San Fran to ban plastic grocery bags

farfromglorified

soulsinging wrote:

but, but a dozen such measures in a lot of major cities can add up.

Into a dozen measures, yes. Into something that has an appreciable effect on oil consumption or the environment? That seems unproven here. It's just assumed, and that flies in the face of the "analysis" you mentioned.

and more importantly, a society committed to environmental awareness can make a difference.

How committed is that society really when it has to force itself? Seriously.

we made space travel a priority in the 60s and were on the moon in less than a decade. you start with small steps like this and build up to awareness of what we're doing to the planet, and i have a feeling we could make a huge difference in terms of safer and smarter resource use. but you have to start by building populist support cos we are governed by majorities. so you pass small measures like this to get people going "oh, ok, environmental protection is easy" before building up to wider initiatives like alternative fuels. it's kind of an ad-hoc band-aid, but it is a step in the right direction.

I disagree. It's a step in one direction, yes. But you seem to be assuming some singular direction here is the answer. Are paper bags the right direction for the environment? In some cases, sure. In other cases, no. Are paper bags the right direction for oil consumption? It certainly doesn't look like it. Are paper bags the right direction for my arthritic father who probably is a lot more comfortable with plastic? Probably not.

Now, if consumers are able to make their own choices for what works best for them, does that not imply multiple standards which in turn implies multiple directions?

it makes perfect sense. cos like i said, most people dont give a second thought to what bag they're being handed. there's not a demand for plastic bags.

There's no demand? Then why are they used 80% of the time?

they're writing checks and thinking about the next errand and trying to keep their kid from walking out with a candy bar. the use of plastic bags is undoubtedly a business decision for reasons unknown... perhaps the ease of storing large quantities of them.

Ease of use. Ease of storage. Ease of production. Cost. The reasons are many. And if you're actually considering a "cost-benefit" analysis, wouldn't the benefits be relevant? Or is this only a liberal cost-benefit analysis wherein only costs matter?

but they are consumed becos customers have their head elsewhere and simply arent thinking about where the bag comes from.

I really think that's an argument of convenience, though I have nothing but anecdotal evidence to counter it. People are constantly given a "paper or plastic" choice and choose plastic 80% of the time.

they will consume whatever is given to them.

Do you not see the problem here, given the issue at hand? Do you not see how this law plays into this and ends up contributing more to the problem?

soulsinging

farfromglorified wrote:

How committed is that society really when it has to force itself? Seriously.

how committed is committed enough? do i have to be out there on the street stumping for darwin to say i support teaching evolution in schools and vote based on that?

farfromglorified wrote:

There's no demand? Then why are they used 80% of the time?

Ease of use. Ease of storage. Ease of production. Cost. The reasons are many. And if you're actually considering a "cost-benefit" analysis, wouldn't the benefits be relevant? Or is this only a liberal cost-benefit analysis wherein only costs matter?

I really think that's an argument of convenience, though I have nothing but anecdotal evidence to counter it. People are constantly given a "paper or plastic" choice and choose plastic 80% of the time.

are these hypothetical numbers? im assuming they are so i will respond accordingly... i think plastic is used far more becos that's what businesses prefer, it's easier on them. i think when given the choice, most people pick plastic becos it is what they are used to. maybe there are some benefits to plastic for some people, but i've never heard of someone being upset at having to use a paper bag. cost-benefits weigh comparative value. is the added convenience worth the cost in waste disposal problems? is the inconvenience of having to use paper worth the benefit of alleviating those problems? again, i dont know enough to say exactly what the various benefits/costs are, but if the voters of san fran feel that the benefits are worth it, that is their prerogative. i dont know if paper is better than plastic for the environment, i never studied it. but worst case scenario... it backfires and they repeal the law. no harm done, just a failed experiment.

farfromglorified wrote:

Do you not see the problem here, given the issue at hand? Do you not see how this law plays into this and ends up contributing more to the problem?

im not sure what issue at hand you're referring to. so no, i dont see how a ban on plastic bags is a bad thing or what problem it worsens.

farfromglorified

soulsinging wrote:

how committed is committed enough? do i have to be out there on the street stumping for darwin to say i support teaching evolution in schools and vote based on that?

Hehe...no. You only need to be committed enough to say "paper please".

are these hypothetical numbers? im assuming they are so i will respond accordingly... i think plastic is used far more becos that's what businesses prefer, it's easier on them. i think when given the choice, most people pick plastic becos it is what they are used to. maybe there are some benefits to plastic for some people, but i've never heard of someone being upset at having to use a paper bag. cost-benefits weigh comparative value. is the added convenience worth the cost in waste disposal problems? is the inconvenience of having to use paper worth the benefit of alleviating those problems? again, i dont know enough to say exactly what the various benefits/costs are, but if the voters of san fran feel that the benefits are worth it, that is their prerogative. i dont know if paper is better than plastic for the environment, i never studied it. but worst case scenario... it backfires and they repeal the law. no harm done, just a failed experiment.

How can people pick plastic because it is what they are used to? Plastic bags have only experienced wide-spread use for what, 15 years?

We're kind of arguing guesses here, however. I don't think either of us has a leg to stand on when we start getting into people's motivations and things like "demand for plastic bags".

im not sure what issue at hand you're referring to. so no, i dont see how a ban on plastic bags is a bad thing or what problem it worsens.

What kind of "committed society" do you get when individuals simply off-load their decisions to the government? I mean, how are people ever going to make wise choices when they simply shun the act of choosing? How long until those they off-load those choices onto simply take full advantage of the power they've been given? That's my beef here. I'm not trying to make out a plastic bag ban to be some kind of fascistic or intensely oppressive thing. It's not. It's just the mindset behind these kinds of actions and their contradictory and convenient justifications that baffle me.

polaris

surferdude wrote:

What am I supposed to use to gather my garbage in if not the plastic bags I get from grocery stores? I guess I'll have to start buying plastic garbage bas that are way over packaged. I guess they figure this is good for the environment. What f***in' morons.

I guess the idea of recycle is too advanced for San Francisco. Why recycle when you can outlaw.

you should be diverting most of your garbage anyways ... odds are that you are not and that you are sending too much stuff to the landfill ... (odds being that this is the case for most people - not necessarily you personally per se)

it's pretty obvious that there is an excess of plastic bags in this world ... banning them only indicates to me that people are too stupid to stop using them to begin with ...

gue_barium

polaris wrote:

we need a ban on bottled water!

I agree.

soulsinging

farfromglorified wrote:

Hehe...no. You only need to be committed enough to say "paper please".

a lot of places dont offer paper anymore.

farfromglorified wrote:

How can people pick plastic because it is what they are used to? Plastic bags have only experienced wide-spread use for what, 15 years?

We're kind of arguing guesses here, however. I don't think either of us has a leg to stand on when we start getting into people's motivations and things like "demand for plastic bags".

perhaps. but the internet didnt even become available until barely 15 years ago. and dyou remember what cell phones were like then? people can become dependent/used to things pretty quickly.

farfromglorified wrote:

What kind of "committed society" do you get when individuals simply off-load their decisions to the government? I mean, how are people ever going to make wise choices when they simply shun the act of choosing? How long until those they off-load those choices onto simply take full advantage of the power they've been given? That's my beef here. I'm not trying to make out a plastic bag ban to be some kind of fascistic or intensely oppressive thing. It's not. It's just the mindset behind these kinds of actions and their contradictory and convenient justifications that baffle me.

becos government is created to handle those sorts of things. people need enforcement mechanisms to protect their interests. if there were no police and some guy stole all your money, how would you get it back? if there were no garbage service, how much valuable time and effort would be wasted by people driving their trash to dumps. given that you spent so much effort defending the concept of contracts against gue... surely the concept of social contract is not that foreign? this is, however, why i prefer such decisions be made at a local level. if the citizens of san fran want to build a community that is eco-friendly by whatever criteria they want to use, then let them do it. that is their social contract... "we're going to not allow plastic bags, we will allow gay marriage, blah blah blah." in return for living by the rules set by the community, you get the benefits of that community... waste disposal, or whatever. this is nothing new, it has been part of every human life going back as far as us being monkeys that were part of troops. you live by the rules and get the benefit of the society. sometimes things dont go your way, but the benefits of being part of it outweigh the cost to certain inconveniences to you. when the benefits cease to exceed the cost, you can move and go elsewhere.

gue_barium

Anchorage Daily News May 2, 2003

Towns bag 'Paper or plastic?' query
BANS: In some parts of rural Alaska, grocery bags are outlawed before they
become airborne trash.
By JOEL GAY

Outside the Western Alaska village of Emmonak, white plastic shopping bags
used to start appearing 15 miles from town. They blew out of the dump and
rolled across the tundra like tumbleweeds. In Galena, they snagged in the
trees and drifted into the Yukon River. Outside Kotlik, on the Yukon Delta,
bags were found tangled around salmon and seals.

No more. All three villages banned the bags.

"It's working out good here," said Peter Captain Sr., chief of the tribal
council in Galena, where the city banned stores from using plastic bags in
1998. "You used to find plastic bags all over the place, up in the trees.
... But you don't see that now."

At least 30 communities statewide have banned plastic bags. They have joined
a growing list of places around the world that decided the bags' nuisance
outweighs their convenience. Ireland and Taiwan started taxing bags to
curtail their use. South Africa banned them completely, as did Bangladesh
after devastating floods were attributed to stray plastic bags blocking
drains.

In Alaska, the expansion of bag bans shows no signs of slowing down. Other
communities are now considering prohibitions, including the biggest city off
the road system, Bethel.

"They're horrible. They're all over," said Bethel City Councilman Jerry
Drake. Once, he said, driving to the airport outside town, "in a one-mile
stretch I counted over 200 bags." Looking out his living room window earlier
this week, he counted a dozen.

In Bethel as elsewhere, plastic bags flutter out of trash bins or ravens
peck them loose. They drift and lodge in bushes and trees, dot the roadsides
and collect on the trackless tundra.

Several years ago, Bethel public works director Clair Grifka said he looked
out his office window and saw an enormous flock of snow geese. Then he
realized it was 800 to 1,000 errant bags.

Drake's proposal would ban Bethel stores but not restaurants from using
plastic bags, essentially requiring them to use paper. Elsewhere, shoppers
have been encouraged to provide their own canvas or nylon bags, though in
some paper-only villages, shoppers hoard plastic bags and reuse them,
village officials have said. Violating the Bethel ban could cost up to $500.

The Bethel council largely supports the proposed ban, members said this
week. Public hearings later this month will gauge local opinion, but Drake
and other people believe the council will put the decision before Bethel
voters in October. Drake said he's sure it will be approved.

"In my four years on the council, I've never heard people talk to me like
this" about any other community issue, he said.

One reason it's such a hot topic is that the council approved a ban two
years ago only to see a voter initiative repeal the measure months later.
This time, the ban will stick, Drake predicts.

"The only reason it got repealed was that it was a poorly written ballot
measure, where yes meant no and no meant yes," he said. "I had to read the
ballot about three times before I realized what was going on with it, and I
knew all about it."

Others say that banning plastic bags is the wrong way to solve Bethel's
trash problem. Restaurant owner Yolanda Jorgensen sponsored the repeal
initiative two years ago and said she'll work to defeat the ban again this
fall. There are many angles to attack, she said.

Paper bags cost more to buy and ship to Western Alaska and take up more
storage space, a precious commodity for many businesses, Jorgensen said.
They're weak when wet and are hard to carry. And plastic can be recycled but
the City Council isn't talking about that, she said.

Jorgensen doesn't dispute they're ugly but added, "There are a lot more
things littering our tundra than plastic bags."

Many of Bethel's bags bear the distinctive logo of Alaska Commercial Co.,
the biggest store in town. Manager David Hicks said the store will abide by
the community's vote, but he fears that Bethel's poor will suffer most if
plastic bags vanish.

"It'll make a difference to the people that have to walk a lot," he said,
which includes many of the city's residents and visitors. Bethel is a city,
not a tiny village, Hicks said. "It's very difficult to walk home with more
than a night's worth of groceries in a paper bag, whereas you can walk home
with quite a bit in a plastic bag."

Banning plastic wasn't easy in Emmonak or Galena, officials said, and
attempts in other villages have failed because plastic bags have loyal fans.
Last year in Alakanuk, the City Council decided against a ban because of the
bags' utility, said village planner Stephanie Ayunerak. Not only are they
more convenient for carrying groceries, "they make good freezer bags," she
recalled council members saying.

Ban supporters, however, can point to places like Galena. The Yukon River
village also feared losing its plastic bags, but according to Huhndorf's
Store owner Max Huhndorf, "it's worked out OK. It took a little bit of
adjustment, but we did it."

The additional cost hasn't been an issue, because people started using
canvas bags and the store's empty cardboard boxes, he said.

"A lot of people will put their stuff under their arm and carry it home They
say, 'We don't want a bag.' It still costs us more (for paper bags), but in
the long run it's for the best," Huhndorf said.

In Emmonak, the village corporation store pays a nickel for each paper bag
returned, said Albert Westlock of the tribal council.

"You see a whole bunch of little kids making money after (retrieving) those
paper bags."

If the bag bans spread, there may soon be a bounty for plastic bags too.
Bill Stokes, the rural environmental specialist for the Department of
Environmental Conservation, promotes recycling plastic bags into valuable
crafts using nothing more than a size 6 crochet hook.

He first saw the method practiced in Mekoryuk in 1993, but it has spread
statewide. People cut plastic bags into strips, then crochet them into
backpacks, handbags, sweat bath mats and baskets, some with ornate Yup'ik or
Tlingit designs.

"It's nothing short of miraculous," he said.

It can be lucrative too. Shoulder bags have sold for as much as $300 and
often fetch $50, he said.

Nevertheless, Stokes still encourages bag bans, and the philosophy seems to
be spreading, he said.

"Village by village by village, they're just really tired of them."

farfromglorified

soulsinging wrote:

a lot of places dont offer paper anymore.

I'm curious the percentage on that. I've never been to a grocery store that doesn't offer both. A lot of gas stations are plastic only here, however. Regardless, you can always turn down the bag.

perhaps. but the internet didnt even become available until barely 15 years ago. and dyou remember what cell phones were like then? people can become dependent/used to things pretty quickly.

Hehe...yes. They become dependent on things they like, things that have value to them. Banning the internet and cell phones would also do much for the environment.

becos government is created to handle those sorts of things. people need enforcement mechanisms to protect their interests.

Sorry, this is ridiculous. Government was not and is not created to handle regulation of your bag consumption. And people don't need "enforcement mechanisms" in this issue in any way, shape or form.

soulsinging

farfromglorified wrote:

Sorry, this is ridiculous. Government was not and is not created to handle regulation of your bag consumption. And people don't need "enforcement mechanisms" in this issue in any way, shape or form.

no they dont need it. but if they want it, why can they not tell their government to do it? you may think it unwise, but that doesn't mean it's immoral or anything.

gue_barium

farfromglorified wrote:

Sorry, this is ridiculous. Government was not and is not created to handle regulation of your bag consumption. And people don't need "enforcement mechanisms" in this issue in any way, shape or form.

Then why did they vote otherwise?

callen

farfromglorified wrote:

Government was not and is not created to handle regulation of your bag consumption. And people don't need "enforcement mechanisms" in this issue in any way, shape or form.

yea government was created to regulate behaviour...but unfortunately it is sometimes necessary to use them for such purposes.....people are generally lazy..and even if they know that plastic is bad for the enviornment....they won't change their ways...same as big vehicles. Another example is no smoking ordinances....no business wants to be the first to go no smoking..as they will loose business...but most are okay when everyones got to do it....

on this issue..kills me when I go into a store....Home Depot..Lowes perfect example...buy on bolt or whatever and they throw it into a bag....always tell them no bag needed as Its simply trash...clerks always looked confused. Anyhow....lived in Germany many years..and you always bring your own bag...plastic not offered.

surferdude

polaris wrote:

you should be diverting most of your garbage anyways ... odds are that you are not and that you are sending too much stuff to the landfill ... (odds being that this is the case for most people - not necessarily you personally per se)

it's pretty obvious that there is an excess of plastic bags in this world ... banning them only indicates to me that people are too stupid to stop using them to begin with ...

Actually I can get by with grocery bags for my garbage because I do sort and recycle. Banning these bags rather than charging for them does not solve anything. Replacing one problem with another is not solving anything.

I thought the mantra we were to adopt was "reduce, re-use, recycle". Not is seems to be "Ban It". Seems like a step backwards to getting to a sustainable solution. I guess some people just need more government intervention in their life to feel safe and secure. After all, ban it has been such a successful strategy in fighting drugs, I'm sure it will be just as effective at fighting pollution.

polaris

surferdude wrote:

Actually I can get by with grocery bags for my garbage because I do sort and recycle. Banning these bags rather than charging for them does not solve anything. Replacing one problem with another is not solving anything.

I thought the mantra we were to adopt was "reduce, re-use, recycle". Not is seems to be "Ban It". Seems like a step backwards to getting to a sustainable solution. I guess some people just need more government intervention in their life to feel safe and secure. After all, ban it has been such a successful strategy in fighting drugs, I'm sure it will be just as effective at fighting pollution.

well ... your diversion efficiency would depend on the number of bags you need a week ...

i'm not too sure why some are having difficulty with this ban - is it just the word that ticks people off ... we have bans on all kinds of things ... sometimes they work sometimes they don't ... and in this particular case - something has to be done about this excessive waste ... the majority of these bags end up in landfills and the energy required to produce them is excessive as well ...

we don't need these bags ... if people cared a bit more maybe there wouldn't need to be a ban but like in most instances - we don't give a rats ass ...

Abookamongstthemany

surferdude wrote:

Actually I can get by with grocery bags for my garbage because I do sort and recycle. Banning these bags rather than charging for them does not solve anything. Replacing one problem with another is not solving anything.

I thought the mantra we were to adopt was "reduce, re-use, recycle". Not is seems to be "Ban It". Seems like a step backwards to getting to a sustainable solution. I guess some people just need more government intervention in their life to feel safe and secure. After all, ban it has been such a successful strategy in fighting drugs, I'm sure it will be just as effective at fighting pollution.

'Excuse while I go page my bag dealer.' LOL

soulsinging

surferdude wrote:

Actually I can get by with grocery bags for my garbage because I do sort and recycle. Banning these bags rather than charging for them does not solve anything. Replacing one problem with another is not solving anything.

I thought the mantra we were to adopt was "reduce, re-use, recycle". Not is seems to be "Ban It". Seems like a step backwards to getting to a sustainable solution. I guess some people just need more government intervention in their life to feel safe and secure. After all, ban it has been such a successful strategy in fighting drugs, I'm sure it will be just as effective at fighting pollution.

im ok with charging for bags, but ffg would be just as opposed to a plastic tax. in fact, most americans would probly prefer not having the option to having to pay for it. im not going to lie, but they would flikely feel a tax is be more of a government intrustion into their lives than a ban on plastic bags. it's weird. but americans are pretty apathetic about everything until it comes to their wallet. you can deny them the choice and they won't notice or care outside of grumbling, but if you ask them to pay for the luxury they will scream about socialism and greedy government.

hippiemom

I hate those plastic bags, mostly because they seem to kill the brain cells of the clerks who have to handle them all day long. That's the only explanation I can come up with for why they won't put more than three items in a bag.

I'm in favor of forcing all groceries to get paper bags from the same place Trader Joe's gets theirs. Those are really nice paper bags.

I know, I'm a heartless commie bitch.

gue_barium

hippiemom wrote:

I hate those plastic bags, mostly because they seem to kill the brain cells of the clerks who have to handle them all day long. That's the only explanation I can come up with for why they won't put more than three items in a bag.

I'm in favor of forcing all groceries to get paper bags from the same place Trader Joe's gets theirs. Those are really nice paper bags.

I know, I'm a heartless commie bitch.

I think we should ban paper bags, too.

inmytree

Cosmo wrote:

I can't speak for anyone else... but, I when I'm doing the beach clean-up in the Spring and Summer, the things I pick up from the sand... cigarette butts, plastic straws and cup lids... and empty plastic bags from stores.
I rarely... if EVER... have picked up a store bought, pre-packaged, over packaged Hefty bag from the sand. I guess they don't usually find their way to our oceans via the storm drains and flood control systems.

haa haa haaaa...

This is very true...Damn, I swear, every time we go to the beach, I pick up a couple dozen cigarette butts, 3 or 4 plastic cups, and several plastic bags...

today, as I went to an appointment, I saw 2 plastic shopping bags blowing around...I bet everyone here, within the next 24 hours, can find a discarded shopping bag blowing around or stuck in a tree or stuck to the bottom of car...

inmytree

hippiemom wrote:

I hate those plastic bags, mostly because they seem to kill the brain cells of the clerks who have to handle them all day long. That's the only explanation I can come up with for why they won't put more than three items in a bag.

I'm in favor of forcing all groceries to get paper bags from the same place Trader Joe's gets theirs. Those are really nice paper bags.

I know, I'm a heartless commie bitch.

wow, you get 3 items per bag....down in these here parts, we get one item per bag...2 if they are a cleaning supply paired with a perishable food item...

norm

hippiemom wrote:

I hate those plastic bags, mostly because they seem to kill the brain cells of the clerks who have to handle them all day long. That's the only explanation I can come up with for why they won't put more than three items in a bag.

I'm in favor of forcing all groceries to get paper bags from the same place Trader Joe's gets theirs. Those are really nice paper bags.

I know, I'm a heartless commie bitch.

:DLOL:D

And the TJ bags are the best.