Actually sounds like you're the one that is getting yer butt hurt in thinking the US helped out Britain. I dont 'recall' Russian forces assisting in the Battle of Britain. If so, then please correct me.
edit/also: I dont like it when people keep saying "if it wasn't for America we'd be speaking German now", i think its kinda childish in a way myself. But is does hold some truth.
Yes it does, but so does the sentence 'if it wasn't for Irish soldiers in WWII, you'd all be speaking German now' :rolleyes: Fact is it wasn't called a WORLD WAR for nothing - every nation played their part, however big or small. It was all hands on deck, so to speak... far from this video game mentality so many of you seem to have. There is no way of telling which nation was most important in this fight.
Oh and also, one could also say 'I'm already speaking a foreign language and nobody did anything then... I may as well be speaking German. Why does it matter which foreign language I'm speaking???' :mad:
The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
Verona??? it's all surmountable
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Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
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But those weren't committed by the US< so they tend to fall to the wayside in these people's minds.
Ah yes, because we've all forgotten about the nazis??? :rolleyes: Nobody's ever heard of the holocaust :rolleyes:
The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
Im not insulting anyone. and I've given credit where its due. You are the one not giving credit, and are actually doing your best to down play actual events to strengthen your argument. Waht is shameful is your coming on here and assuming your know 'oh so much' about what happened and assuming us in the west are ignorant to your own version of history. And I asked for some proof from you. an un-biased link, something to back up your supposed facts/statistics.
Wow :eek:
I bet every soldier who died in WWII would be soooo proud that they died so we could have this discussion as to which death or which battle or which day or which individual soldier was most important :rolleyes:
The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
So this is just another random, run-of-the-mill US bashing thread. Huh, never saw it coming.
Figures.
Despite the fact that they've said a FEW times 'not to put down the US part' :rolleyes: You see what you want to see. Read the first post of the thread and that's what the thread's about. I've even had Americans say to ME that I'd be speaking German if it weren't for them despite the fact that Germany never invaded Ireland and like I said we're already speaking a foreign language anyway... do we simply pretend we don't notice that?
The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
I was in Florida last year and popped into a bar where they had freedom fries on the menu! :eek:
Yep, whilst we know that not ALL Americans supported this stupidity... we know there were those who did. I was in New York when America started bombing Iraq and I remember being at a bar and hearing the guy beside me comment in disgust 'oh my god, is that FRENCH wine they're serving??? I didn't think that was legal anymore'. This wasn't just an isolated incident. I also had a guy offer to buy me a drink and then refuse when I asked for a pint of Stella ('French' beer )
The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
I haven't once said that. The British are also as guilty of harbouring a jingoistic belief that 'We' saved Europe and that D-day was the grand occasion and pivotal moment of the 2nd World War.
Still, you surely can't deny that, just as in Britain, about 99% of people probably haven't even heard of Stalingrad, Kursk, or the battle of Moscow? In fact, I'd go so far as to hazard a guess that about 50% of people in Britain and America combined probably don't even know that the Ruskies were involved in World war 2.
Yeh, but then again I've also heard that the reason so many English are 'hurt' cos the Irish don't like them so much is cos they don't actually teach THAT part of British history either :eek: . What DO they teach in your schools?
The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
I don't think that anyone can discount the effect the U.S. had against Germany during WWII. Could the U.S. have done it alone? Maybe... maybe not. There were too many other factors involved:
Hitler's poor decisions:
Going after London after allied bombers hit Berlin. Had he listened to Goering and kept on bombing RAF Fields and British aircraft manufacturing facilities, the Battle Of Britian may have had very different outcomes.
Going after Russia. The Russians killed a lot of German soldiers (at extremely heavy losses of their own) but it was the Russian Winter that killed them. The taking on the Eastern Front when the Western Front was not accomplished was a poor, poor decision.
His decisions on German manufacturing. Had Germany continued its heavy bomber program with the Focke-Wulf Condor, they would have had the ability to reach further into Russia. The Russians moved their heavy manufacturing deep into the Ural Mountains, out of reach of German medium bombers. Hitler did not listen to his generals. He believed his Blitzkrieg war would be able to take land and move across in short hops, instead of long range heavy bombing.
He also re-directed the Messerschmidt Me-262 to become the first jet bomber. It was designed as a high altitude interceptor to take out slow moving allied bomber formations. The configuration changes to set hard points for bombs on the wings and fuselage changed the flight characteristics of the craft and altered its performance envelope. and, most importantly, delayed its deployment in heavy numbers allowing allied bombing raids to lay waste over Messerschmidt and other German factories.
Hitler's ego played a part in Hitler's undoing.
...
But, again... no one can discount America's role in WWII. and i think it is a falisy to believe that America, alone, won the war.
Agreed. It wasn't just one single factor that determined the fate of WWII.
I understand Byrnzie's point about Soviet Russia's contribution to the defeat of Nazi Germany being undervalued/little known. Conversely, you cannot though dismiss the importance of US intervention.
Yeh, but then again I've also heard that the reason so many English are 'hurt' cos the Irish don't like them so much is cos they don't actually teach THAT part of British history either :eek: . What DO they teach in your schools?
Relevant word being HISTORY H... it wasn't us, sins of the father and all that....
Astoria Crew
Troubled souls unite, we got ourselves tonight...
Astoria, Dublin, Reading 06
Katowice, Wembley 07
SBE, Manchester, O2 09
Hyde Park 10
Manchester 1&2 12
This is just g'bye for now...
The first soldiers my mother saw when her city was 'liberated' were the Canadians, then the British, then the Americans and finally the Polish....
In all of this, let's not forget the huge role the 'resistance' had in numerous european countries. Their actions contributed greatly to the 'libration'.
The first soldiers my father saw in his little mountain village in northern Italy were Americans. A few days before he also saw resistance fighters hanged from all the village lamp-posts as "goodbye present" from the escaping Nazi Germans.
The Resistance movement had a pivotal role as well in the defeat of Nazi Germany.
Yep, whilst we know that not ALL Americans supported this stupidity... we know there were those who did. I was in New York when America started bombing Iraq and I remember being at a bar and hearing the guy beside me comment in disgust 'oh my god, is that FRENCH wine they're serving??? I didn't think that was legal anymore'. This wasn't just an isolated incident. I also had a guy offer to buy me a drink and then refuse when I asked for a pint of Stella ('French' beer )
...(Italy is included with Germany, because they were basically a puppet state). .....
Just to complete the picture, after Mussolini was overthrown in July 43 and after the armistice of 8 September 1943, only the Repubblica di Salo' - a town near Verona - was Nazi Germany's puppet state. Italy was then in the throes of a civil war between resistance fighters and those still with allegiance to the Fascist Party.
The first soldiers my father saw in his little mountain village in northern Italy were Americans. A few days before he also saw resistance fighters hanged from all the village lamp-posts as "goodbye present" from the escaping Nazi Germans.
The Resistance movement had a pivotal role as well in the defeat of Nazi Germany.
And they been given their proper due throughout this thread. My Grandfather's unit flew out of Italy after the Nazi's were removed. He actually got to see Mussolini hanging from a lamp post.
All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a thousand enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with the swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.
Nah, man ... I was trying to back up your use of the term. I think its accurate, based on how the Soviets often fought.
I know you were.....but I also thought maybe there actually existed a more politically correct term, and you had heard it used.
All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a thousand enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with the swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.
Why? Because the French Government was reluctant to support the Bush Administrations illegal war on Iraq, the justifications for which were all lies?
You're not painting a very good picture of yourself on this message board jlew24asu.
it has nothing to do with the government. Iwas there and they hate americans IMO.
am I supposed to give a fuck how people paint my picture? what a stupid thing to say.
I have gone to several pj shows with many members of this board. dont you worry about me. since I'm not a raging liberal who thinks american is wrong in everything they do, then should I be afraid? loose sleep at night? laughable.
Relevant word being HISTORY H... it wasn't us, sins of the father and all that....
I KNOW it wasn't you but isn't that the same rhetoric we're using against the Americans... when some Americans say 'if it weren't for us you'd all be speaking German' and all that? That's cos they don't understand what 'WORLD war' means, potentially cos they're not taught that bit. I think countries should be taught why other nations don't like them. I believe the Germans are taught of their dirty past and rightly so, so that it doesn't happen again. Some Americans fail to realise that their nation has ever done anything wrong. Some English people are the same. It's all this video game mentality bullshit - 'we're the only superpower, we could kick your ass' and all that crap.
The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
Edit: The French are far from hating the americans... they hate the stereotype which you seem to represent, they hate the american government and what it has done in 'everyone's' name.....
I KNOW it wasn't you but isn't that the same rhetoric we're using against the Americans... when some Americans say 'if it weren't for us you'd all be speaking German' and all that? That's cos they don't understand what 'WORLD war' means, potentially cos they're not taught that bit. I think countries should be taught why other nations don't like them. I believe the Germans are taught of their dirty past and rightly so, so that it doesn't happen again. Some Americans fail to realise that their nation has ever done anything wrong. Some English people are the same. It's all this video game mentality bullshit - 'we're the only superpower, we could kick your ass' and all that crap.
I don't use that rhetoric against Americans as a whole, I don't have a problem with any nationality per se:
I don't dislike Germans - but obviously hate Nazi's and facists of any country, modern Germany is light years away from that.
I don't dislike Americans - just ignorant, xenophobes of any nationality, it just so happens there tend to be quite a few Americans that fit that category...
I don't believe any sweeping statement against a nationality, sex or creed it's all crap, get to know the individual.
And I do speak some German The quote that started this off was from one "ignorant" American and was simply being responded to.
Each generation has to learn from the past not re-live it...
Astoria Crew
Troubled souls unite, we got ourselves tonight...
Astoria, Dublin, Reading 06
Katowice, Wembley 07
SBE, Manchester, O2 09
Hyde Park 10
Manchester 1&2 12
This is just g'bye for now...
BINGO!!! finally an intelligent statement. I have my own opinions. since most dont agree with mine views of America, means i'm a bad person?
like Eddie said. Fuck 'em
Eddie would actually be embarassed by you... he'd be more likely to say fuck YOU...
Astoria Crew
Troubled souls unite, we got ourselves tonight...
Astoria, Dublin, Reading 06
Katowice, Wembley 07
SBE, Manchester, O2 09
Hyde Park 10
Manchester 1&2 12
This is just g'bye for now...
That's cos they don't understand what 'WORLD war' means,
But my point of starting this thread was to point out that 3/4's of the German military machine was destroyed on the Eastern front, and that therefore the 'WORLD' owes more to them for defeating the Nazi's than it does to the U.S or any other country for that matter, regardless of everyones contribution. I was putting things into perspective. I.e, it's a fact that 9 out of every 10 German soldiers were killed on Russian soil. These statistics speak for themselves. It's quite plain and simple to me. Most people have been somewhat defensive of their country's part in World war 2 on this board after I posted some of these details. I don't know why this is. I personally couldn't give a fuck where England, or Britain stands in the order of things. I was merely pointing out some historical facts relating to the war in response to some typical U.S jingoism - 'you'd all be talking German now if it wasn't for America'. My immediate and simple response to such a comment is "Bollocks!"
BINGO!!! finally an intelligent statement. I have my own opinions. since most dont agree with mine views of America, means i'm a bad person?
like Eddie said. Fuck 'em
Believe it or not, I respect this attitude. I actually think it was Kurt Cobain who once said 'There's nothing more therapeutic than a well placed "Fuck it!" Wise words indeed.
I still don't agree with your fuck the French comment though. I'm an Englishman who happens to like the French. A rare thing.
And they been given their proper due throughout this thread. My Grandfather's unit flew out of Italy after the Nazi's were removed. He actually got to see Mussolini hanging from a lamp post.
That was Piazzale Loreto in Milano, if I remember correctly. That episode is considered one of the low points in the Italian WWII civil war (FYI, some argue that it was not an actual civil war), with the summary execution and desecration of the bodies of Mussolini and his lover, Claretta Petacci.
As for the Resistance fighters, my point was merely to underline their contribution in the war effort as well.
But my point of starting this thread was to point out that 3/4's of the German military machine was destroyed on the Eastern front, and that therefore the 'WORLD' owes more to them for defeating the Nazi's than it does to the U.S or any other country for that matter, regardless of everyones contribution. I was putting things into perspective. I.e, it's a fact that 9 out of every 10 German soldiers were killed on Russian soil. These statistics speak for themselves. It's quite plain and simple to me. Most people have been somewhat defensive of their country's part in World war 2 on this board after I posted some of these details. I don't know why this is. I personally couldn't give a fuck where England, or Britain stands in the order of things. I was merely pointing out some historical facts relating to the war in response to some typical U.S jingoism - 'you'd all be talking German now if it wasn't for America'. My immediate and simple response to such a comment is "Bollocks!"
Byrnzie, I'm agreeing with ya. It's called a world war cos the whole world was involved and it was a joint effort - something we seem to be incapable of these days - and no one nation deserves any special credit.
The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
it has nothing to do with the government. Iwas there and they hate americans IMO.
You will find that not only in France but in other parts of Europe and the world the view of the American government (key word, government - one can distinguish between that and its people) is not very favourable, to use an understatement, after the US government's foreign policy decisions squandered all the universal support it had garnered because of 9/11.
Comments
Oh and also, one could also say 'I'm already speaking a foreign language and nobody did anything then... I may as well be speaking German. Why does it matter which foreign language I'm speaking???' :mad:
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
I bet every soldier who died in WWII would be soooo proud that they died so we could have this discussion as to which death or which battle or which day or which individual soldier was most important :rolleyes:
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
Agreed. It wasn't just one single factor that determined the fate of WWII.
I understand Byrnzie's point about Soviet Russia's contribution to the defeat of Nazi Germany being undervalued/little known. Conversely, you cannot though dismiss the importance of US intervention.
Back to catching up with the thread!
Relevant word being HISTORY H... it wasn't us, sins of the father and all that....
Troubled souls unite, we got ourselves tonight...
Astoria, Dublin, Reading 06
Katowice, Wembley 07
SBE, Manchester, O2 09
Hyde Park 10
Manchester 1&2 12
This is just g'bye for now...
The first soldiers my father saw in his little mountain village in northern Italy were Americans. A few days before he also saw resistance fighters hanged from all the village lamp-posts as "goodbye present" from the escaping Nazi Germans.
The Resistance movement had a pivotal role as well in the defeat of Nazi Germany.
fuck the french.
Why? Because the French Government was reluctant to support the Bush Administrations illegal war on Iraq, the justifications for which were all lies?
You're not painting a very good picture of yourself on this message board jlew24asu.
Just to complete the picture, after Mussolini was overthrown in July 43 and after the armistice of 8 September 1943, only the Repubblica di Salo' - a town near Verona - was Nazi Germany's puppet state. Italy was then in the throes of a civil war between resistance fighters and those still with allegiance to the Fascist Party.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Social_Republic
it has nothing to do with the government. Iwas there and they hate americans IMO.
am I supposed to give a fuck how people paint my picture? what a stupid thing to say.
I have gone to several pj shows with many members of this board. dont you worry about me. since I'm not a raging liberal who thinks american is wrong in everything they do, then should I be afraid? loose sleep at night? laughable.
You obviously don't.
Edit: 'They hate Americans' is quite a broad sweeping statement.
Too funny, I'd hate Americans too if they kept saying "fuck you" to me.
naděje umírá poslední
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
BINGO!!! finally an intelligent statement. I have my own opinions. since most dont agree with mine views of America, means i'm a bad person?
like Eddie said. Fuck 'em
How eloquent.... lost for words, are you?
Edit: The French are far from hating the americans... they hate the stereotype which you seem to represent, they hate the american government and what it has done in 'everyone's' name.....
not at all. I think my statement sums it up.
I don't use that rhetoric against Americans as a whole, I don't have a problem with any nationality per se:
I don't dislike Germans - but obviously hate Nazi's and facists of any country, modern Germany is light years away from that.
I don't dislike Americans - just ignorant, xenophobes of any nationality, it just so happens there tend to be quite a few Americans that fit that category...
I don't believe any sweeping statement against a nationality, sex or creed it's all crap, get to know the individual.
And I do speak some German
Each generation has to learn from the past not re-live it...
Troubled souls unite, we got ourselves tonight...
Astoria, Dublin, Reading 06
Katowice, Wembley 07
SBE, Manchester, O2 09
Hyde Park 10
Manchester 1&2 12
This is just g'bye for now...
Eddie would actually be embarassed by you... he'd be more likely to say fuck YOU...
Troubled souls unite, we got ourselves tonight...
Astoria, Dublin, Reading 06
Katowice, Wembley 07
SBE, Manchester, O2 09
Hyde Park 10
Manchester 1&2 12
This is just g'bye for now...
But my point of starting this thread was to point out that 3/4's of the German military machine was destroyed on the Eastern front, and that therefore the 'WORLD' owes more to them for defeating the Nazi's than it does to the U.S or any other country for that matter, regardless of everyones contribution. I was putting things into perspective. I.e, it's a fact that 9 out of every 10 German soldiers were killed on Russian soil. These statistics speak for themselves. It's quite plain and simple to me. Most people have been somewhat defensive of their country's part in World war 2 on this board after I posted some of these details. I don't know why this is. I personally couldn't give a fuck where England, or Britain stands in the order of things. I was merely pointing out some historical facts relating to the war in response to some typical U.S jingoism - 'you'd all be talking German now if it wasn't for America'. My immediate and simple response to such a comment is "Bollocks!"
Believe it or not, I respect this attitude. I actually think it was Kurt Cobain who once said 'There's nothing more therapeutic than a well placed "Fuck it!" Wise words indeed.
I still don't agree with your fuck the French comment though. I'm an Englishman who happens to like the French. A rare thing.
That was Piazzale Loreto in Milano, if I remember correctly. That episode is considered one of the low points in the Italian WWII civil war (FYI, some argue that it was not an actual civil war), with the summary execution and desecration of the bodies of Mussolini and his lover, Claretta Petacci.
As for the Resistance fighters, my point was merely to underline their contribution in the war effort as well.
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
You will find that not only in France but in other parts of Europe and the world the view of the American government (key word, government - one can distinguish between that and its people) is not very favourable, to use an understatement, after the US government's foreign policy decisions squandered all the universal support it had garnered because of 9/11.
I think that could be the problem. people don't distinguish the difference. o well. lets not go off topic.