Is 21 weeks still early enough for an abortion?

writersu

Pj_Gurl wrote:

There is no way in the world that a baby born at 21 weeks gestation would be going home. The article said she was born at 21 weeks 4 months ago and has now gone home.

ok, so two things I changed here........

one is that first trimester is not 36 weeks, realized that this am. sorry..

and then I didn't see that she was in the hospital for 4 months.

was the pix from now or before though?

decides2dream

ForestBrain wrote:

I believe life starts at conception. I also believe that people tell themselves it doesn't start until birth because it eases their conscience.

i agree that 'life' begins at conception....just not a thinking and feeling human life. the possibility of becoming a fully formed living human, is not a human life.


my beliefs keep my conscience quite clear, no need to ease it, at all.

scb wrote:

To answer your question, 1% of abortions happen at 21 weeks gestation or later. Most of them are wanted pregnancies where it was discovered late that the fetus or mother had a serious medical problem.

People seem to find this case particularly extraordinary because the baby was supposedly born 3 weeks before the 24-week mark. This is the point when fetuses are considered possibly viable and abortions are generally outlawed except when necessary to preserve the life or health of the mother. Only 0.08% of abortion happen at this point.

I looked into this a little bit further and found two interesting facts:

1. The claim is not that she was 21 weeks, but that she was 21 weeks and 6 days.

2. She was 21 weeks and 6 days counting from conception, which is not the method by which doctors usually count gestational age. (Apparently they counted it this way because they knew exactly when she conceived because the pregnancy was a result of in vitro fertilization.) Doctors usually count gestational age from the first day of the last menstrual period, which is 2 weeks before conception. This means that when comparing dates for viablity standards, she was 23 weeks and 6 days - only a few hours from being considered possibly viable by the medical community and off limits for abortion by most of the legal community.

I wish her well, but her story isn't that shocking after all.

way to ruin a sensationalist story. damn facts!


89% of abortions are performed under 12 weeks gestation. beyond that time, it is always a question of extenuating circumstances. usually high medical risk to the mother. it is NOT common, nor easy, to just go and get a later term abortion.


personally, i wish far more were concerned with life that already exists out in the world, caring for and protecting those...rather than focus on the unborn. and i don't simply mean human beings, but even there would be a good start. the whole idea of 'all life is precious'....really only seems to be about human life, and even then...not always treated as 'precious' in any case...so i personally don't subscribe to it. life is life...we are ALL unique, but it truly doesn't make us 'special'.....our own sense of self and self-importance is just that, our own. doesn't make it so in the world.

FrankBauer

DriftingByTheStorm wrote:

life starts at birth.

don't over think it.
:cool:

damn, sucked into an abortion debate. but am just curious how you think about these different scenarios.

theres no "standard" for when life begins. as the OP was trying to show - viability vs. actual birth, which this distinction is vital to the abortion debate.

so people who strictly adhere to this statement that life begins at birth, how do you see these circumstances? a pregnant woman in her 37th week murdered - never be charged as a double homicide? or if a man punches his pregnant GF in the belly with the intention of killing the fetus, the baby spontaneously aborts, only be charged with assault and battery? or even the ridiculous scenario that was politicized a few weeks ago in this election - an abortion results in a viable baby. you must believe its the doctor's right to do everything they can to save the child?

i really feel that anyone who believes that human life begins at birth is misguided. can you make a case that human life begins at conception? maybe. you could probably do a better job arguing the latter, even though i think its pretty weak too.

catch22 wrote:

not at all. like i said, that thing ain't human. if it was, they'd show more than the feet. but they know people would see the real thing and go "what the fuck is that freaky little blob of jelly out of john carpenter's 'the thing'" and the pro-life movement would be deader than a 6-week fetus born to a liberal democrat.

i disagree. with so much technology now, 3D ultrasounds, our increasing understanding of embryology of developmental biology, its actually shifting this argument to the "right." viability is a big deal in this debate and now we have the equipment to save a baby born at 21 weeks, which is crazy.

if you are afraid of the alien look - have you ever seen a newborn? ugly as hell....or how about down syndrome babies - they are funny looking too. or how about the lady born with half a body (as seen the TLC channel)? all freaky, but human. have you seen a pro-life stand before? they are outside colleges everywhere showing these exact pictures of a baby at 20 weeks (even earlier sometimes). they use these freaky images to support their cause.

vduboise wrote:

For some, not all, of the women who choose to have abortions, the fathers could give a rats ass. Not saying that there are not potential fathers that would want to take care of the child. But for the most part, a lot of women are on their own. And they have to make the choices that would be best for them.

as for the father's role, i always thought this issue is all too often overlooked in the abortion debate. most women aren't on their own. if a woman chooses to have a child (with or without the father's choice in consideration), they are legally bound to help care for the welfare of the child. a father has no rights before the pregnancy, nor does he have much after.

FrankBauer

decides2dream wrote:

i agree that 'life' begins at conception....just not a thinking and feeling human life. the possibility of becoming a fully formed living human, is not a human life.

think you nailed it. i agree with you as well. life begins at conception, human life probably not until the development of the neocortex (which is in the late first trimester). the sanctity of life means very little in our society, the sanctity of human life means a little more.

decides2dream

FrankBauer wrote:

think you nailed it. i agree with you as well. life begins at conception, human life probably not until the development of the neocortex (which is in the late first trimester). the sanctity of life means very little in our society, the sanctity of human life means a little more.

agreed.



honestly, though, i don't quite *get* the whole 'sanctity of life' idea really. i look at the world, i don't see life as sacred, amongst any creatures. i really see no 'purpose' in it either. life IS...and then it isn't...and so it goes. i think sure, once someone/thing IS alive, is a thinking and feeling being.....best to treat that life with respect, but i don't believe in sanctity. we're all living creatures afterall....we all kill things to survive and thrive.....such is life, and death.

eyedclaar

I support post-birth abortions, so I'm probably the wrong one to ask. I mean the first time that little motherfucker talks back to me... oooh, starting over.

writersu

eyedclaar wrote:

I support post-birth abortions, so I'm probably the wrong one to ask. I mean the first time that little motherfucker talks back to me... oooh, starting over.

That is so funny; see, I tell my teenagers that I am going to drop them off at`the fire station.

Remember when someone said that a new mom who didn't want her baby ;(when all the moms that were troubled were leaving them in dumpsters, etc.)
that she could drop the baby off there instead of desperation.....

only my teenagers are too old for that option........

Brain of J.Lo

writersu wrote:

That is so funny; see, I tell my teenagers that I am going to drop them off at`the fire station.

Remember when someone said that a new mom who didn't want her baby ;(when all the moms that were troubled were leaving them in dumpsters, etc.)
that she could drop the baby off there instead of desperation.....

only my teenagers are too old for that option........

I actually heard a story of someone abandoning a teenager and another younger child at a hospital recently. :(

So it's still an option, apparently.

writersu

Brain of J.Lo wrote:

I actually heard a story of someone abandoning a teenager and another younger child at a hospital recently. :(

So it's still an option, apparently.

yeah, I think they start out so darn cute and sweet so they can keep our love later on when they are trying our patience.
my teens are so funny; and at times, they are really out there, trying my patience but I look at their faces and I see these little boys with little faces and voices that played Legos all day and did funny things and I just am in awe of them.

roar

ForestBrain wrote:

I believe life starts at conception. I also believe that people tell themselves it doesn't start until birth because it eases their conscience.

i agree. some do.

meistereder

Brain of J.Lo wrote:

I actually heard a story of someone abandoning a teenager and another younger child at a hospital recently. :(

So it's still an option, apparently.

If you live in Nebraska, you can drop off kids under the age of 19. Not a bad deal.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26353351/

ForestBrain

Bottom line:

You make the choice...a woman does...when she has the sex that gets her pregnant. All right? That was her choice. Killing a defenseless baby is not all right. It shouldn't be a choice. It's a separate human life. Rape victims? Why not put the child up for adoption? I know it's not the woman's fault it happens and it's a horrendous thing to occur, but that baby is as much a victim as the woman.

And by the way, I don't think war is okay. I'm anti-war. I'm anti anything that harms human life.

keeponrockin

ForestBrain wrote:

Bottom line:

You make the choice...a woman does...when she has the sex that gets her pregnant. All right? That was her choice. Killing a defenseless baby is not all right. It shouldn't be a choice. It's a separate human life. Rape victims? Why not put the child up for adoption? I know it's not the woman's fault it happens and it's a horrendous thing to occur, but that baby is as much a victim as the woman.

And by the way, I don't think war is okay. I'm anti-war. I'm anti anything that harms human life.

I think abortion is a personal choice, and you could decide if you were ever in the situation.

If a woman is raped, you REALLY think she should have to live with not only the emotional consequences, but the physical consequences of being pregnant? wow...

And I love how the right paints the left as baby killers. We don't like abortion either, but IMO, it should be an option.

Cosmo

OffHeGoes29 wrote:

What ever happen to contraceptives? I know there are accidences, but wrap that shit up, take the pill, be responsible. It might not be such a hot button issue if people think about the choices they make before all of this happens.

...
How about that. A fucking SOLUTION to the problem!!!
Don't get Pregnant... no need for Abortion!
...
Why don't the Anti-abortion folks get behind this?

gischick

Cosmo wrote:

.
Why don't the Anti-abortion folks get behind this?

Yeah, why don't the anti-abortion people do something to HELP the kids that are here now that no one wants? Throw the fucking sign in the trash and go be a Big Brother or Big Sister to a child in need.

Why don't anti-abortion people realize that making abortion illegal will not stop women from having them?

Oh yeah, bomb the abortion clinic and kill people while doing it. There's irony.

Why should any MAN have any right to comment on abortion? Grow a uterus and then talk to me about it.

BTW, I had an abortion at 16 and was harassed by pro life people in my community. I have never regretted my choice for one second.
I have also given birth to two beautiful kids. Anyone who thinks it is easy for a women to just have a baby conceived by rape has obviously never experienced pregnancy and child birth.

Cosmo

gischick wrote:

Yeah, why don't the anti-abortion people do something to HELP the kids that are here now that no one wants? Throw the fucking sign in the trash and go be a Big Brother or Big Sister to a child in need.

Why don't anti-abortion people realize that making abortion illegal will not stop women from having them?

Oh yeah, bomb the abortion clinic and kill people while doing it. There's irony.

Why should any MAN have any right to comment on abortion? Grow a uterus and then talk to me about it.

BTW, I had an abortion at 16 and was harassed by pro life people in my community. I have never regretted my choice for one second.
I have also given birth to two beautiful kids. Anyone who thinks it is easy for a women to just have a baby conceived by rape has obviously never experienced pregnancy and child birth.

...
Well... I have always felt that if the Anti-Abortion Crew spent their time, effort, money (and over abundance of fanaticism) towards EDUCATION on BIRTH CONTROL practices... they can solve their own problem by THEMSELVES.
...
The arguement I mostly hear is that they don't want Sex Education in school... it should be the parent's job.
Well, if it doesn't work in an upper middle class white Christian home like the Palin's... how is it going to work else where?
...
The LAMEST arguement is... passing out condoms will make the kids want fuck. Guess what, morons? KIDS WANT TO FUCK... whether you give them a condom or not.
When i was in the 8th Grade... me and my friends got a hold of a box of my friend's dad's condoms. We all got one... and kept it for when we were going to finally bang a girl.
Well... i had that fucking condom for about 3 years. I did a lot of fucking in that time... unfortunately, no one else was involved.
...
And do you know what Abstinence Only leads to?.. more blow jobs and butt fucking. Because blow jobs and butt fucking isn't 'technically' fucking... to a teenage sense of rationalization... it's just 'Messing around... you know... like kissing and stuff'.
...
Finally... have you ever noticed that the ones most likely to argue about not having sex... are people who are too ugly to fuck? Even on a tequila bender... on New Year's Eve.

decides2dream

ForestBrain wrote:

Bottom line:

You make the choice...a woman does...when she has the sex that gets her pregnant. All right? That was her choice. Killing a defenseless baby is not all right. It shouldn't be a choice. It's a separate human life. Rape victims? Why not put the child up for adoption? I know it's not the woman's fault it happens and it's a horrendous thing to occur, but that baby is as much a victim as the woman.

And by the way, I don't think war is okay. I'm anti-war. I'm anti anything that harms human life.

when someone actually kills a defenseless BABY, i 100% agree with you. an embryo is NOT a baby. period. it cannot think or feel. it IS a seperate human life, and honestly...so what? there are soooo many unique living creatures on this earth, we all are unique...so reallky, not so special. i am anti-cruelty. killing an embryo that has zero sensory reception is not cruel. not to me. i don't consider it a raltionalization, i consider it a fact. may be different in your eyes, so be it.


and the whole you have sex deal with the consequences.....having an abortion IS dealing with the consequences. perhaps not in a way YOU agree with, but it still is an option and an effective method of 'dealing with it' and being responsible.


i am 100% FOR education and access to ALL birth control options and most importanly, removal of social - particularly religious - stigmas associated with such. there is the REAL way to lessen and/or obliterate abortions.



btw - hate to state the obvious....but most people want to adopt healthy, white babies. if your baby doesn't fit that criteria, may not be much 'market' for your child. then what? a ward of the state? sure, it's a choice. so is keeping the child...so is abortion. i believe in the RIGHT for any woman to make the choice right for her.

iamica

gischick wrote:

Yeah, why don't the anti-abortion people do something to HELP the kids that are here now that no one wants? Throw the fucking sign in the trash and go be a Big Brother or Big Sister to a child in need.

Why don't anti-abortion people realize that making abortion illegal will not stop women from having them?

Oh yeah, bomb the abortion clinic and kill people while doing it. There's irony.

Why should any MAN have any right to comment on abortion? Grow a uterus and then talk to me about it.

BTW, I had an abortion at 16 and was harassed by pro life people in my community. I have never regretted my choice for one second.
I have also given birth to two beautiful kids. Anyone who thinks it is easy for a women to just have a baby conceived by rape has obviously never experienced pregnancy and child birth.

THANK YOU. I really think that if everyone who claimed to be "pro-life" would actually get out there and do something to help a kid stuck in the foster system, adopted a kid, became a child sponsor or tutor, or volunteered at a women and children's shelter or something, they would actually be practicing what they preached.
And I agree - whenever I hear any man saying "even if the woman is raped, she should still have the baby"...yeah, easy for you to say. You'll never have to worry about getting raped or becoming pregnant.

nick1977

Abortion is a serious problem in this country. It is very barbaric when a fetus is viable and can live outside the womb. I am in favor of limiting abortions post viability to instances in rape, incest or for the mother's life. Beyond that, they should be illegal post viability.

Pre viability, I don't know. I would prefer women who do not want children just not get pregnant. That would deal with the problem. Even if Roe V. Wade was overturned, it would still be a problem...some states would permit it and some would not.

The answer lies in education. I think birth control is readily available to anyone who wants it. The key is educating people to use it. We need to quit bickering about whether abortion should be legal or illegal, and get to the root of the problem.....avoiding unwanted pregnancies.

In addition, we need to work on our system to place infants in a good adoptive home. That way, women can be encouraged to carry a baby to term and place the baby for adoption.

it is a deep, serious problem. Post viable fetus abortion are barbaric and unthinkably cruel. Pre viability is a little more grey....I tend to think it is grey enough that women should be able to chose. but again, education is the key.

_

ForestBrain wrote:

Bottom line:

You make the choice...a woman does...when she has the sex that gets her pregnant. All right? That was her choice. Killing a defenseless baby is not all right. It shouldn't be a choice. It's a separate human life. Rape victims? Why not put the child up for adoption? I know it's not the woman's fault it happens and it's a horrendous thing to occur, but that baby is as much a victim as the woman.

And by the way, I don't think war is okay. I'm anti-war. I'm anti anything that harms human life.

Hmmm.... I was under the impression that this particular abortion thread was more about later term abortions which, although rare, usually involve a WANTED pregnancy where something went medically wrong. So where does your "she made the choice when she had sex" argument fit in to situations where the women actually did choose to get pregnant?