Did the U.S defeat Hitlers Germany?

sponger

evenkat wrote:

So if the Europeans were speaking German right now it's more than likely so would we.

The rest of your post is true true true and I've never disagreed with any of it. However, I just don't see it possible to really know with a high degree of certainty that the Germans, had they controlled Europe, could've successfully invaded and subjegated the US of A.

I just want to eliminate some confusion here. I'm not trying to argue that the brits would be speaking german had it not been for the americans.

I'm talking about the UK's freedom in general. As far as the UK's way of life is concerned, there should be no distinction made between the nazis and the russians.

Had the Russians defeated the nazis and taken europe for themselves, what would've stopped them from rolling right into Britain and sending everyone and their mothers off to the gulags?

So, again, nazis = russians. That's the reality of the situation.

So let me rephrase the premise of this thread: If it weren't for our granddaddys, the Brits would be communists.

dunkman

sponger wrote:

So let me rephrase the premise of this thread: If it weren't for our granddaddys, the Brits would be communists.

i very much doubt that.... and besides Scotland was the only country in europe that the Romans couldnt conquer... and if the romans couldnt do it, then russia couldnt either

sponger

dunkman1974 wrote:

why do americans go on about 'freedoms'... no-one is truly free... certainly americans are no more free than British, Australians or French... so why batter on about freedoms all the time

its a humorous quirk you guys have... makes me snigger

Your reluctance to include any communist bloc country just leads me to believe that you're not following what I'm getting at. The Russians did not take control of any of the countries you mentioned. In fact, the fact that you listed only countries that did not fall under Russian control just goes to prove my point, which is that you really do have a distorted sense of your own freedom. Some people don't know what they have until they've lost it...

sponger

dunkman1974 wrote:

i very much doubt that.... and besides Scotland was the only country in europe that the Romans couldnt conquer... and if the romans couldnt do it, then russia couldnt either

See, now we're getting somewhere. So, from your point of view, the Russians could never have taken britain because the scotts would've stopped them. ok...

dunkman

sponger wrote:

Your reluctance to include any communist bloc country just leads me to believe that you're not following what I'm getting at. The Russians did not take control of any of the countries you mentioned. In fact, the fact that you listed only countries that did not fall under Russian control just goes to prove my point, which is that you really do have a distorted sense of your own freedom. Some people don't know what they have until they've lost it...

i only gave 3 completely random nations as examples of being just as free as america, why you keep coming back to the UK being a latent communist state evades me

redrock

sponger wrote:

So let me rephrase the premise of this thread: If it weren't for our granddaddys, the Brits would be communists.

.. which is not automatically a bad thing! What is communism for you? I think the americans have a distorted view of what this is. Seeing we're having a problem agreeing what 'ally' means (accepted definition, eg. dictionary vs. subjective 'feeling' about the word), maybe we'll just run around in circles again!

redrock

sponger wrote:

Some people don't know what they have until they've lost it...

And Americans have lost a lot of it....

dunkman

sponger wrote:

See, now we're getting somewhere. So, from your point of view, the Russians could never have taken britain because the scotts would've stopped them. ok...

i'd love to think they couldn't but chances are if Soviet Union invaded then they'd conquer UK in time.... no matter how glorious our past is we'd be chewed up by them!

sponger

dunkman1974 wrote:

i only gave 3 completely random nations as examples of being just as free as america, why you keep coming back to the UK being a latent communist state evades me

If that's true that those countries were "randomly" selected, then let's throw , say, post WWII Lithuania or pre-1989 E. Germany, into your list.

Would you say that Americans and the British don't have freedoms that are greater than those of those countries?

tybird

Ahnimus wrote:

I always though Mussolini and Stalin were the biggest fools of WW2, and maybe Winston Churchhill. I guess none of them read Mein Kampf

Churchill read it........he spent most of the late 1930's railing against the rise of Hitler and Mussolini. The problem was that Churchill was not Prime Minister until after the actual fighting started. Neville Chamberlin was Prime Minister until sometime in 1940. By that time most of Western Europe had eaten a shit sandwich.

redrock

dunkman1974 wrote:

i'd love to think they couldn't but chances are if Soviet Union invaded then they'd conquer UK in time.... no matter how glorious our past is we'd be chewed up by them!

Dunk... just get hundreds of thousands of scots in their kilts and let them do what they need to do! Any invader would run away!

sponger

dunkman1974 wrote:

i'd love to think they couldn't but chances are if Soviet Union invaded then they'd conquer UK in time.... no matter how glorious our past is we'd be chewed up by them!

OK. Then what if Russia had taken control of europe after defeating the nazis? Would you say that Britain would've been next?

redrock

sponger wrote:

OK. Then what if Russia had taken control of europe after defeating the nazis? Would you say that Britain would've been next?

Why is it automatically assumed that Russia would have taken control of Europe? They had other 'problems' to deal with after the germans.... they were battling it out on several fronts!

dunkman

sponger wrote:

OK. Then what if Russia had taken control of europe after defeating the nazis? Would you say that Britain would've been next?

highly probable... but this is all subjective and is detracting from the main crux of this thread...

if the Russians had conquered all of Europe and it was a 'success' then lets just say America would have been shitting itself... even more than it did during the 50's... if the new USSR was all of europe it would have become a monumental superpower that might have had an eye on the States..

possible?

tybird

Ahnimus wrote:

That part of the world confuses me. I know it was the Brittish Royal Navy that was hitting the German's hard at sea. I was just saying that by the time the U.S. got involved Germany had done a number on the existing Allies. In other words, they were losing the war. I don't think America 'won' the war although the paratroopers were a great asset.

The British Navy did kick the shit out of the German surface assets prior to U.S. entry into the war.........the Bismarck was sunk in May of 1941 by a massive Royal Naval operation. The loss of that "flag" ship stung Hitler so badly that he ordered the other surface assets into what amounted to coastal patrol. The other heavy battleship that the German possessed, the Tirpitz, was sunk by RAF bombers while it idled in port.

However that being said, the German Navy's major role was U-boat warfare. That meant cutting off shipping to Great Britain. They achieved great success in this venture. Allied cooperation was what finally turned the tide against the U-boats.

Byrnzie

tybird wrote:

Allied cooperation was what finally turned the tide against the U-boats.

True! And the breaking of the Enigma code.

sponger

dunkman1974 wrote:

highly probable... but this is all subjective and is detracting from the main crux of this thread...

if the Russians had conquered all of Europe and it was a 'success' then lets just say America would have been shitting itself... even more than it did during the 50's... if the new USSR was all of europe it would have become a monumental superpower that might have had an eye on the States..

possible?

More than likely, but mutually assured destruction and the cold war would've kept US shores free from communist aggression. I don't think brits had the bomb back then. Or did they? Even if they did, that would've been because of American technology.

So, I'm making the following assertions:

1. W/O US involvement, Russia would have wrestled nazi-controlled europe from the nazis.
2. After doing so, it would've invaded Britain
3. Russia would've refrained from invading the US because the US had the bomb.
4. Assuming Britain got the bomb before being invaded by Russia, the bomb is a form of US involvement

So, if it weren't for our granddaddys, the brits would be commies. In this case, "our granddaddys" are the Manhattan project scientists....and Albert Einstein I guess. So, it turns out the brits owe their freedom to America and Albert Einstein.

sponger

redrock wrote:

Why is it automatically assumed that Russia would have taken control of Europe? They had other 'problems' to deal with after the germans.... they were battling it out on several fronts!

Several fronts? The axis consisted of the nazis, the italian fascists, and the japanese. Mussolini lost control in 1943, so that just leaves the nazis and the japanese. How active of a role was Russia playing in the fight against japan?

tybird

Byrnzie wrote:

True! And the breaking of the Enigma code.

I was actually thinking more along the lines of new tactics, new ships and better sonar. Yes, it is great to read someone's mail and know their plans.....but in the case of a U-boat or a Wolf Pack, it's not easy to find them and sink them in the open ocean. In unrestricted submarine warfare, the individual U-boats were like the pirate raiders of yore.........they were just wandering the Atlantic looking for prey. It was not a dance directed by communication from Berlin.

redrock

sponger wrote:

Several fronts? The axis consisted of the nazis, the italian fascists, and the japanese. Mussolini lost control in 1943, so that just leaves the nazis and the japanese. How active of a role was Russia playing in the fight against japan?

OK battling should have been 'battling'. Though allies, they had china to worry about. - Unnatural allies, and when the alliance didn't serve it's purpose anymore, they would have turned back to their good old ways...