Rumsfeld faces war crimes accusations

Puck78

The Associated Press: November 13, 2006

BERLIN: Civil rights activists filed a suit Tuesday asking German prosecutors to open a war crimes investigation of outgoing U.S. Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld and a host of other officials for their alleged roles in abuse at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison and Guantanamo Bay.

The 220-page suit was sent to federal prosecutors by U.S. and German attorneys under a German law that allows the prosecution of war crimes regardless of where they were committed. It alleges that Rumsfeld personally ordered and condoned torture.

"One of the goals has been to say a torturer is someone who cannot be given a safe haven," said Michael Ratner, the president of New York's Center for Constitutional Rights, which is behind the litigation.

"It sends a strong message that this is not acceptable."

Captured in December 2001 along the Afghanistan-Pakistan border, al-Qahtani would not crack under normal questioning, so Rumsfeld approved harsher methods, according to testimony before U.S. Congress.

After FBI agents raised concerns, military investigators began reviewing the case and in July 2005 said they confirmed abusive and degrading treatment that included forcing al-Qahtani to wear a bra, dance with another man, stand naked in front of women and behave like a dog. Still, the Pentagon determined "no torture occurred."

German prosecutors already declined to investigate a more limited suit in 2004, arguing that it was up to the U.S. to hold any inquiry and that there were no indications U.S. authorities or courts would refrain from doing so.

The attorneys involved think they have a better case this time, armed with documents from 2005 congressional hearings on the al-Qahtani case. They argue that Rumsfeld's resignation last week means prosecutors may be under less political pressure to shun the case.

They also have former U.S. Army Brig. Gen. Janis Karpinski, the one-time commander of all U.S. military prisons in Iraq, as a witness on their behalf.

Karpinski, who was relieved of her command and demoted to colonel last year, says she did not know about prisoner abuse and asserts that higher-ups encouraged cruel treatment.

"It was done incrementally over time to prevent people from seeing what was actually approved and permitted," Karpinski said at a news conference alongside the lawyers backing the case.

"It certainly escaped my perception ... when they thought that Janis Karpinski was getting too close to uncovering this information or these events, they took me out of the equation."

Pentagon spokeswoman Cynthia Smith and Frank Wallenta, spokesman for German federal prosecutors, both said they could not comment because they had not yet received the suit in their offices.

In addition to Rumsfeld, the suit names U.S. Attorney General Alberto Gonzales, former CIA director George Tenet, former commander of all U.S. forces in Iraq Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez and eight others, alleging that they either ordered, aided, or failed to prevent war crimes.

A case could not be brought with the International Criminal Court, because the United States is not a member, Ratner said, and could not be pursued through the U.N. because the U.S. has veto power.

Wolfgang Kaleck, the German attorney who is leading the litigation, said the suit's backers would appeal if prosecutors refuse to take up the case, and raised the prospect of further attempts in other European countries.

redrock

An interesting turn of events. Need to see what happens next....

Byrnzie

I saw this. I doubt he'd turn up if called though. You know how arrogant these pigs are. They've always believed they're above the law.

Staceb10

Like that's going to do anything but waste money. Rumsfeld isn't going to be punished for anything outside of our country. Probably won't be tried here either but that's an entirely different debate.

Puck78

Staceb10 wrote:

Rumsfeld isn't going to be punished for anything outside of our country.

ever heard of international law?

jlew24asu

damn wrong thread sorry

El_Kabong

Puck78 wrote:

ever heard of international law?

but they can't just come and pick him up and fly him back to wherever...all he has to do is avoid going to that country...kissinger is a wanted man in a few countries

Truthmonger

El_Kabong wrote:

but they can't just come and pick him up and fly him back to wherever...

No, you're right, only the U.S. can do that to people.

Puck78

El_Kabong wrote:

but they can't just come and pick him up and fly him back to wherever...all he has to do is avoid going to that country...kissinger is a wanted man in a few countries

But if condemned, he couldn't fly freely to all the countries that he would like.
In that case, he would be arrested.

redrock

Truthmonger wrote:

No, you're right, only the U.S. can do that to people.

:D good repartie!

jeffbr

About 4 days behind, and the story is just as silly.

http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=222616

Puck78

jeffbr wrote:

About 4 days behind, and the story is just as silly.

http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=222616

your answer in that thread is wrong, jeffbr.
The universal jurisdiction will refer to international law, that also the US signed. This mean that they can proceed with the process. Previously it didn't work for the immunity, that now Rumsfeld has lost.

jeffbr

Puck78 wrote:

your answer in that thread is wrong, jeffbr.
The universal jurisdiction will refer to international law, that also the US signed. This mean that they can proceed with the process. Previously it didn't work for the immunity, that now Rumsfeld has lost.

The US isn't going to recognize Germany's "universal jurisdiction". That is a pretty highly controversial topic, and the US is historically more than reluctant to give up any sovereignty, which is exactly what happens with universal jurisdiction.

What do you expect the outcome to be?

This is a dog and pony show -- a politicized trial for show, and will not produce any binding, tangable results. Rumsfeld will not be turned over to international authorities. In this case they're casting a wide net to see what they can catch. My guess is they won't catch anything.

farfromglorified

Puck78 wrote:

ever heard of international law?

No. I have heard of realpolitik though.

Byrnzie

jeffbr wrote:

This is a dog and pony show -- a politicized trial for show, and will not produce any binding, tangable results.

You sound pretty confident. I'd be interested to know what you base this confidence in Rumsfeld's innocence on.

Truthmonger

Byrnzie wrote:

You sound pretty confident. I'd be interested to know what you base this confidence in Rumsfeld's innocence on.

Why, he got all his info from Judith Miler and Scooter Libby, so it must be true.

jeffbr

Byrnzie wrote:

You sound pretty confident. I'd be interested to know what you base this confidence in Rumsfeld's innocence on.

Perhaps you're reading words which don't exist. Please show me where I mentioned anything about Rumsfeld's innocence. I am simply arguing against a notion of "universal jurisdiction". Nice try, though.

jeffbr

Truthmonger wrote:

Why, he got all his info from Judith Miler and Scooter Libby, so it must be true.

WTF are you on about, now? You assume I think Rumsfeld is innocent because Byrnzie suggested it? You need to find new sources of info, apparently.

soulsinging

Puck78 wrote:

ever heard of international law?

the US is a sovereign country. they have no jurisdiction here and nobody would ever give them extradition powers over rumsfeld. not even ralph nader. as long as he doesn't go to germany, he's safe.

Puck78

soulsinging wrote:

the US is a sovereign country. they have no jurisdiction here and nobody would ever give them extradition powers over rumsfeld. not even ralph nader. as long as he doesn't go to germany, he's safe.

ok, this confirms that you don't know what's international law

You haven't understood that at a certin level it doesn't matter if the US recognise the universal jurisdiction or not. Rumsfeld can be declared guilty also without the estradiction. And he wouldn't be allowed to go to a country that recognise the sentence to him, without being arrested and imprisoned.

Abuskedti

Puck78 wrote:

ok, this confirms that you don't know what's international law

You mean like the Geneva Convention?

Convicting Rumsfeld will be the first step in placing accountability where it belongs. When George Bush is arrested - America can begin to regain a respectable identity. If we let him walk, we are no better than him.