What would the U.S be like today if it hadn't gained independence from the British?

Godfather.

Byrnzie wrote:

What would the U.S be like today if it hadn't gained independence from the British??

Discuss....

wow things would be different for sure, during WWII when Germany was sending buzz bombs and rockets to England I believe the US helped in a big way to end that, we'd have to wonder what would England, the US and germany be like today(not to mention borders) during those days (as today) many countrys deponded on each other to survive world war.
just the thought of what would be is mind boggling,the effects would go beyond the US today.
if someone has already said this I apoligize for not reading all the posts.

Godfather.

Idris

Godfather. wrote:

Byrnzie wrote:

What would the U.S be like today if it hadn't gained independence from the British??

Discuss....

wow things would be different for sure, during WWII when Germany was sending buzz bombs and rockets to England I believe the US helped in a big way to end that, we'd have to wonder what would England, the US and germany be like today(not to mention borders) during those days (as today) many countrys deponded on each other to survive world war.
just the thought of what would be is mind boggling,the effects would go beyond the US today.
if someone has already said this I apoligize for not reading all the posts.

Godfather.

Some nice depth in that thought. The Potentiality and Actuality of what 'if'

We should probably start at searching for the things that would still be the same, so constants throughout history. Greed probably is a major issue, as the potentials coming from a persons green can reach quite far, far beyond ones own capacity to handle that abundance we 'want' so desperately and greed has been a major factor in negative actions by empires/governments/people

Would our ability to handle difficult situations be different? Would we be running after the same things we are now?

What is the cause for most of the current/major issues facing the world now? If you take the current dominant force in the world (USA) now out of the equation, how different would the landscape be?

gimmesometruth27

we would probably still be sending back sugar cane, tobacco, and spices....

Who Princess

Jason P wrote:

whoprincess wrote:

Texas and most of the Southwest would still belong to Mexico or maybe even Spain. So we'd be speaking Spanish around here and the wild west would probably still be pretty wild, courtesy of drug cartels. :P

Uh, I've worked in Texas and they are speaking Spanish around there. :shh:

Srsly? :eh: :wtf:

:P

tybird

1) The course of the Napoleonic Wars would flowed quite differently. With no U.S. to purchase the Louisiana Territory, Napoleon would lose a big chunk of the money he used to wage war across Europe. These wars would have been the first world war as the British New World colonies had a go at the French New World colonies here on this side of the pond. The conflict would have greater ramifications here in the New World, if Napoleon conquered Spain in this re-imagined setting. That is due to the Spanish holdings in the Americas joining the fight on the French side. How this issue works out is the key to the future of the continent under continued British rule.

2) Slavery would be the next question facing these colonies and the Motherland. Would Great Britain be as quick on the draw to end the slave trade with the American colonies as a piece of the Empire? The American South was under-developed and under-populated at this time, in comparison to the eastern seaboard. Without the slaves and their labor, very little money was to be made from the region at that time. Would this region see a greater influx of settlers if the Crown held onto the colonies? Would such an increase of citizens also meant an increase in industry and less reliance on agriculture?

3) As to the native issue, is Great Britain's record on this any better than what occurred in the U.S.? The march of white dudes across the continent would have occurred regardless of what flag was flying over the colonies. There was simply too much money to be made just from the natural resources of the American continent not to have Europeans plundering it. In the case of the natives in the U.S. South, they would have stood in the way of the exploitation of the long-leaf pines that covered the region at the very least. Long-leaf pines were the perfect trees to feed the Empire's unending lust for naval stores....pitch, turpentine e.g.

4) The Mexico question is a hard one figure as it changed hands between France and Spain during its history. The victor in the re-imagined Napoleonic Wars would probably be the sovereign of Mexico.

5) Conflict between Tsarist Russia and Great Britain? The U.S. purchased Alaska from Russia....would Great Britain spring for the "Final Frontier" or would there have been martial issues between the empires? Russia once held the Pacific coastline down to modern-day Oregon.

tybird

Byrnzie wrote:

I wonder if there would still be a wild west? And would Buffalo Bill have been known as Buffalo William?

A lot of the energy that made the Wild West wild was a result of the Civil War.....a lot of soldiers with no homes to return to....a bunch of firearms readily available....a bit of anger bouncing around in the zeitgeist...half of the nation in ruin.....then again, one would have to wonder what nation owned the bulk of the west in our new world...does France keep the British from going west of the Mississippi? Does Spain maintain an imperial presence with Mexico, which included California and Texas?

The U.S. transcontinental railroad was not built until the 1860-70s.....it was the mechanism that opened the Great Plains, Colorado, Nevada and parts of Arizona. It added a major element of the wild in Wild West as it carried saloons, brothels and gambling dens along with it in its westward movement. That's where the phrase "hell on wheels" had its birth. If Canada and the current U.S. belonged to one master, where would a transcontinental rail network begin....where would it run? Would it be possible to build it if Britain did not own the bulk of the continent? This also raises the question of aboriginal relations. Would British leadership find a better way to handle the relationship?

zarocat

A Surprise Left wrote:

Byrnzie wrote:

Tornoto? Where's that...Japan?

oooops...I meant Toronto! Its supposed to be the most multicultural city on earth.....or so I'm told.

It certainly is. I don't know if you took a head count that it would be but if you had a birds eye view of the city, with coloured lines separating the nieghbourhoods, i.e. Little Italy, Greek Town, China Town, etc., you would have a mirrored image of Europe to Asia. The Russians, the Jewish, natives, the Koreans etc., etc., all have community based neighbourhoods (sections of the city in which they dwell) which welcome everyone with open arms. Just don't fuck around and you're good. Torontonians don't like much bullshit/Nonsense.
Brilliant in my opinion.
There is a homeless problem though and it is noticeable especially in the business district. Ironic, eh ?

dimitrispearljam

would speak like Scotish

mickeyrat

tybird wrote:

1) The course of the Napoleonic Wars would flowed quite differently. With no U.S. to purchase the Louisiana Territory, Napoleon would lose a big chunk of the money he used to wage war across Europe. These wars would have been the first world war as the British New World colonies had a go at the French New World colonies here on this side of the pond. The conflict would have greater ramifications here in the New World, if Napoleon conquered Spain in this re-imagined setting. That is due to the Spanish holdings in the Americas joining the fight on the French side. How this issue works out is the key to the future of the continent under continued British rule.

2) Slavery would be the next question facing these colonies and the Motherland. Would Great Britain be as quick on the draw to end the slave trade with the American colonies as a piece of the Empire? The American South was under-developed and under-populated at this time, in comparison to the eastern seaboard. Without the slaves and their labor, very little money was to be made from the region at that time. Would this region see a greater influx of settlers if the Crown held onto the colonies? Would such an increase of citizens also meant an increase in industry and less reliance on agriculture?

3) As to the native issue, is Great Britain's record on this any better than what occurred in the U.S.? The march of white dudes across the continent would have occurred regardless of what flag was flying over the colonies. There was simply too much money to be made just from the natural resources of the American continent not to have Europeans plundering it. In the case of the natives in the U.S. South, they would have stood in the way of the exploitation of the long-leaf pines that covered the region at the very least. Long-leaf pines were the perfect trees to feed the Empire's unending lust for naval stores....pitch, turpentine e.g.

4) The Mexico question is a hard one figure as it changed hands between France and Spain during its history. The victor in the re-imagined Napoleonic Wars would probably be the sovereign of Mexico.

5) Conflict between Tsarist Russia and Great Britain? The U.S. purchased Alaska from Russia....would Great Britain spring for the "Final Frontier" or would there have been martial issues between the empires? Russia once held the Pacific coastline down to modern-day Oregon.

Is there going to be a test, teacher?

Awesome, thughtful post. raises pertinent questions.

Horos

Godfather. wrote:

Byrnzie wrote:

What would the U.S be like today if it hadn't gained independence from the British??

Discuss....

wow things would be different for sure, during WWII when Germany was sending buzz bombs and rockets to England I believe the US helped in a big way to end that, we'd have to wonder what would England, the US and germany be like today(not to mention borders) during those days (as today) many countrys deponded on each other to survive world war.
just the thought of what would be is mind boggling,the effects would go beyond the US today.
if someone has already said this I apoligize for not reading all the posts.

Godfather.

We'd all be speaking German.

Byrnzie

Grandpa Horos wrote:

We'd all be speaking German.

Why?

tybird

mickeyrat wrote:

tybird wrote:

1) The course of the Napoleonic Wars would flowed quite differently. With no U.S. to purchase the Louisiana Territory, Napoleon would lose a big chunk of the money he used to wage war across Europe. These wars would have been the first world war as the British New World colonies had a go at the French New World colonies here on this side of the pond. The conflict would have greater ramifications here in the New World, if Napoleon conquered Spain in this re-imagined setting. That is due to the Spanish holdings in the Americas joining the fight on the French side. How this issue works out is the key to the future of the continent under continued British rule.

2) Slavery would be the next question facing these colonies and the Motherland. Would Great Britain be as quick on the draw to end the slave trade with the American colonies as a piece of the Empire? The American South was under-developed and under-populated at this time, in comparison to the eastern seaboard. Without the slaves and their labor, very little money was to be made from the region at that time. Would this region see a greater influx of settlers if the Crown held onto the colonies? Would such an increase of citizens also meant an increase in industry and less reliance on agriculture?

3) As to the native issue, is Great Britain's record on this any better than what occurred in the U.S.? The march of white dudes across the continent would have occurred regardless of what flag was flying over the colonies. There was simply too much money to be made just from the natural resources of the American continent not to have Europeans plundering it. In the case of the natives in the U.S. South, they would have stood in the way of the exploitation of the long-leaf pines that covered the region at the very least. Long-leaf pines were the perfect trees to feed the Empire's unending lust for naval stores....pitch, turpentine e.g.

4) The Mexico question is a hard one figure as it changed hands between France and Spain during its history. The victor in the re-imagined Napoleonic Wars would probably be the sovereign of Mexico.

5) Conflict between Tsarist Russia and Great Britain? The U.S. purchased Alaska from Russia....would Great Britain spring for the "Final Frontier" or would there have been martial issues between the empires? Russia once held the Pacific coastline down to modern-day Oregon.

Is there going to be a test, teacher?

Awesome, thughtful post. raises pertinent questions.

The issue of a test will depend on your behavior from this point on.....

tybird

Grandpa Horos wrote:

Godfather. wrote:

Byrnzie wrote:

What would the U.S be like today if it hadn't gained independence from the British??

Discuss....

wow things would be different for sure, during WWII when Germany was sending buzz bombs and rockets to England I believe the US helped in a big way to end that, we'd have to wonder what would England, the US and germany be like today(not to mention borders) during those days (as today) many countrys deponded on each other to survive world war.
just the thought of what would be is mind boggling,the effects would go beyond the US today.
if someone has already said this I apoligize for not reading all the posts.

Godfather.

We'd all be speaking German.

Probably not.....there was not a united Germany till after the American Civil War.....1870s....the key, once again, is the Napoleonic Wars....without the US to help fund the French war machine, what does Europe look like in 1815? Does an influx of American troops help bottle-up Napoleon early in the game? Do the German states unite minus the "Blood & Iron"? Does Spain remain a player post-Napoleon? Does Germany get to express her Imperial status with additional colonies in Africa due to the British mandate to protect North America and India (Instead of just India being the colonial crown jewel?)?

Godfather.

Idris wrote:

Godfather. wrote:

Byrnzie wrote:

What would the U.S be like today if it hadn't gained independence from the British??

Discuss....

wow things would be different for sure, during WWII when Germany was sending buzz bombs and rockets to England I believe the US helped in a big way to end that, we'd have to wonder what would England, the US and germany be like today(not to mention borders) during those days (as today) many countrys depended on each other to survive world war.
just the thought of what would be is mind boggling,the effects would go beyond the US today.
if someone has already said this I apologize for not reading all the posts.

Godfather.

Some nice depth in that thought. The Potentiality and Actuality of what 'if'

We should probably start at searching for the things that would still be the same, so constants throughout history. Greed probably is a major issue, as the potentials coming from a persons green can reach quite far, far beyond ones own capacity to handle that abundance we 'want' so desperately and greed has been a major factor in negative actions by empires/governments/people

Would our ability to handle difficult situations be different? Would we be running after the same things we are now?

What is the cause for most of the current/major issues facing the world now? If you take the current dominant force in the world (USA) now out of the equation, how different would the landscape be?

thinking about your comment of constants I have to wonder if the "Rebel" groups that left had stayed.. would a civil war taken place in England over tax's or king's and Queens that ruled for generations with an iron fist,
man the possibility' s are endless just knowing what American's did what they did to form one country and one government (federal) ...what if these wild and crazy mutants stayed and raised hell in England to bring the change they wanted ? what a history book that would make !...no President's only birth right ?...just crazy !!!

Godfather.

Godfather.

Grandpa Horos wrote:

Godfather. wrote:

Byrnzie wrote:

What would the U.S be like today if it hadn't gained independence from the British??

Discuss....

wow things would be different for sure, during WWII when Germany was sending buzz bombs and rockets to England I believe the US helped in a big way to end that, we'd have to wonder what would England, the US and germany be like today(not to mention borders) during those days (as today) many countrys deponded on each other to survive world war.
just the thought of what would be is mind boggling,the effects would go beyond the US today.
if someone has already said this I apoligize for not reading all the posts.

Godfather.

We'd all be speaking German.

with blond hair and blue eye's

Godfather.

Godfather.

Byrnzie wrote:

What would the U.S be like today if it hadn't gained independence from the British??

Discuss....

what a great topic Byrnzie, endless thought and possibility's.

Godfather.

tybird

Godfather. wrote:

Idris wrote:

Godfather. wrote:

wow things would be different for sure, during WWII when Germany was sending buzz bombs and rockets to England I believe the US helped in a big way to end that, we'd have to wonder what would England, the US and germany be like today(not to mention borders) during those days (as today) many countrys depended on each other to survive world war.
just the thought of what would be is mind boggling,the effects would go beyond the US today.
if someone has already said this I apologize for not reading all the posts.

Godfather.

Some nice depth in that thought. The Potentiality and Actuality of what 'if'

We should probably start at searching for the things that would still be the same, so constants throughout history. Greed probably is a major issue, as the potentials coming from a persons green can reach quite far, far beyond ones own capacity to handle that abundance we 'want' so desperately and greed has been a major factor in negative actions by empires/governments/people

Would our ability to handle difficult situations be different? Would we be running after the same things we are now?

What is the cause for most of the current/major issues facing the world now? If you take the current dominant force in the world (USA) now out of the equation, how different would the landscape be?

thinking about your comment of constants I have to wonder if the "Rebel" groups that left had stayed.. would a civil war taken place in England over tax's or king's and Queens that ruled for generations with an iron fist,
man the possibility' s are endless just knowing what American's did what they did to form one country and one government (federal) ...what if these wild and crazy mutants stayed and raised hell in England to bring the change they wanted ? what a history book that would make !...no President's only birth right ?...just crazy !!!

Godfather.[/quote]
The one problem with your ideas of "rebel" groups staying in Britain is that the leaders of the American rebellion were not really a group that associated with each other outside of the cause of the rebellion. The American colonies were generally started by different groups of people with their own specific goals....most often to make themselves richer. The "rebel" groups that actually left Britain together were bound and influenced more by religion than any change in the political system or taxation issues. So, the majority of American colonists were not where they were because of political issues....they were chasing the pound.

tybird

Godfather. wrote:

Byrnzie wrote:

What would the U.S be like today if it hadn't gained independence from the British??

Discuss....

what a great topic Byrnzie, endless thought and possibility's.

Godfather.

Yes, give the man some props

lukin2006

Might actually have health care that

pjhawks

we'd actually care about soccer