...

you all seem so edgy here, man...after 4 or 5 post SOMEbody will always start to rave...

m.

I completely understood the first part of your post and explanation. But I already knew that.

And it is based on religion because that woman was born, raised and conditioned in a country that uses Religious text as their guide to governing, dictating and controling their social, political and financial structures.

So while it's clear the woman would have a very difficult time intergrating to the France culture, social and financial strutures and would be incapable of self-reliance for quite some time. It is also clear that the religious element in her country of birth, is the main reason she is that way.

nobody

NMyTree wrote:

I completely understood the first part of your post and explanation. But I already knew that.

And it is based on religion because that woman was born, raised and conditioned in a country that uses Religious text as their guide to governing, dictating and controling their social, political and financial structures.

So while it's clear the woman would have a very difficult time intergrating to the France culture, social and financial strutures and would be incapable of self-reliance for quite some time. It is also clear that the religious element in her country of birth, is the main reason she is that way.

she started wearing a burka only after she went to France...
but no doubt, part of her mindset was conditioned in her home country
yet Morroco, isn't an all fundamentelist country from all I know...

m.

fuck

nobody wrote:

the source was a german paper so I didn't give the link. also the article claimed that she started wearing the burka only when she came to France and because her husband wished so...so I wonder if she will be able to learn about the other things so easily...

the seperation between church and state is a major issue in France. you can like it or not, but many european countries settled with a policy that checks if people go in accordance with the constition of the respective country...this woman obviously doesn't have a clue, so she is not granted citizenship...I don't know the details of this case, so I'm not making a judgement. I just wanted to provide some info which wasn't as one-sided "there's no Freedom of religion in France" as the first link...

learn about the other things? it's pretty simple... and like I said before, why should it matter if she's not a politician or an activist...?

well, I said the same thing you did, basically...was this a misunderstanding?

No, I was agreeing with you.

casting a definite judgement here after a 20line webarticle is a bit hasty...

m.

My point was that they've been long known to make racist judgments... once again, this case was probably no different.

NMyTree

_outlaw wrote:

...The "radical Islamists" make up such a small percentage in the entire world when compared to the actual amount of Muslims... if someone can talk about 1 Billion+ people in the world as if they are all terrorists and "deserve" things like this, then it makes absolute no sense. There are nearly 4.5mil muslims in France... they all deserve things like this?


France has shown racism throughout its history to many different races and religions... this case is no different.

Man, you're a piece of work. You got your panties all in a knot over your misguided perception of my "generalizing" Muslims. But you continue to stereotype and label France in one swooping brush, as racist.

Got news for you, many Muslims and predominantly Muslim countries are indeed very racist and discriminatory. That's both historical and current fact.

But don't let facts interfere with your biased agenda.

puremagic

How is a person wearing a burka different from a nun or priest, including buddhist priest wearing robes and collars?

How is a person wearing a burka different from a person who wears a cross or women who have to put a red dot on their forehead.

Isn't religion part of a person's culture? Without more details of what the french didn't like about her values its hard to understand why she was denied citizenship.

The other reason was failure to assimilate. Why is there a chinatown in most major cities, including Paris, doesn't that fall under failure to assimilate?

fuck

NMyTree wrote:

Man, you're a piece of work. You got your panties all in a knot over your misguided perception of my "generalizing" Muslims. But you continue to stereotype and label France in one swooping brush, as racist.

I'm talking about their government, and it's so painfully obvious that I'm talking about their government and not their people... so there's no stereotypes or anything here going on...

Got news for you, many Muslims and predominantly Muslim countries are indeed very racist and discriminatory. That's both historical and current fact.

But don't let facts interfere with your biased agenda.

You don't have facts or news for me at all actually. Just some statements that you refuse to back with actual PROOF. Not only that, but I was talking about the Muslim religion which you so easily talk offensively about.

I really don't like debating with people like you, so I'm going to just stop responding to you.