Swastika eyes

Byrnzie

I often wonder about people I meet, and those who I know well, if they would have been Nazis if they had just so happened to have been born in a different milieu, and in a different time.

It's just that I've met countless people over the years who have appeared to me to be lacking in a certain fundamental quality of character, or soul, and which makes them glaringly susceptible to the malevolent influences of authority - in most any shape or form. I often find myself pondering how they would have behaved in 1930's Berlin. Would they have resisted, or rebelled? Would they have helped the Jews? Would they have become state sanctioned mass-murderers?
More often than not, I decide that they would have been only too willing to smash the skulls of innocents, if it meant they'd be promoted, and applauded by their peers.
I mean, take your average jobs-worth. Someone who bows down to authority at every available opportunity, and revels in the tiny amount of power that he/she has been given in the workplace, to the point where their better nature becomes secondary to their job prospects - most jobs-worths I've met have tended to lack even a modicum of soul, or character, or sex. And quite frankly, these people tend, in my experience, to be in the majority. Would someone like this have had the strength of character, and decency of intent to have resisted the forces of indoctrination and prejudice that were prevalent within the central cog of 20th Century fascism?
I doubt it.

I sometimes look around me and think 'How many people here possess that ingredient that would have set them apart from the murderers? Just because they happen to be in a different place, and a different time, what, if anything, makes them any different from those people who fell under the spell of propaganda and indoctrination in the 1930's, to the point that they became willing executioners?'

even flow?

When it comes to being killed/jailed or following the leader. Most people will follow the leader. Only human nature to want to stay alive.

tybird

even flow? wrote:

When it comes to being killed/jailed or following the leader. Most people will follow the leader. Only human nature to want to stay alive.

Yes, there are a lot of lemmings walking around disguised as human beings.

genie

i'd like to think that i would've been that hero who rebelled against government, but to do that i would have to have qualities of a leader, and i'm certainly not a leader. To rebel against such fasict regime by yourself is plain suicidal.

i think i would've just helped Jews however i could in secret, if i was German.
But if was made to go and fight, then i would've done so.

One thing i know for certain is that i would have never done anything bad to get promoted, that is going against who i am.

Jeanie

Plenty of people resisted and fought against the nazis but you can never know what you'd do until you were in the situation.
I find it interesting that you seem to have even less faith in human nature than I do. I didn't think that was possible.
Fear and propoganda will do strange things to people. Guess we can't know unless we're in the situation ourselves.

But anyway, here's a tune for you Byrnzie.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqQ6EM7HS44

genie

even flow? wrote:

When it comes to being killed/jailed or following the leader. Most people will follow the leader. Only human nature to want to stay alive.

but then if you possess good leardership qualities and see that some people are with you, wouldn't you want to build your own group of people and go against government?

fuck

I've thought about things like this so many times in other situations, as well.

Like I see all these 'christians' every day who act all religious and stuff (no offense to anyone here) but how many of these people would've actually stood up and accepted christianity back then, when it was still new and christians were being killed? how many of these christians are actually in it because they believe or just because they were raised for generations to learn it's right? it's like that with every religion to be honest.

Even when I was reading 1984, I always wondered if I would be one of the mindless people subject to just believing anything the govt, or Party, said, or would I be one of the people that would actually see through it and have a different view?

I don't know, personally. always something to think about, i suppose. Like other people said, it's always hard to oppose a fascist regime, especially when you aren't many against them, but I don't think it's all about "rebelling" against them, but more of a "would I still have my own independent thought in my head or would I be filled with propaganda from the govt to the point where I'm just their toy".

even flow?

genie wrote:

but then if you possess good leardership qualities and see that some people are with you, wouldn't you want to build your own group of people and go against government?

Good leadership qualities are no good from prison or the grave. Ask Mandella or Biko.

Drowned Out

I would not take up arms against anyone except in self defense. I would rather go to jail or die than be forced to kill someone that did not threaten myself, my family or my friends. Sure, I don’t know how I’d react with a gun to my head…but this is a basic moral principle to me…I would hope I’d have the balls to not break it and accept my death or sentence like a man as an example to my children. I would also hope that my critical thinking skills would suffice to resist the propaganda of nazi Germany…I would hope that I could see thru it and not support any doctrine based on hate or greed…again, difficult to say unless in the situation….but it’s not working on me now, so I doubt it would have then
I worry that the problem these days is different than the submission of 30’s German society…. I think there was a lot of ignorance involved because of lack of information. But maybe today, that ignorance is caused by indifference? Most people I know are too content and preoccupied to care about anything unless it’s in their face.

RolandTD20Kdrummer

It's pretty much the exact same thing. There are mass graves being uncovered in Iraq, and more will be found in the future I'm sure.

Demonize a race through lies and propaganda.....then systematically exterminate them.

Same thing then.....same thing now.

blind is blind is all I see...

elmer

not all authority is malevolent, maybe these jobsworths in some cases would be the persons willing to go against the grain.

onelongsong

Byrnzie wrote:

I often wonder about people I meet, and those who I know well, if they would have been Nazis if they had just so happened to have been born in a different milieu, and in a different time.

It's just that I've met countless people over the years who have appeared to me to be lacking in a certain fundamental quality of character, or soul, and which makes them glaringly susceptible to the malevolent influences of authority - in most any shape or form. I often find myself pondering how they would have behaved in 1930's Berlin. Would they have resisted, or rebelled? Would they have helped the Jews? Would they have become state sanctioned mass-murderers?
More often than not, I decide that they would have been only too willing to smash the skulls of innocents, if it meant they'd be promoted, and applauded by their peers.
I mean, take your average jobs-worth. Someone who bows down to authority at every available opportunity, and revels in the tiny amount of power that he/she has been given in the workplace, to the point where their better nature becomes secondary to their job prospects - most jobs-worths I've met have tended to lack even a modicum of soul, or character, or sex. And quite frankly, these people tend, in my experience, to be in the majority. Would someone like this have had the strength of character, and decency of intent to have resisted the forces of indoctrination and prejudice that were prevalent within the central cog of 20th Century fascism?
I doubt it.

I sometimes look around me and think 'How many people here possess that ingredient that would have set them apart from the murderers? Just because they happen to be in a different place, and a different time, what, if anything, makes them any different from those people who fell under the spell of propaganda and indoctrination in the 1930's, to the point that they became willing executioners?'

this is interesting. first; i feel that if atheists have the rights they enjoy; nazis should (and do) too. i use atheists as an example because they use a law about religion to get what they want.
however; as you say; look at peoples jobs. hostile take-overs; people getting screwed by corporations in the name of the almighty dollar; and the competition to get ahead. we've taken a lot from the nazis save the killing.
i can see what you're talking about; i just never looked at it that way.
i'm going to think about this a bit more and see where that takes me on this subject.

Collin

onelongsong wrote:

this is interesting. first; i feel that if atheists have the rights they enjoy; nazis should (and do) too. i use atheists as an example because they use a law about religion to get what they want.

Could you clarify, please? I don't understand what you're saying.

onelongsong

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

It's pretty much the exact same thing. There are mass graves being uncovered in Iraq, and more will be found in the future I'm sure.

Demonize a race through lies and propaganda.....then systematically exterminate them.

Same thing then.....same thing now.

blind is blind is all I see...

you said it much better than i did.
i would like to add the peoples willingness to allow that killing; ie:the mass graves; puts them in the same class. the concesus here is that those who agreed this was wrong and participated in the war in iraq; are themselves wrong.
so aren't those against the war nazis themselves? it's early and i don't know how to articulate this; so maybe i can clear this up a little later.

surferdude

tybird wrote:

Yes, there are a lot of lemmings walking around disguised as human beings.

So does it take a willingness to die for your beliefs to be human?

onelongsong

Collin wrote:

Could you clarify, please? I don't understand what you're saying.

in my eyes; the freedom of religion means the freedom of the people to express whatever religion they chose. during the incident with the 10 commandments in i believe alabama; the PEOPLE ie: 87%; wanted the 10 commandments to remain. in a land that's suppose to be for the people and by the people; why don't the people have a choice? how does 13% outweigh the wishes of the people? i know what the supreme court says; but i don't agree. no religious group had a problem with the 10 commandments being posted there. the words "under God" didn't effect any other group except the atheists who sued.
so; to sum up; this group; ie: atheists; has repeatedly prevented the people from expressing their wishes; which was to have those 10 commandments posted.
if an amendment changing the wording of the right to practice any religion was put to a vote by the people; it would pass. so this small group wants to oppress those with religious beliefs and therefore are no different than nazis; save the killing.

flywallyfly

onelongsong wrote:

in my eyes; the freedom of religion means the freedom of the people to express whatever religion they chose. during the incident with the 10 commandments in i believe alabama; the PEOPLE ie: 87%; wanted the 10 commandments to remain. in a land that's suppose to be for the people and by the people; why don't the people have a choice? how does 13% outweigh the wishes of the people? i know what the supreme court says; but i don't agree. no religious group had a problem with the 10 commandments being posted there. the words "under God" didn't effect any other group except the atheists who sued.
so; to sum up; this group; ie: atheists; has repeatedly prevented the people from expressing their wishes; which was to have those 10 commandments posted.
if an amendment changing the wording of the right to practice any religion was put to a vote by the people; it would pass. so this small group wants to oppress those with religious beliefs and therefore are no different than nazis; save the killing.

So when a majority of Americans wanted blacks to continue to be discriminated against that should have happened according to your logic. Civil rights were for that minority of whites and blacks who wanted it to happen -- silly minority wishes.

onelongsong

flywallyfly wrote:

So when a majority of Americans wanted blacks to continue to be discriminated against that should have happened according to your logic. Civil rights were for that minority of whites and blacks who wanted it to happen -- silly minority wishes.

what the hell are you talking about? 87% of the population is discriminated against because of 13%.
why are you bringing race into this? the constitution needs to be changed and if put on the ballot; it would be.

electronblue

mutants...~

Collin

onelongsong wrote:

in my eyes; the freedom of religion means the freedom of the people to express whatever religion they chose. during the incident with the 10 commandments in i believe alabama; the PEOPLE ie: 87%; wanted the 10 commandments to remain. in a land that's suppose to be for the people and by the people; why don't the people have a choice? how does 13% outweigh the wishes of the people? i know what the supreme court says; but i don't agree. no religious group had a problem with the 10 commandments being posted there. the words "under God" didn't effect any other group except the atheists who sued.

I see what you mean now but I disagree and I think it's ridiculous. What does a group of pissed off atheists have to do with nazism? They sued, which is their right, they won because a judge ruled that that monument violated the constitution's principle of separation of government and religion.

I mean, even if this was relevant to the discussion, which it is not, one could easily turn the whole thing around.

so; to sum up; this group; ie: atheists; has repeatedly prevented the people from expressing their wishes; which was to have those 10 commandments posted.

And it seems to me that the Christian right has in many many ways a lot more impact on American society than atheists, which means that atheists' wishes have been prevented by Christians just because they're a minority.

edit: I already left but I kept thinking that this last part isn't exactly right, it's not what I mean. I can't really explain right now, I'll think about it and post again.

flywallyfly

onelongsong wrote:

what the hell are you talking about? 87% of the population is discriminated against because of 13%.
why are you bringing race into this? the constitution needs to be changed and if put on the ballot; it would be.

Just pointing out how absurd your "majority rules" logic is -- sorry if it is over your head. Also, please explain how not putting the 10 commandments in a government building is discrimanatory. Thanks in advance -- gotta run.