Bushit

ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
edited September 2007 in A Moving Train
"Every civilised nation has a responsibility to stand up for people suffering under a brutal military regime like the one that has ruled Burma for too long." George Bush

Why are we not standing up for the Palestinians then?
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  • dunkmandunkman Posts: 19,646
    Israel isnt a brutal military regime... its a brutal military democracy
    oh scary... 40000 morbidly obese christians wearing fanny packs invading europe is probably the least scariest thing since I watched an edited version of The Care Bears movie in an extremely brightly lit cinema.
  • jlew24asujlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    Byrnzie wrote:
    "Every civilised nation has a responsibility to stand up for people suffering under a brutal military regime like the one that has ruled Burma for too long." George Bush

    Why are we not standing up for the Palestinians then?

    the US and Israel are fully supporting abbas's government. hamas wants to destroy Israel, they can have gaza and be shunned from the rest of the world.
  • Byrnzie wrote:
    "Every civilised nation has a responsibility to stand up for people suffering under a brutal military regime like the one that has ruled Burma for too long." George Bush

    Why are we not standing up for the Palestinians then?

    Palestine...the other dark meat...
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

    (\__/)
    ( o.O)
    (")_(")
  • Palestine...the other dark meat...

    Interesting .. The world can rally around Burmese monks, peaceful demonstrators, while support for another oppressed group who uses violent tactics is a tad more subdued.

    Anyone see a pattern?
  • Not that I am claiming that the U.S. is actually doing anything to support said monks. Too many corporate interests could be threatened if they got involved. That too is bushit.
  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    Interesting .. The world can rally around Burmese monks, peaceful demonstrators, while support for another oppressed group who uses violent tactics is a tad more subdued.

    Anyone see a pattern?
    In that attitude, I see the lily-white North american-consumer-nothing-can-touch me-i'm always-on-the-right-side pattern of non-thought that permeates this culture.

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  • gue_barium wrote:
    In that attitude, I see the lily-white North american-consumer-nothing-can-touch me-i'm always-on-the-right-side pattern of non-thought that permeates this culture.

    Frankly? You see that because you're having a knee-jerk retarded wannabe revolutionary mental hiccup because you've read to much leftist propaganda moment. Stop for two seconds and think about it logically.
  • lets invade Bhurma
  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    Frankly? You see that because you're having knee-jerk retarded wannabe revolutionary mental hiccup because you've read to much leftist propaganda moment. Stop for two seconds and think about it logically.
    That's a personal attack.

    In any case, I'll answer. Your logic has a bottom line of violence being bad, no?
    Have you never found need in your life to fight back, ever, against someone? I mean physically. If given the opportunity to fight for the lives of your family and having to take up arms to to it, would you not? Even if it meant killing someone?

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  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    MrSmith wrote:
    lets invade Bhurma

    No, let's hope the Burmese learned from the massacre of 3,000 in 1989, and do something that may surprise us all.

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  • gue_barium wrote:
    That's a personal attack.

    In any case, I'll answer. Your logic has a bottom line of violence being bad, no?
    Have you never found need in your life to fight back, ever, against someone? I mean physically. If given the opportunity to fight for the lives of your family and take up arms to to it, would you not?

    Your comment was a personal attack too, so maybe you should dial it down yourself. At least, I took it as such. "lily-white nothing can touch me" is offensive because a) I am not that type of person at all and b) I have thought a lot about the issues, as much as you probably have. Don't paint someone else with such broad strokes if you're worried about getting your brush broken.

    And absolutely, I've been in that position ... Probably many times. There's a difference between fighting back and doing what Hamas does, though. The Palestinian farmer whose son got shot dead by Israeli troops is not the same person as the Hamas militant who kills his own people because they do not subscribe to his brand of fundamentalism.
  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    Your comment was a personal attack too, so maybe you should dial it down yourself. At least, I took it as such. "lily-white nothing can touch me" is offensive because a) I am not that type of person at all and b) I have thought a lot about the issues, as much as you probably have. Don't paint someone else with such broad strokes if you're worried about getting your brush broken.

    And absolutely, I've been in that position ... Probably many times. There's a difference between fighting back and doing what Hamas does, though. The Palestinian farmer whose son got shot dead by Israeli troops is not the same person as the Hamas militant who kills his own people because they do not subscribe to his brand of fundamentalism.

    But, that's just it. Following your logic, all acts of violence are senseless acts of violence. To sit here on the other side of the world and pass judgement on which side is "right" in Israel/Palestine or Hamas/Zionist is playing right into the hands of those who want you to believe it is a one-sided issue.

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  • gue_barium wrote:
    But, that's just it. Following your logic, all acts of violence are senseless acts of violence. To sit here on the other side of the world and pass judgement on which side is "right" in Israel/Palestine or Hamas/Zionist is playing right into the hands of those who want you to believe it is a one-sided issue.

    I've never believed that the issue was one-sided, and I am not buying into anything. I DO believe that the Palestinians do many things that make peace unlikely .... In other words, some of their actions contribute to a bad situation, and prevent many Westerners from having as much sympathy as they otherwise might. This is a moderate take on the situation, not a one-sided view. I'll also be the first person to argue that Israel should 1) return certain lands, 2) make a more serious attempt to reach a peace agreement, and 3) do more to better the lot of moderate Palestinian factions ... Actually, scratch that. They should do more to better the lot of Palestinians, period.
    A huge cause of terrorism is oppression. Another huge cause of terrorism is fundamentalist ideologies. There is a link between the two, in that the latter look more appealing because of the former ... But its not JUST oppression.
  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    I've never believed that the issue was one-sided, and I am not buying into anything. I DO believe that the Palestinians do many things that make peace unlikely .... In other words, some of their actions contribute to a bad situation, and prevent many Westerners from having as much sympathy as they otherwise might. This is a moderate take on the situation, not a one-sided view. I'll also be the first person to argue that Israel should 1) return certain lands, 2) make a more serious attempt to reach a peace agreement, and 3) do more to better the lot of moderate Palestinian factions ... Actually, scratch that. They should do more to better the lot of Palestinians, period.
    A huge cause of terrorism is oppression. Another huge cause of terrorism is fundamentalist ideologies. There is a link between the two, in that the latter look more appealing because of the former ... But its not JUST oppression.

    For someone who lives so far away, you sure have a lot of ideas on what's going on over there.
    I wonder where you get those ideas?
    Don't answer that.

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  • gue_barium wrote:
    For someone who lives so far away, you sure have a lot of ideas on what's going on over there.
    I wonder where you get those ideas?
    Don't answer that.

    Where do you live?

    Maybes there's life on Mars after all ...
  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    Where do you live?

    Maybes there's life on Mars after all ...

    Until you've lived in a situation like that, your opinion on what needs to be done to fix it comes across as exactly the type of Western non-thinking I talked about in my first reply to you.

    But, maybe you'll come around.

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  • gue_barium wrote:
    Until you've lived in a situation like that, your opinion on what needs to be done to fix it comes across as exactly the type of Western non-thinking I talked about in my first reply to you.

    But, maybe you'll come around.

    Like I said, where do you live? And no, I don't want to stalk you and don't really expect you to answer. I am guessing that you too live in North America, though, and if you're arguing that my opinion is invalid by dint of such, then I can dismiss your opinion for exactly the same reason. Maybe you've just some kid in the 'burbs whose played too many violent video games ... You're all desensitized and such. Shooting someone or blowing up cars doesn't sound like such a bad way to solve ones problems.
  • gue_bariumgue_barium Posts: 5,515
    Like I said, where do you live? And no, I don't want to stalk you and don't really expect you to answer. I am guessing that you too live in North America, though, and if you're arguing that my opinion is invalid by dint of such, then I can dismiss your opinion for exactly the same reason. Maybe you've just some kid in the 'burbs whose played too many violent video games ... You're all desensitized and such. Shooting someone or blowing up cars doesn't sound like such a bad way to solve ones problems.

    I didn't say your opinion was invalid, to me. It is invalid to any Palestinian or Israeli. I'm sure you can see that.
    In other words, it's pointless to where it matters most.

    I don't know what all that other blab is about video games...

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  • I DO believe that the Palestinians do many things that make peace unlikely .... In other words, some of their actions contribute to a bad situation, and prevent many Westerners from having as much sympathy as they otherwise might.

    I think most westerners are "prevented from having as much sympatch as they otherwise might" by slanted and deliberately misleading news casts which always talk of "israeli DEFENSE forces" or "the israelis RESPONDED", etc etc ... when the truth is, it is the palestinians who are "responding" ...

    i just don't get it.
    what did they do?
    i mean, fundamentaly?
    Can anyone explain to me the "other" side of the coin that involves the palestians as anything but a people resisting brutal opression and mistreatment through the use of force?

    yeah, death and fighting suck.
    but what would you do? lie down and take it? plead for justice?

    i don't think israel has any intention of going anywhere.

    i'm not advocating violence.
    i'm just saying the situation is intolerable for most all of them, and they live by the whim of israeli military might.

    it is not the palestinians who impose brutal miltary rule upon occupied land, who run tanks in to the street, impose curfews every other day of the year, and block of every major throughfare with checkpoints ... it is the israelis ...

    i dunno.
    i just don't get it.

    If you truly believe that the palestinians are doing "Many things that make peace unlikely" ... ask yourself, then what is it that the israelis are doing? The work of god?

    :(
    If I was to smile and I held out my hand
    If I opened it now would you not understand?
  • SnakeSnake Posts: 2,605
    dunkman wrote:
    Israel isnt a brutal military regime... its a brutal military democracy
    Yup thats one part of it
    Pirates had democracy too.

    "Its a secret to everybody."
  • SnakeSnake Posts: 2,605
    I think most westerners are "prevented from having as much sympatch as they otherwise might" by slanted and deliberately misleading news casts which always talk of "israeli DEFENSE forces" or "the israelis RESPONDED", etc etc ... when the truth is, it is the palestinians who are "responding" ...

    i just don't get it.
    what did they do?
    i mean, fundamentaly?
    Can anyone explain to me the "other" side of the coin that involves the palestians as anything but a people resisting brutal opression and mistreatment through the use of force?

    yeah, death and fighting suck.
    but what would you do? lie down and take it? plead for justice?

    i don't think israel has any intention of going anywhere.

    i'm not advocating violence.
    i'm just saying the situation is intolerable for most all of them, and they live by the whim of israeli military might.

    it is not the palestinians who impose brutal miltary rule upon occupied land, who run tanks in to the street, impose curfews every other day of the year, and block of every major throughfare with checkpoints ... it is the israelis ...

    i dunno.
    i just don't get it.

    If you truly believe that the palestinians are doing "Many things that make peace unlikely" ... ask yourself, then what is it that the israelis are doing? The work of god?

    :(
    I have a friend whos been there in a refugee camp, and he has said how the Israeli soldiers will just go out and shoot in the air just to scare people. Basically do totally unprovoked things just to scare and intimadate people.
    Pirates had democracy too.

    "Its a secret to everybody."
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    dunkman wrote:
    Israel isnt a brutal military regime... its a brutal military democracy

    Nazi Germany was also a military democracy. I'm not sure I understand your point.
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    jlew24asu wrote:
    the US and Israel are fully supporting abbas's government. hamas wants to destroy Israel, they can have gaza and be shunned from the rest of the world.

    The U.S also supported the Government of General Pinochet over the elected Government of Allende.
    As far as Hamas wanting to destroy Israel, it has every right to as long as Israel continues with the illegal occupation. Britain, France, and the U.S wanted to destroy Nazi Germany about 60 years ago. I think you'd agree they had every right to think that way at the time.
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    Interesting .. The world can rally around Burmese monks, peaceful demonstrators, while support for another oppressed group who uses violent tactics is a tad more subdued.

    Anyone see a pattern?

    I'm not sure the Burmese people have renounced violence. There have been violent clashes occuring daily over the past week or so. And besides, the Burmese people aren't suffering under a foreign military occupation. If they were then I'd expect we'd be witnessing different tactics from them altogether.
    They've been largely silent all these years and the world has ignored their plight - much like that of Tibet. It's taken for them to start demonstrating and fighting, and dying on the streets for the world to take any notice.
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    Snake wrote:
    I have a friend whos been there in a refugee camp, and he has said how the Israeli soldiers will just go out and shoot in the air just to scare people. Basically do totally unprovoked things just to scare and intimadate people.

    Yep. And shoot 6 year old children in the head for throwing stones at their armoured vehicles, murdering peace protestors with impunity - Rachel Corrie, Tom Handel, e.t.c, fire missiles into crowded residential streets, and bulldoze peoples houses, e.t.c.
    But then...the Palestinians aren't doing anything to help themselves by retaliating with whatever means they have at their disposal, right Reborncareerist?
  • Byrnzie wrote:
    Yep. And shoot 6 year old children in the head for throwing stones at their armoured vehicles, murdering peace protestors with impunity - Rachel Corrie, Tom Handel, e.t.c, fire missiles into crowded residential streets, and bulldoze peoples houses, e.t.c.
    But then...the Palestinians aren't doing anything to help themselves by retaliating with whatever means they have at their disposal, right Reborncareerist?

    Whatever you people wish to believe. Its still very ironic that my view is the one singled out in this thread as one-sided, when I am the only person so far who has actually implicated BOTH sides in the conflict.
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    Whatever you people wish to believe. Its still very ironic that my view is the one singled out in this thread as one-sided, when I am the only person so far who has actually implicated BOTH sides in the conflict.

    That's very noble of you. However, your misplaced impartiality is exactly what has been preventing any chance of peace in the region for the past 40 years. Until Israel is made to abide by international law and remove itself from the occupied territories then the situation will remain the same.
    The U.S Government makes no effort anymore to conceal it's 100% support for Israel. It has just increased it's military aid to Israel by a further 25%. Your impartiality may seem to be magnanimous to some, but it does nothing but reek of support for the current impasse.
    Many people spoke of the blacks in South Africa during Aparthied needing to do more to help themselves, and of being to blame for their own mess, e.t.c, e.t.c. (Maybe that's why the U.S supported the Aparthied regime until the very end?). But I'm afraid that sometimes sitting on the fence just isn't an option - in fact in some circumstances it's downright stupid.
  • Byrnzie wrote:
    That's very noble of you. However, your misplaced impartiality is exactly what has been preventing any chance of peace in the region for the past 40 years. Until Israel is made to abide by international law and remove itself from the occupied territories then the situation will remain the same.
    The U.S Government makes no effort anymore to conceal it's 100% support for Israel. It has just increased it's military aid to Israel by a further 25%. Your impartiality may seem to be magnanimous to some, but it does nothing but reek of support for the current impasse.
    Many people spoke of the blacks in South Africa during Aparthied needing to do more to help themselves, and of being to blame for their own mess, e.t.c, e.t.c. (Maybe that's why the U.S supported the Aparthied regime until the very end?). But I'm afraid that sometimes sitting on the fence just isn't an option - in fact in some circumstances it's downright stupid.


    Do you even read my posts? I listed off a whole bunch of things that Israel needs to do, but you ignore that. Fencesitting means DOING NOTHING. Making concrete suggestions is more intelligent that what you do, which is just insult people. Old habits die hard, eh? Why do you behave like such an ignorant asshole, when so many posts indicate that you do in fact have something between your ears?
    Anyhow, thanks for reminding me why I was gone for months.
  • catefrancescatefrances Posts: 29,003
    I've never believed that the issue was one-sided, and I am not buying into anything. I DO believe that the Palestinians do many things that make peace unlikely .... In other words, some of their actions contribute to a bad situation, and prevent many Westerners from having as much sympathy as they otherwise might. This is a moderate take on the situation, not a one-sided view. I'll also be the first person to argue that Israel should 1) return certain lands, 2) make a more serious attempt to reach a peace agreement, and 3) do more to better the lot of moderate Palestinian factions ... Actually, scratch that. They should do more to better the lot of Palestinians, period.
    A huge cause of terrorism is oppression. Another huge cause of terrorism is fundamentalist ideologies. There is a link between the two, in that the latter look more appealing because of the former ... But its not JUST oppression.

    i agree. one has to wonder where israel would stand if it weren't supported with such earnest by washington. it would surely be a breath of fresh air if washington had the courage of their democratic convictions and the balls to pull israel into line. i imagine they'd surely receive more respect from the middle east. or not. who am i to say. tis easy sitting in a country so far from everything that i feel pleasantly isolated geographically the majority of the time.
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  • i agree. one has to wonder where israel would stand if it weren't supported with such earnest by washington. it would surely be a breath of fresh air if washington had the courage of their democratic convictions and the balls to pull israel into line. i imagine they'd surely receive more respect from the middle east. or not. who am i to say. tis easy sitting in a country so far from everything that i feel pleasantly isolated geographically the majority of the time.

    For sure. The U.S. does an absolutely horrible job of "mediating" the whole situation. If anyone is in a position to pressure Israel to make some changes, its the Americans, and they do not exercise this ability.
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