Who said anything about free will, after all were just stimulus response...right?
We are, but most people believe that we have free-will and the two perspectives are incompatible. It's useless to explain actions in the way of experimental data when free-will is an unsurpassable hurdle towards any such conclusions.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
To play all Nazi's off as souless devils is wrong. Throughout history people have followed many bad ideas. Often claiming they were acting threw god even. Not to compare the US with Nazi's, but some people would claim right now that people are blindly following the US and their war mongering polices, while standing firmly behind the christian God as a guidance. Also if you want to look at the psychology of Obedience look at Stanley Milgram's famous experiment. His results completly surprised himself, and these werent bad people, what we do under social pressures is amazing.
True. My example of Nazism was just that, however...an example.
And I do see it as epitomising the 20th Century. It's the most significant event to have occured in our recent past, and it's reverberations are still felt today, and should continue to be for a long time hence.
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
I don't think it was meant to be funny. But rather illustrative. Lemmings will follow one another to death simply because that is what everyone else is doing. No rhyme, no reason...just conformance.
"When you're climbing to the top, you'd better know the way back down" MSB
What he was saying was that just before blacks were granted their civil rights, the majority of Americans were against granting them their rights. 13% of the American population were for granting basic civil rights to black people and 87% were against it, yet those shifty blacks were granted their rights anyway. Life is so unfair sometimes.
Also: aren't the majority of Americans for withdrawing the troops from Iraq? I guess we should be expect them back by Christmas? I'll hang the stockings.
Yes and those same Americans were all for sending the troops to fight the horrible terrorists in Iraq when the Government first told them they should. Now the media is telling them otherwise so they are jumping band wagons. Wishy washy conformists.
"When you're climbing to the top, you'd better know the way back down" MSB
I often wonder about people I meet, and those who I know well, if they would have been Nazis if they had just so happened to have been born in a different milieu, and in a different time.
It's just that I've met countless people over the years who have appeared to me to be lacking in a certain fundamental quality of character, or soul, and which makes them glaringly susceptible to the malevolent influences of authority - in most any shape or form. I often find myself pondering how they would have behaved in 1930's Berlin. Would they have resisted, or rebelled? Would they have helped the Jews? Would they have become state sanctioned mass-murderers?
More often than not, I decide that they would have been only too willing to smash the skulls of innocents, if it meant they'd be promoted, and applauded by their peers.
I mean, take your average jobs-worth. Someone who bows down to authority at every available opportunity, and revels in the tiny amount of power that he/she has been given in the workplace, to the point where their better nature becomes secondary to their job prospects - most jobs-worths I've met have tended to lack even a modicum of soul, or character, or sex. And quite frankly, these people tend, in my experience, to be in the majority. Would someone like this have had the strength of character, and decency of intent to have resisted the forces of indoctrination and prejudice that were prevalent within the central cog of 20th Century fascism?
I doubt it.
I sometimes look around me and think 'How many people here possess that ingredient that would have set them apart from the murderers? Just because they happen to be in a different place, and a different time, what, if anything, makes them any different from those people who fell under the spell of propaganda and indoctrination in the 1930's, to the point that they became willing executioners?'
Ditto
A restaurant with a smoking section is like a swimming pool with a pissing section
Yes and those same Americans were all for sending the troops to fight the horrible terrorists in Iraq when the Government first told them they should. Now the media is telling them otherwise so they are jumping band wagons. Wishy washy conformists.
Is it not true that the American people were told by the gov't that Iraq harbored weapons of mass destruction? Then, is it not true that it was determined that Iraq did NOT have such weapons? Now here we are several years later involved in a war with no apparent resolution. I think it is pretty clear why those that might have supported the effort in the beginning might not now.
The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
Is it not true that the American people were told by the gov't that Iraq harbored weapons of mass destruction? Then, is it not true that it was determined that Iraq did NOT have such weapons? Now here we are several years later involved in a war with no apparent resolution. I think it is pretty clear why those that might have supported the effort in the beginning might not now.
I have to disagree. There were plenty of people opposing the war at the beginning. People were opposing it based on legality, proof of the WMD, US foreign policy and it's history in Iraq, Iraq's lack of ties to terror, the obvious conflicts of interest with big oil and the Bush admin....the truth was out there all along. But a lot of people were still bloodthirsty, or doing in-depth personal investigations based on the evening news. The people that supported it at first are/were lemmings.
Yes and those same Americans were all for sending the troops to fight the horrible terrorists in Iraq when the Government first told them they should. Now the media is telling them otherwise so they are jumping band wagons. Wishy washy conformists.
i would call them sensible people who are better informed and refine their beliefs accordingly, even if it means admitting they are wrong.
Something I doubt most of the elitist intellectuals on this board would ever do.
Most people will conform in some way or another, but before you pat yourselves on the back for being such independent renegades, check to see if you aren't a sheep with a different sheopard, or worse, someone who automatically thinks and does the opposite of what most people do regardless of what logic dictates. Black sheep are still sheep.
I have to disagree. There were plenty of people opposing the war at the beginning. People were opposing it based on legality, proof of the WMD, US foreign policy and it's history in Iraq, Iraq's lack of ties to terror, the obvious conflicts of interest with big oil and the Bush admin....the truth was out there all along. But a lot of people were still bloodthirsty, or doing in-depth personal investigations based on the evening news. The people that supported it at first are/were lemmings.
Yes, there were many that did not support the war at first, I was one of them for the very reasons you stated. But there are many now that DID support the war at the start, but now do not. I think that is a step in the right direction. I suppose I don't really want to point fingers and call those that want to end it now lemmings for being misguided before, I think the goal it to get ever more on 'our side'. Unfortunately, there are still many who blindly follow the current administration and accept whatever that comes from that camp.
The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
....check to see if you aren't a sheep with a different sheopard, or worse, someone who automatically thinks and does the opposite of what most people do regardless of what logic dictates. Black sheep are still sheep.
Is it not true that the American people were told by the gov't that Iraq harbored weapons of mass destruction? Then, is it not true that it was determined that Iraq did NOT have such weapons? Now here we are several years later involved in a war with no apparent resolution. I think it is pretty clear why those that might have supported the effort in the beginning might not now.
don't the mass graves and biologicals used to kill these people prove that iraq HAD WMD? the fact that they used them doesn't alter the fact that they HAD them.
and in case you haven't noticed; plane bombings in europe are way down as compared to the last decade. so are other types of terrorist attacks. the attempted attacks have been foiled too.
have you also noticed that those opposed now are doing it to gain votes?
don't the mass graves and biologicals used to kill these people prove that iraq HAD WMD? the fact that they used them doesn't alter the fact that they HAD them.
and in case you haven't noticed; plane bombings in europe are way down as compared to the last decade. so are other types of terrorist attacks. the attempted attacks have been foiled too.
have you also noticed that those opposed now are doing it to gain votes?
that really doesn't answer the question. sure; we can expect terrorist attacks in iraq to increase 9 times; it will probably grow higher. we are fighting insurgents who are orchestrating these attacks. if you read your link further; the official deffinition allows domestic incidents to be included. ie: another columbine would be considered a terrorist attack; as would oklahoma city; and the canadian school shooting.
i was referring to taliban attacks in europe.
that really doesn't answer the question. sure; we can expect terrorist attacks in iraq to increase 9 times; it will probably grow higher. we are fighting insurgents who are orchestrating these attacks. if you read your link further; the official deffinition allows domestic incidents to be included. ie: another columbine would be considered a terrorist attack; as would oklahoma city; and the canadian school shooting.
i was referring to taliban attacks in europe.
I wasnt aware of attacks by the Taliban in Europe. I apologize - I guess I dont know as much about terrorism as I thought I did.
The way I see it... most of us would have fallen on the side of the Nazis... IF... we were German... and we were living in those times.
The German people were convinced by their leaders... through fear and ignorance... that the Jewish (and slavic) scourge was responsible for Germany's decline. We see this today with educated Americans believing all of this terrorism bullshit. How easy was it to convince educated, God-fearing Americans to follow the drumbeats to war? The same principles applied today, as in 1936.
The Nazis brought prosperity and self respect back to a defeated Germany. They were convinced that the Jews were the problem. In doing so.. it was okay to rid their nation of this disease... almost the same way Americans that feel torture is okay because it is for the better good of our country.
Of course... I am not saying Americans are Nazis... more like, Americans are like Germans and can fall under the spell of whatever the leadership wants. The thing we are supposed to recognize is the lesson that Nazi Germany taught us. Just because your leaders are doing good things for you.. does NOT make them good.
...
and I am sad to say... that I think most of us... who'd like to think we'd risk our own lives to save a little Jewish girl by hiding her in our attics... would have, more than likely, turned her ass over to those men in the uniforms that represented our nation.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
I wasnt aware of attacks by the Taliban in Europe. I apologize - I guess I dont know as much about terrorism as I thought I did.
the taliban claimed responsability for several plane bombings and terrorist actions in the last decade. i haven't heard about any after 9/11; but as your links pointed out; information was not being released by the government so clearly, i couldn't be aware of them. based on that; i could be completely wrong.
the taliban claimed responsability for several plane bombings and terrorist actions in the last decade. i haven't heard about any after 9/11; but as your links pointed out; information was not being released by the government so clearly, i couldn't be aware of them. based on that; i could be completely wrong.
...
The Taliban... or al Qaeda? There's a difference, you know?
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
don't the mass graves and biologicals used to kill these people prove that iraq HAD WMD? the fact that they used them doesn't alter the fact that they HAD them.
and in case you haven't noticed; plane bombings in europe are way down as compared to the last decade. so are other types of terrorist attacks. the attempted attacks have been foiled too.
have you also noticed that those opposed now are doing it to gain votes?
Iraq had had WMD's in the past but not at the time of the invasion. So the reasons for going into the war are false.
We used WMDs against the Iraqi people in the kuwait war and have killed far more innocent people since 1991 with our sanctions than Saddam ever killed with his chemical wepons.
Keep on rockin in the free world!!!!
The economy has polarized to the point where the wealthiest 10% now own 85% of the nation’s wealth. Never before have the bottom 90% been so highly indebted, so dependent on the wealthy.
I often wonder about people I meet, and those who I know well, if they would have been Nazis if they had just so happened to have been born in a different milieu, and in a different time.
It's just that I've met countless people over the years who have appeared to me to be lacking in a certain fundamental quality of character, or soul, and which makes them glaringly susceptible to the malevolent influences of authority - in most any shape or form. I often find myself pondering how they would have behaved in 1930's Berlin. Would they have resisted, or rebelled? Would they have helped the Jews? Would they have become state sanctioned mass-murderers?
More often than not, I decide that they would have been only too willing to smash the skulls of innocents, if it meant they'd be promoted, and applauded by their peers.
I mean, take your average jobs-worth. Someone who bows down to authority at every available opportunity, and revels in the tiny amount of power that he/she has been given in the workplace, to the point where their better nature becomes secondary to their job prospects - most jobs-worths I've met have tended to lack even a modicum of soul, or character, or sex. And quite frankly, these people tend, in my experience, to be in the majority. Would someone like this have had the strength of character, and decency of intent to have resisted the forces of indoctrination and prejudice that were prevalent within the central cog of 20th Century fascism?
I doubt it.
I sometimes look around me and think 'How many people here possess that ingredient that would have set them apart from the murderers? Just because they happen to be in a different place, and a different time, what, if anything, makes them any different from those people who fell under the spell of propaganda and indoctrination in the 1930's, to the point that they became willing executioners?'
I'm Austrian, so for most of my life I was asking myself when I met certain people not if they could have been but if they were Nazis back in the 1930s and 40s. I tried to ask my grandmother what she was doing during WWII and never got an answer. Since she got married to Mr. tall, dark and handsome with an Albanian last name and gave birth to his mini-me (my father) during the war I guess she wasn't actively involved in anything but knowing her, she probably kept her mouth shut and 'smiled and waved'.
Her husband was an iron-worker, so he wasn't drafted per se but had to manufacture ammunition (and died 5 years after the war ended as a result of that job). My other grandfather was drafted and deserted when he was about to be sent to Poland to kill his own people - he was half Polish. I never met him because he only survived the war physically and my mother didn't want us to be around someone who still thought of everyone as an enemy.
Provided I would have been the same person I am now in this day and age, I would have been dead in no time. I can't keep my mouth shut when something unjust happens and depending on my hypothetical age would have been either clumsily idealistic and therefore dead pretty quickly or if being the same age I am right now probably had a bit longer to live but would definitely be involved in the resistance movement.
I do not condemn the generation of my grandparents as a whole though because I wasn't there, so who am I to judge? Who knows what any of us would do to keep their family alive? I can only hope that things don't ever become that bad again in terms of economy/poverty that as many people as back then follow the first self-appointed messiah as blindly and countless times before that unemployed painter came along and pointed out who was - in his eyes - responsible for the state of the economy.
As for your question if people you know could have been Nazis: I think everyone of us knows someone who's susceptible to such ideas and theories if they feel someone speaks for them and in some cases they even might be people you'd have never thought would be. Sadyl, there always will be the danger of a repeat performance.
You can tell a man from what he has to say - Neil & Tim Finn
They love you so badly for sharing their sorrow, so pick up that guitar and go break a heart - Kris Kristofferson
Reading some of the posts on the recent batch of Israel/Palestine threads reminded me of this thread. It seems glaringly obvious to me that anyone who knowingly and actively supports the crime against humanity that is the ongoing occupation in the Middle East would have been equally susceptible to Nazi propaganda in the 1930's, if they'd but only been in the right place at the right time - or the wrong place at the wrong time, depending on how you look at it.
In the words of Michael Neumann:
'...no one should be deterred from vigorous anti-Israeli action by the horrors of the Jewish past. On the contrary: Israel's current policies are themselves an insult and a threat to Jews and to Israeli's everywhere. Concern for the past requires a quite different attitude. When it comes to the lessons of history, we can do no better than to heed the words of Irena Klepfz, who was born in Warsaw in 1941 and whose father died a hero in the Warsaw uprising:
"Am I to feel better that the Palestinians...were not shot by the Israelis but merely beaten? As long as hundreds of Palestinians are not being lined up and shot, but are killed by Israelis only one a day, are we Jews free from worrying about morality, justice? Has Nazism become the sole norm by which to judge evil, so that anything that is not it's exact duplicate is considered by us morally acceptable? Is that what the Holocaust has done to Jewish moral sensibility?"
Let no one throw up the Nazi era as some excuse for Israel, or wax sentimental about the Zionist dream....The situation is urgent, and dangerous to all involved. The lies, obfuscations, and self-deceiving nonsense that sustain Israel's occupation - something it could end tomorrow - cost Jewish as well as Palestinian blood.'
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
The way I see it... most of us would have fallen on the side of the Nazis... IF... we were German... and we were living in those times.
The German people were convinced by their leaders... through fear and ignorance... that the Jewish (and slavic) scourge was responsible for Germany's decline. We see this today with educated Americans believing all of this terrorism bullshit. How easy was it to convince educated, God-fearing Americans to follow the drumbeats to war? The same principles applied today, as in 1936.
The Nazis brought prosperity and self respect back to a defeated Germany. They were convinced that the Jews were the problem. In doing so.. it was okay to rid their nation of this disease... almost the same way Americans that feel torture is okay because it is for the better good of our country.
Of course... I am not saying Americans are Nazis... more like, Americans are like Germans and can fall under the spell of whatever the leadership wants. The thing we are supposed to recognize is the lesson that Nazi Germany taught us. Just because your leaders are doing good things for you.. does NOT make them good.
...
and I am sad to say... that I think most of us... who'd like to think we'd risk our own lives to save a little Jewish girl by hiding her in our attics... would have, more than likely, turned her ass over to those men in the uniforms that represented our nation.
I'd say you're right. I'm pretty sure that there was a point in my life when I would have been just as susceptible as anyone else to the bullshit indoctrination.
Though It only takes one book, or one idea, or one feeling to set you on a different trajectory. (Or maybe it's a combination of things?) I can't say for sure when that happened for me, but it's back there somewhere.
good thread byrnzie... I've often thought about stuff like this... not regarding nazis (but good analogy nonetheless) but if a revolution were necessary how many people would actually fight? How many would put their money where their mouth is and shut their government down? Are there any heros left anywhere? I suppose a hero is just an ordinary person in an extraordinary situation but none of us really know how we'd react to ANYTHING unless we were in that situation :(
The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
Please, look at all the people that bought Bill Clinton's BS. You can fool a lot of the people most of the time. That man wouldn't know the truth if Richard Nixon handed it to him.
"If you're not living on the edge you're taking up too much room."
Gambling=a taxation on stupidity.
Remember, you can walk anywhere, as long as you have the time.
I'd say you're right. I'm pretty sure that there was a point in my life when I would have been just as susceptible as anyone else to the bullshit indoctrination.
Though It only takes one book, or one idea, or one feeling to set you on a different trajectory. (Or maybe it's a combination of things?) I can't say for sure when that happened for me, but it's back there somewhere.
i am strong enough in my conviction that i can say i would never have followed blindly the ideology of the nazi regime.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Please, look at all the people that bought Bill Clinton's BS. You can fool a lot of the people most of the time. That man wouldn't know the truth if Richard Nixon handed it to him.
Comments
We are, but most people believe that we have free-will and the two perspectives are incompatible. It's useless to explain actions in the way of experimental data when free-will is an unsurpassable hurdle towards any such conclusions.
True. My example of Nazism was just that, however...an example.
And I do see it as epitomising the 20th Century. It's the most significant event to have occured in our recent past, and it's reverberations are still felt today, and should continue to be for a long time hence.
http://img403.imageshack.us/my.php?image=49927687vf7.jpg
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
Ditto
Is it not true that the American people were told by the gov't that Iraq harbored weapons of mass destruction? Then, is it not true that it was determined that Iraq did NOT have such weapons? Now here we are several years later involved in a war with no apparent resolution. I think it is pretty clear why those that might have supported the effort in the beginning might not now.
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
i would call them sensible people who are better informed and refine their beliefs accordingly, even if it means admitting they are wrong.
Something I doubt most of the elitist intellectuals on this board would ever do.
Most people will conform in some way or another, but before you pat yourselves on the back for being such independent renegades, check to see if you aren't a sheep with a different sheopard, or worse, someone who automatically thinks and does the opposite of what most people do regardless of what logic dictates. Black sheep are still sheep.
Yes, there were many that did not support the war at first, I was one of them for the very reasons you stated. But there are many now that DID support the war at the start, but now do not. I think that is a step in the right direction. I suppose I don't really want to point fingers and call those that want to end it now lemmings for being misguided before, I think the goal it to get ever more on 'our side'. Unfortunately, there are still many who blindly follow the current administration and accept whatever that comes from that camp.
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
Thank you! That was very funny and so very true!
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
don't the mass graves and biologicals used to kill these people prove that iraq HAD WMD? the fact that they used them doesn't alter the fact that they HAD them.
and in case you haven't noticed; plane bombings in europe are way down as compared to the last decade. so are other types of terrorist attacks. the attempted attacks have been foiled too.
have you also noticed that those opposed now are doing it to gain votes?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/04/26/AR2005042601623.html
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,269276,00.html
http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadline/2007/04/terror_attacks_.html
that really doesn't answer the question. sure; we can expect terrorist attacks in iraq to increase 9 times; it will probably grow higher. we are fighting insurgents who are orchestrating these attacks. if you read your link further; the official deffinition allows domestic incidents to be included. ie: another columbine would be considered a terrorist attack; as would oklahoma city; and the canadian school shooting.
i was referring to taliban attacks in europe.
I wasnt aware of attacks by the Taliban in Europe. I apologize - I guess I dont know as much about terrorism as I thought I did.
The German people were convinced by their leaders... through fear and ignorance... that the Jewish (and slavic) scourge was responsible for Germany's decline. We see this today with educated Americans believing all of this terrorism bullshit. How easy was it to convince educated, God-fearing Americans to follow the drumbeats to war? The same principles applied today, as in 1936.
The Nazis brought prosperity and self respect back to a defeated Germany. They were convinced that the Jews were the problem. In doing so.. it was okay to rid their nation of this disease... almost the same way Americans that feel torture is okay because it is for the better good of our country.
Of course... I am not saying Americans are Nazis... more like, Americans are like Germans and can fall under the spell of whatever the leadership wants. The thing we are supposed to recognize is the lesson that Nazi Germany taught us. Just because your leaders are doing good things for you.. does NOT make them good.
...
and I am sad to say... that I think most of us... who'd like to think we'd risk our own lives to save a little Jewish girl by hiding her in our attics... would have, more than likely, turned her ass over to those men in the uniforms that represented our nation.
Hail, Hail!!!
the taliban claimed responsability for several plane bombings and terrorist actions in the last decade. i haven't heard about any after 9/11; but as your links pointed out; information was not being released by the government so clearly, i couldn't be aware of them. based on that; i could be completely wrong.
The Taliban... or al Qaeda? There's a difference, you know?
Hail, Hail!!!
Iraq had had WMD's in the past but not at the time of the invasion. So the reasons for going into the war are false.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,977916,00.html
We used WMDs against the Iraqi people in the kuwait war and have killed far more innocent people since 1991 with our sanctions than Saddam ever killed with his chemical wepons.
The economy has polarized to the point where the wealthiest 10% now own 85% of the nation’s wealth. Never before have the bottom 90% been so highly indebted, so dependent on the wealthy.
I'm Austrian, so for most of my life I was asking myself when I met certain people not if they could have been but if they were Nazis back in the 1930s and 40s. I tried to ask my grandmother what she was doing during WWII and never got an answer. Since she got married to Mr. tall, dark and handsome with an Albanian last name and gave birth to his mini-me (my father) during the war I guess she wasn't actively involved in anything but knowing her, she probably kept her mouth shut and 'smiled and waved'.
Her husband was an iron-worker, so he wasn't drafted per se but had to manufacture ammunition (and died 5 years after the war ended as a result of that job). My other grandfather was drafted and deserted when he was about to be sent to Poland to kill his own people - he was half Polish. I never met him because he only survived the war physically and my mother didn't want us to be around someone who still thought of everyone as an enemy.
Provided I would have been the same person I am now in this day and age, I would have been dead in no time. I can't keep my mouth shut when something unjust happens and depending on my hypothetical age would have been either clumsily idealistic and therefore dead pretty quickly or if being the same age I am right now probably had a bit longer to live but would definitely be involved in the resistance movement.
I do not condemn the generation of my grandparents as a whole though because I wasn't there, so who am I to judge? Who knows what any of us would do to keep their family alive? I can only hope that things don't ever become that bad again in terms of economy/poverty that as many people as back then follow the first self-appointed messiah as blindly and countless times before that unemployed painter came along and pointed out who was - in his eyes - responsible for the state of the economy.
As for your question if people you know could have been Nazis: I think everyone of us knows someone who's susceptible to such ideas and theories if they feel someone speaks for them and in some cases they even might be people you'd have never thought would be. Sadyl, there always will be the danger of a repeat performance.
They love you so badly for sharing their sorrow, so pick up that guitar and go break a heart - Kris Kristofferson
In the words of Michael Neumann:
'...no one should be deterred from vigorous anti-Israeli action by the horrors of the Jewish past. On the contrary: Israel's current policies are themselves an insult and a threat to Jews and to Israeli's everywhere. Concern for the past requires a quite different attitude. When it comes to the lessons of history, we can do no better than to heed the words of Irena Klepfz, who was born in Warsaw in 1941 and whose father died a hero in the Warsaw uprising:
"Am I to feel better that the Palestinians...were not shot by the Israelis but merely beaten? As long as hundreds of Palestinians are not being lined up and shot, but are killed by Israelis only one a day, are we Jews free from worrying about morality, justice? Has Nazism become the sole norm by which to judge evil, so that anything that is not it's exact duplicate is considered by us morally acceptable? Is that what the Holocaust has done to Jewish moral sensibility?"
Let no one throw up the Nazi era as some excuse for Israel, or wax sentimental about the Zionist dream....The situation is urgent, and dangerous to all involved. The lies, obfuscations, and self-deceiving nonsense that sustain Israel's occupation - something it could end tomorrow - cost Jewish as well as Palestinian blood.'
Hitler 2008!
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
I'd say you're right. I'm pretty sure that there was a point in my life when I would have been just as susceptible as anyone else to the bullshit indoctrination.
Though It only takes one book, or one idea, or one feeling to set you on a different trajectory. (Or maybe it's a combination of things?) I can't say for sure when that happened for me, but it's back there somewhere.
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
Gambling=a taxation on stupidity.
Remember, you can walk anywhere, as long as you have the time.
http://www.ryanmontbleauband.com/
http://www.myspace.com/jessedee
i am strong enough in my conviction that i can say i would never have followed blindly the ideology of the nazi regime.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
True.