Bushit

Snake

DriftingByTheStorm wrote:

I think most westerners are "prevented from having as much sympatch as they otherwise might" by slanted and deliberately misleading news casts which always talk of "israeli DEFENSE forces" or "the israelis RESPONDED", etc etc ... when the truth is, it is the palestinians who are "responding" ...

i just don't get it.
what did they do?
i mean, fundamentaly?
Can anyone explain to me the "other" side of the coin that involves the palestians as anything but a people resisting brutal opression and mistreatment through the use of force?

yeah, death and fighting suck.
but what would you do? lie down and take it? plead for justice?

i don't think israel has any intention of going anywhere.

i'm not advocating violence.
i'm just saying the situation is intolerable for most all of them, and they live by the whim of israeli military might.

it is not the palestinians who impose brutal miltary rule upon occupied land, who run tanks in to the street, impose curfews every other day of the year, and block of every major throughfare with checkpoints ... it is the israelis ...

i dunno.
i just don't get it.

If you truly believe that the palestinians are doing "Many things that make peace unlikely" ... ask yourself, then what is it that the israelis are doing? The work of god?

:(

I have a friend whos been there in a refugee camp, and he has said how the Israeli soldiers will just go out and shoot in the air just to scare people. Basically do totally unprovoked things just to scare and intimadate people.

Byrnzie

dunkman wrote:

Israel isnt a brutal military regime... its a brutal military democracy

Nazi Germany was also a military democracy. I'm not sure I understand your point.

Byrnzie

jlew24asu wrote:

the US and Israel are fully supporting abbas's government. hamas wants to destroy Israel, they can have gaza and be shunned from the rest of the world.

The U.S also supported the Government of General Pinochet over the elected Government of Allende.
As far as Hamas wanting to destroy Israel, it has every right to as long as Israel continues with the illegal occupation. Britain, France, and the U.S wanted to destroy Nazi Germany about 60 years ago. I think you'd agree they had every right to think that way at the time.

Byrnzie

reborncareerist wrote:

Interesting .. The world can rally around Burmese monks, peaceful demonstrators, while support for another oppressed group who uses violent tactics is a tad more subdued.

Anyone see a pattern?

I'm not sure the Burmese people have renounced violence. There have been violent clashes occuring daily over the past week or so. And besides, the Burmese people aren't suffering under a foreign military occupation. If they were then I'd expect we'd be witnessing different tactics from them altogether.
They've been largely silent all these years and the world has ignored their plight - much like that of Tibet. It's taken for them to start demonstrating and fighting, and dying on the streets for the world to take any notice.

Byrnzie

Snake wrote:

I have a friend whos been there in a refugee camp, and he has said how the Israeli soldiers will just go out and shoot in the air just to scare people. Basically do totally unprovoked things just to scare and intimadate people.

Yep. And shoot 6 year old children in the head for throwing stones at their armoured vehicles, murdering peace protestors with impunity - Rachel Corrie, Tom Handel, e.t.c, fire missiles into crowded residential streets, and bulldoze peoples houses, e.t.c.
But then...the Palestinians aren't doing anything to help themselves by retaliating with whatever means they have at their disposal, right Reborncareerist?

rebornFixer

Byrnzie wrote:

Yep. And shoot 6 year old children in the head for throwing stones at their armoured vehicles, murdering peace protestors with impunity - Rachel Corrie, Tom Handel, e.t.c, fire missiles into crowded residential streets, and bulldoze peoples houses, e.t.c.
But then...the Palestinians aren't doing anything to help themselves by retaliating with whatever means they have at their disposal, right Reborncareerist?

Whatever you people wish to believe. Its still very ironic that my view is the one singled out in this thread as one-sided, when I am the only person so far who has actually implicated BOTH sides in the conflict.

Byrnzie

reborncareerist wrote:

Whatever you people wish to believe. Its still very ironic that my view is the one singled out in this thread as one-sided, when I am the only person so far who has actually implicated BOTH sides in the conflict.

That's very noble of you. However, your misplaced impartiality is exactly what has been preventing any chance of peace in the region for the past 40 years. Until Israel is made to abide by international law and remove itself from the occupied territories then the situation will remain the same.
The U.S Government makes no effort anymore to conceal it's 100% support for Israel. It has just increased it's military aid to Israel by a further 25%. Your impartiality may seem to be magnanimous to some, but it does nothing but reek of support for the current impasse.
Many people spoke of the blacks in South Africa during Aparthied needing to do more to help themselves, and of being to blame for their own mess, e.t.c, e.t.c. (Maybe that's why the U.S supported the Aparthied regime until the very end?). But I'm afraid that sometimes sitting on the fence just isn't an option - in fact in some circumstances it's downright stupid.

rebornFixer

Byrnzie wrote:

That's very noble of you. However, your misplaced impartiality is exactly what has been preventing any chance of peace in the region for the past 40 years. Until Israel is made to abide by international law and remove itself from the occupied territories then the situation will remain the same.
The U.S Government makes no effort anymore to conceal it's 100% support for Israel. It has just increased it's military aid to Israel by a further 25%. Your impartiality may seem to be magnanimous to some, but it does nothing but reek of support for the current impasse.
Many people spoke of the blacks in South Africa during Aparthied needing to do more to help themselves, and of being to blame for their own mess, e.t.c, e.t.c. (Maybe that's why the U.S supported the Aparthied regime until the very end?). But I'm afraid that sometimes sitting on the fence just isn't an option - in fact in some circumstances it's downright stupid.

Do you even read my posts? I listed off a whole bunch of things that Israel needs to do, but you ignore that. Fencesitting means DOING NOTHING. Making concrete suggestions is more intelligent that what you do, which is just insult people. Old habits die hard, eh? Why do you behave like such an ignorant asshole, when so many posts indicate that you do in fact have something between your ears?
Anyhow, thanks for reminding me why I was gone for months.

catefrances

reborncareerist wrote:

I've never believed that the issue was one-sided, and I am not buying into anything. I DO believe that the Palestinians do many things that make peace unlikely .... In other words, some of their actions contribute to a bad situation, and prevent many Westerners from having as much sympathy as they otherwise might. This is a moderate take on the situation, not a one-sided view. I'll also be the first person to argue that Israel should 1) return certain lands, 2) make a more serious attempt to reach a peace agreement, and 3) do more to better the lot of moderate Palestinian factions ... Actually, scratch that. They should do more to better the lot of Palestinians, period.
A huge cause of terrorism is oppression. Another huge cause of terrorism is fundamentalist ideologies. There is a link between the two, in that the latter look more appealing because of the former ... But its not JUST oppression.

i agree. one has to wonder where israel would stand if it weren't supported with such earnest by washington. it would surely be a breath of fresh air if washington had the courage of their democratic convictions and the balls to pull israel into line. i imagine they'd surely receive more respect from the middle east. or not. who am i to say. tis easy sitting in a country so far from everything that i feel pleasantly isolated geographically the majority of the time.

rebornFixer

catefrances wrote:

i agree. one has to wonder where israel would stand if it weren't supported with such earnest by washington. it would surely be a breath of fresh air if washington had the courage of their democratic convictions and the balls to pull israel into line. i imagine they'd surely receive more respect from the middle east. or not. who am i to say. tis easy sitting in a country so far from everything that i feel pleasantly isolated geographically the majority of the time.

For sure. The U.S. does an absolutely horrible job of "mediating" the whole situation. If anyone is in a position to pressure Israel to make some changes, its the Americans, and they do not exercise this ability.

DriftingByTheStorm

reborncareerist wrote:

Anyhow, thanks for reminding me why I was gone for months.

yeah.
i actualy missed you.


when i saw this post, something went off in my wittle head ...

i was like, "hey, reborn! old chum!"

jlew24asu

Byrnzie wrote:

The U.S also supported the Government of General Pinochet over the elected Government of Allende.
As far as Hamas wanting to destroy Israel, it has every right to as long as Israel continues with the illegal occupation. Britain, France, and the U.S wanted to destroy Nazi Germany about 60 years ago. I think you'd agree they had every right to think that way at the time.

you completely ignore my point and blah on about something about allende? who gives a fuck. US and Israel are supporting abbas and his government. that is the only chance for peace. why are you supporting hamas. if you are on the palestinian side, which you clearly are, why not encourage the talks that are already going on. Israel will give up the land you so dearly love but they will only do it with a government who recognizes its right to exist. hamas does not. that will never bring peace no matter how much you cry about it.

searchlightsoul

jlew24asu wrote:

you completely ignore my point and blah on about something about allende? who gives a fuck.

Ahh gee ..........the thousands of people who were oppressed and murdered? You should really try and be just a bit more compassionate.

jlew24asu

searchlightsoul wrote:

Ahh gee ..........the thousands of people who were oppressed and murdered? You should really try and be just a bit more compassionate.

you're right I should. but lets stay on topic shall we

Abuskedti

gue_barium wrote:

In that attitude, I see the lily-white North american-consumer-nothing-can-touch me-i'm always-on-the-right-side pattern of non-thought that permeates this culture.

he he.. well said

jlew24asu

Byrnzie wrote:

That's very noble of you. However, your misplaced impartiality is exactly what has been preventing any chance of peace in the region for the past 40 years. Until Israel is made to abide by international law and remove itself from the occupied territories then the situation will remain the same.
The U.S Government makes no effort anymore to conceal it's 100% support for Israel. It has just increased it's military aid to Israel by a further 25%. Your impartiality may seem to be magnanimous to some, but it does nothing but reek of support for the current impasse.
Many people spoke of the blacks in South Africa during Aparthied needing to do more to help themselves, and of being to blame for their own mess, e.t.c, e.t.c. (Maybe that's why the U.S supported the Aparthied regime until the very end?). But I'm afraid that sometimes sitting on the fence just isn't an option - in fact in some circumstances it's downright stupid.

now you want to bring APARTHEID into this?

http://www.itcilo.it/actrav/actrav-english/telearn/global/ilo/guide/antia.htm

can Hamas do no wrong in your eyes?

PaperPlates

gue_barium wrote:

For someone who lives so far away, you sure have a lot of ideas on what's going on over there.
I wonder where you get those ideas?
Don't answer that.

and where exactly do you live?

gue_barium

PaperPlates wrote:

and where exactly do you live?

This is not a chat forum.

jlew24asu

gue_barium wrote:

This is not a chat forum.

it was a rhetorical question. you live just as far away as he does.

gue_barium

jlew24asu wrote:

it was a rhetorical question. you live just as far away as he does.

But I don't take the latitude in opinion to know what it is like to live there, or what the real deal is when it comes to life beyond politics in that region of the world.