San Fran to ban plastic grocery bags
Jeanwah
Posts: 6,363
San Francisco to ban plastic grocery bags
POSTED: 9:39 p.m. EDT, March 27, 2007
SAN FRANCISCO, California (Reuters) -- San Francisco's Board of Supervisors voted Tuesday to become the first U.S. city to ban plastic bags from large supermarkets to help promote recycling.
Under the legislation, beginning in six months large supermarkets and drugstores will not be allowed to offer plastic bags made from petroleum products.
"Many [foreign] cities and nations have already implemented very similar legislation," said Ross Mirkarimi, the city legislator who championed the new law. "It's astounding that San Francisco would be the first U.S. city to follow suit."
"I am hopeful that other U.S. cities will also adopt similar legislation," he said. "Why wait for the federal government to enact legislation that gets to the core of this problem when local governments can just step up to the plate?"
The city's Department of the Environment said San Francisco uses 181 million plastic grocery bags annually. Plans dating back a decade to encourage recycling of the bags have largely failed, with shoppers returning just one percent of bags, said department spokesman Mark Westland.
Mirkarimi said the ban would save 450,000 gallons of oil a year and remove the need to send 1,400 tons of debris now sent annually to landfills. The new rules would, however, allow recyclable plastic bags, which are not widely used today.
A spokesman for San Francisco Mayor Gavin Newsom, who must approve or veto the legislation, called it sensible. "Chances are good that he is going to sign it," said Nathan Ballard.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/03/27/environment.baggs.reut/index.html
I think this is great. My fave grocery store, Hannaford, sells cloth bags that I've bought and reuse whenever I go to the store. I ask them all the time if others use them, they usually say "not many". They also I know many people reuse the plastic grocery bags, but the majority of bags seem to just get thrown out and take up space in landfills.
POSTED: 9:39 p.m. EDT, March 27, 2007
SAN FRANCISCO, California (Reuters) -- San Francisco's Board of Supervisors voted Tuesday to become the first U.S. city to ban plastic bags from large supermarkets to help promote recycling.
Under the legislation, beginning in six months large supermarkets and drugstores will not be allowed to offer plastic bags made from petroleum products.
"Many [foreign] cities and nations have already implemented very similar legislation," said Ross Mirkarimi, the city legislator who championed the new law. "It's astounding that San Francisco would be the first U.S. city to follow suit."
"I am hopeful that other U.S. cities will also adopt similar legislation," he said. "Why wait for the federal government to enact legislation that gets to the core of this problem when local governments can just step up to the plate?"
The city's Department of the Environment said San Francisco uses 181 million plastic grocery bags annually. Plans dating back a decade to encourage recycling of the bags have largely failed, with shoppers returning just one percent of bags, said department spokesman Mark Westland.
Mirkarimi said the ban would save 450,000 gallons of oil a year and remove the need to send 1,400 tons of debris now sent annually to landfills. The new rules would, however, allow recyclable plastic bags, which are not widely used today.
A spokesman for San Francisco Mayor Gavin Newsom, who must approve or veto the legislation, called it sensible. "Chances are good that he is going to sign it," said Nathan Ballard.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/03/27/environment.baggs.reut/index.html
I think this is great. My fave grocery store, Hannaford, sells cloth bags that I've bought and reuse whenever I go to the store. I ask them all the time if others use them, they usually say "not many". They also I know many people reuse the plastic grocery bags, but the majority of bags seem to just get thrown out and take up space in landfills.
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I wonder how the store employees will cope..when I request paper bags, they look at me blankly....usually they don't have them, but if they do find them, they have no clue how to pack them...I usually pack my own bags, but when they do try to help, forget it...
If every grocery store would adopt this strategy that would be great.
Whats the average lifetime of a plastic grocey bag, something like 5 minutes or something absurd like that.
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
Can you expound?
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
Here are the standards being upheld, according to the city legislator:
"Many [foreign] cities and nations have already implemented very similar legislation....It's astounding that San Francisco would be the first U.S. city to follow suit."
"Why wait for the federal government to enact legislation that gets to the core of this problem when local governments can just step up to the plate?"
Apparently, this guy's best argument for his law amount to:
- Other cities do it
- Local governments can be faster
- We'll somehow use less oil
It just seems silly.
so you DONT like the idea of local governments passing legislation like this as opposed to a bloated and out of touch federal government doing it? personally, im all for local governments responding to their community values instead of leaving it to the federal government to make every city in this country exactly the same.
Hehe...I'll take a ban in a city I don't live in over a federal ban, if that's what you're asking. A federal ban on paper bags would be unconstitutional, but certainly that wouldn't stop it from happening.
"Community values"? Huh? If using paper bags were a "community value", this wouldn't be a problem.
OK, you think the guy's is argument silly, what about the issue at hand, the banning of plastic bags? I am not sure about the correlation to oil & how much less we will use banning plastic bags, but do you think replacing plastic bags with alternatives is a bad idea? Are you worried about the cost to businesses? Will there even be increased costs? If so, how much?
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
I think that's silly as well. Plastic bags aren't a pack of rabid dogs attacking small children and the elderly in the streets, you know. If you don't want plastic bags, don't use them. It's not complicated.
Not at all. I highly doubt there are non-negligible oil savings here. It takes oil to cut down a tree and produce paper bags too. But using "alternatives" that biodegrade faster is certainly fine with me, if people want to go that route. That said, using "alternatives" that biodegrade slower and make carrying groceries easier are also fine with me, if people want to go that route.
Not really. Consumers will just pay those costs.
Probably, but very slight. I don't have a good idea regarding the data on that.
Well, you've obviously not had your car attacked by a plastic bag! Ever get one of those bags stuck underneath your car? What the hell is that burning smell? Plastic bags are evil!
Seems like I remember reading an article a while back about how Wal-Mart changed the 'look' of their plastic bags, so they would look like all the other plastic bags. Apparently, it was very easy to notice the millions of Wal-Mart plastic bags at the dump. I'll have to locate that article.
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
Hehe...why not just ban cars and burning smells then too?
I'm not really going to jump on the blame Wal-Mart bandwagon for giving people what they ask for.
But hey, I don't live in San Fran. If this is what these people want, it's up to them.
yeah, it's silly...
I'm pretty sure you could bring your own plastic bags since it means so much to you....or are you arguing just to argue....?
Plastic bags don't mean anything to me.
I'm just shocked people buy into this kind of crap. They see no problem in banning things that are not forced on them and that people could simply choose not to do, and then suggest they're "representing the people" or upholding "community values". It makes no sense.
it happens all the time...that's what laws are...
Where will these people put their cat box scoupings? I'd have to buy them on the black market if I lived there.
feed them to the dog....:D
Oh, well, in that case, protest withdrawn!!! God forbid I question something that "happens all the time".
Laws are codes of conduct based on reason, not demands based on whims.
Look, this guy's reasoning could be used to create a very similar ban. Yet I wonder how Ross Mirkarimi would feel about banning condoms, based entirely on his very same arguments.
Damn Hippie!....lol
the other foot in the gutter
sweet smell that they adore
I think I'd rather smother
-The Replacements-
oh my god, relax....
so let me understand...your issue is not with the fact that when you visit San Fran, you won't be able to get a plastic bag with your purchase...your issue is that a local government elected by the people is looking to ban something....
I wonder, if a private corporation was doing the same (banning plastic bags), what side of the fence you'd be on....I bet I know....
Looking to ban something already entirely in the control of those "people", yes. That's my issue.
If a private corporation banned it's own use of plastic bags, I'd be perfectly ok with that, just like if a private citizen banned his or her own use of plastic bags.
You're trying to find a contradiction by fixating on the bags. It has nothing to do with the bags. It has everything to do with forcing "the people" to do something in the name of "the people". It makes no sense.
they should go in the compost like they do here!
that was essentially what im asking. i prefer as many decisions as possible be made at a local level where they are more responsive and in touch with the desires of the locale.
using paper bags may not be a community value, but reducing pollution might be. if this measure is abhorrent to the community's sense of freedom, then they will let the legislators know. but im guessing most people dont give a flying fuck what kind of bag they get, so if this is good for the environment (which cannot vote to protect its own interests) and nobody minds, what's the issue?
I'm cool with this.
They probably don't "give a fuck", in this case. Which makes me wonder how someone can claim this is in their interests.
I guess I'll just drop this, since I really don't care about plastic bags, don't live in San Fran, and am kind of in a crappy mood this morning. I would like someone to answer the condom question, however.
I stayed in Germany for a couple of weeks two years ago and people using plastic bags would get dirty looks
You do know I was joking, right? I agree with your Wal-Mart remark, just found the 'bag' thing interesting.
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
it's not really in THEIR interests, but it is in the environment's interests. and since it is unfortunately true that the environment cannot vote to protect its own interests, sometimes we need to make some decisions to protect it out of the kindness of our heart. if we can find ways to do so that are relatively cheap, simple, and not inconvenient, i am all for that. better a plastic bag ban than a car ban.
as to condoms, yes, theoretically it could be done by the same logic. but, as usual, you are all in your head and not in reality. the same logic could be used, but wouldnt be, for a number of reasons:
1) condoms are not nearly as common or prevalent in their use. people are handed 3-4 of these bags every time they go to the store... i have hundreds in my closet that i use for trash bags.
2) condoms are smaller, so even if numerically, as many condoms were used as plastic bags, it would not be as big a problem.
3) for both of the above reasons, condoms would NOT be banned becos the intent of this law is environmental protection and a condom ban would not have any significant impact on the environment. whether or not the plastic bag thing does is debatable but it is assuredly (by simple math and physics) far more significant than a condom ban.
4) alternatives to condoms are nowhere near as cheap and convenient and practical as alternatives to plastic grocery bags. a paper bag is handed to the customer and carried in the same manner. other than condoms, you have to get the pill, the path, or some other vastly different contraceptive.
5) for the reason above, such a measure would spur a public outcry becos the costs vastly outweigh the benefits for a condom ban. this is not the case for a plastic bag ban, which has very moderate/minimal costs for a relatively significant benefit.
as you were so quick to point out in the human hybrid thread, just becos something can be done doesnt mean it should or will be done. in this case, yes, similar logic could be used to band condoms, but it will not be due to a basic cost-benefit analysis. surely as a businessman you understand the concept of cost-benefit analysis.