you still don't have a valid argument. you're saying engaging in war that the general public isn't supportive of is irrational. how so? you haven't provided an argument. you're making a blanket claim that its irrational.
i'll make an example. the massachusetts state legislature recently decided not to allow a proposed constitutional amendment banning gay marriage to go before a public referendum. some polls have shown that a majority of the citizens of massachusetts would back such a ban. even though it was the view of the general public that gay marriage should be banned, the legislature blocked this. under your argument, this is irrational and letting the majority decide minority rights and banning gay marriage is rational.
lets take another example. lets say hypothetically that a majority of the citizens living in nazi germany supported the extermination of the jews, under your argument it would be irrational for hitler to NOT exterminate the jews.
i have made a point, and you have made a counterpoint 1/2 way...
take your example of nazi germany, that would still be irrational, why would be easy to prove, it's not remotely the same w/ iraq or certain other wars/actions
i'm not trying to make a blanket statement, either, everything has to be on a case by case basis, but where is this 'proof' that something like iraq is rational?
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
i have made a point, and you have made a counterpoint 1/2 way...
take your example of nazi germany, that would still be irrational, why would be easy to prove, it's not remotely the same w/ iraq or certain other wars/actions
i'm not trying to make a blanket statement, either, everything has to be on a case by case basis, but where is this 'proof' that something like iraq is rational?
I don't think he's even making the half-point you gave him. Lol.
You're a kind and generous man, El Kabong.
lets say the US went to war in iraq to gain control of iraqi oil reserves. this could be argued as rational behavior since most experts estimate that in the next 10 to 20 years global oil supplies will peak and the ratio of oil supply to demand will decline rapidly and prices will skyrocket. you could make the argument that this is rational behavior for a state. this is just one example.
are you making that argument? many things could be argued and rationalized...
you are going by 'well, it could be argued and i'm saying maybe, but that's not the case the majority would seem to make, i think the majority would say so much loss of life and injured is not a rational consequence for control of oil, i think they would say 'let's make something else'...oh, shit, that is what they're saying!
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
lets say the US went to war in iraq to gain control of iraqi oil reserves. this could be argued as rational behavior since most experts estimate that in the next 10 to 20 years global oil supplies will peak and the ratio of oil supply to demand will decline rapidly and prices will skyrocket. you could make the argument that this is rational behavior for a state. this is just one example.
Make a rational argument for yourself.
Fuck government, fuck the economy, fuck the warmongers. Will you survive when the oil is gone?
Of course you will.
The obsession with fossil fuel and the sliver of a splinter fragment grasp it has on what is available to the energy of powering this civilization and it's people onward, is just idiotic.
how am i not making a point? others are arguing that its irrational not to base governmental decisions on public opinion. my point was that public opinion is very often irrational. people here are saying the iraq war is irrational, yet most of the american public supported it. according to your arguments, this would make the iraq war rational. you're contradicting yourselves. or can you not understand logic?
check the polls, my friend, the majority didn't support it until they started talking about mushroom clouds, imaginary iaea reports saying they were 6 months away from a nuke "i don't know what more evidence we need!" , "it's pretty well established mohammed atta was in iraq", "this isn't speculation, it's fact"....do i really need to list the many lies and mischaracterizations that were thrown about that pushed the public opinion towards it??
so, yes, that's still irrational b/c they based changing their minds on lies
ppl aren't as easily lied to now compared to viet nam
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
plus elkabong, you're still making the claim that what the majority thinks or wants is rational, when i've already shown you that its not. popular opinion has nothing to do with rationality or reason.
War.
99.99999999999999999999999999 percent of the world's population, in the known HISTORY of people, have never participated in war.
well then why are we having this discussion? everything is theoretical. you don't know the real reasons why the US went to war, you can only guess the most logical and probably reasons why the administration wanted to go to war so bad.
i don't know, you keep replying to me...that's why, i guess
i don't have to guess, they said so in the wolfowitz doctrine in 92 and they wrote about it in september of 2000:
"need for a substantial American force presence in the Gulf transcends the issue of the regime of Saddam Hussein." as well as other mentions of it has to be our role to control strategic resources and locations....
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
plus elkabong, you're still making the claim that what the majority thinks or wants is rational, when i've already shown you that its not. popular opinion has nothing to do with rationality or reason.
How is the majority of people being irrational exactly? Because they've chosen to value life over money and oil? Being against violent solutions is far from being irrational. It's the sign of an evolved populace. If you want to keep backing violent means instead of intelligent ones then I would have to say you are the one being irrational.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
yes, and cheney has made a number of speeches about peak oil, which goes back to my claim earlier. anyways, controlling strategic resources is perfectly rational state behavior.
it would be in my interest to control your bank account, is stealing your money a rational action to take?
but i could make some arguments as to why i need it, so it's justified, right?
no, there's still a basic principle
if there was treasure under my floor using a pickaxe to dig it up would be rational, if i was lied to about the treasure then...well, it's not that rational, is it? you can't say the ppl's will is irrational and use how they were mislead by lies as an example
ppl will always try to rationalize things that are irrational, that's why they're 'rational lies'
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
i'm not talking about iraq. the majority is inherently irrational. thats why representative democratic government was created.
The majority, if you've been reading my posts at all, is supremely rational when it comes to War. They're going to look out for themselves, just like you and me.
'looking out for themselves' leads to not caring about the other guys and leads to war. thats why we went to war in iraq in the first place. americans didn't care about iraqis, we only cared about our own security, revenge for 9/11 no matter who the victim was, 'fighting them over there so we don't have to fight them over here', etc.
That's the past. People are changing their minds and for good reason.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
'looking out for themselves' leads to not caring about the other guys and leads to war. thats why we went to war in iraq in the first place. americans didn't care about iraqis, we only cared about our own security, revenge for 9/11 no matter who the victim was, 'fighting them over there so we don't have to fight them over here', etc.
the majority of people are irrational because they are self-interested and do not care about the minority or for the good of the whole. thats why voters in massachusetts wanted to decide whether gays could marry or not, instead of letting their elected representatives decide. the political body is extremely responsive to changing trends and opinions, which are never based on reason or rationality. the majority of voters don't base their votes on reason. this is why we don't pass all of our laws by referendum. the public is hasty to make decisions without really analyzing whats logical or rational. this is why we have elected terms and staggered terms in the senate. i could name thousands of different issues in which the majority has acted in an irrational manner, such as black civil rights in the south. this is why judicial review and the supreme court was needed to make rational political and legal decisions without the consent of the majority.
Why does this keep coming back to the gay vote for you? I don't have a problem at all with you being gay, or anyone else, but you cannot convincingly make analogies of this current war with the gay argument.
the majority of people are irrational because they are self-interested and do not care about the minority or for the good of the whole. thats why voters in massachusetts wanted to decide whether gays could marry or not, instead of letting their elected representatives decide. the political body is extremely responsive to changing trends and opinions, which are never based on reason or rationality. the majority of voters don't base their votes on reason. this is why we don't pass all of our laws by referendum. the public is hasty to make decisions without really analyzing whats logical or rational. this is why we have elected terms and staggered terms in the senate. i could name thousands of different issues in which the majority has acted in an irrational manner, such as black civil rights in the south. this is why judicial review and the supreme court was needed to make rational political and legal decisions without the consent of the majority.
The point is all of these irrational examples you've brought up are fading. They are becoming the past, the old way. In the meantime people are learning from experience and growing from it. No matter how many judicial reviews you have, you can't force law on people that don't accept it...see marijuana for starters. People will always do what seems reasonable to themselves. And the majority of people are learning from the past and no longer consider war as a reasonable answer. They just aren't accepting the goals/consquences of this war to be greater than their value of human life. It's catching on. You'd have to be blind not to see it. It's the future, imho.
Look, this has been fun but I gotta get some sleep. Nite all.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
first, i'm not gay. i'm using it as an example because it fits perfectly with what we're talking about and its contemporary. i'm using it to describe how public opinion is irrational. if you fail to grasp this concept, i highly suggest you apply to a university and take an introductory logics class so you can advance your cognitive ability. otherwise, i have no hope for you and i'd like you not to try to debate me in the future when if you fail to understand basic arguments.
This is about War.
I, like you (presumedly), assume indifference (at least (or at best)philosophically) for what other men do of their plight. It's to each his own.
In the history of all mankind, less than 1% of the human race has ever decided to put on some sort of paint, feather, stripe, uniform or take up a spear or a rifle or a slingshot (for that matter), with an oath to kill another.
It just doesn't happen for the majority of people. In all of HISTORY.
If you want warmongers to dictate your history to you, that's fine by me, but there is overwhemlming evidence, even from what I can gather from your posts, that you are a part of a vast majority of humans that would just like live their lives in peace.
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
Comments
i have made a point, and you have made a counterpoint 1/2 way...
take your example of nazi germany, that would still be irrational, why would be easy to prove, it's not remotely the same w/ iraq or certain other wars/actions
i'm not trying to make a blanket statement, either, everything has to be on a case by case basis, but where is this 'proof' that something like iraq is rational?
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
You're a kind and generous man, El Kabong.
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
are you making that argument? many things could be argued and rationalized...
you are going by 'well, it could be argued and i'm saying maybe, but that's not the case the majority would seem to make, i think the majority would say so much loss of life and injured is not a rational consequence for control of oil, i think they would say 'let's make something else'...oh, shit, that is what they're saying!
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
Make a rational argument for yourself.
Fuck government, fuck the economy, fuck the warmongers. Will you survive when the oil is gone?
Of course you will.
The obsession with fossil fuel and the sliver of a splinter fragment grasp it has on what is available to the energy of powering this civilization and it's people onward, is just idiotic.
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
check the polls, my friend, the majority didn't support it until they started talking about mushroom clouds, imaginary iaea reports saying they were 6 months away from a nuke "i don't know what more evidence we need!" , "it's pretty well established mohammed atta was in iraq", "this isn't speculation, it's fact"....do i really need to list the many lies and mischaracterizations that were thrown about that pushed the public opinion towards it??
so, yes, that's still irrational b/c they based changing their minds on lies
ppl aren't as easily lied to now compared to viet nam
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
War.
99.99999999999999999999999999 percent of the world's population, in the known HISTORY of people, have never participated in war.
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
i don't know, you keep replying to me...that's why, i guess
i don't have to guess, they said so in the wolfowitz doctrine in 92 and they wrote about it in september of 2000:
"need for a substantial American force presence in the Gulf transcends the issue of the regime of Saddam Hussein." as well as other mentions of it has to be our role to control strategic resources and locations....
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
Which is why i kinda like you.
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
It's true.
Consider, in a simple educated guess, how many in all of human history have actually taken up arms against another.
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
How is the majority of people being irrational exactly? Because they've chosen to value life over money and oil? Being against violent solutions is far from being irrational. It's the sign of an evolved populace. If you want to keep backing violent means instead of intelligent ones then I would have to say you are the one being irrational.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
It's true. My 99% statement.
Consider, in a simple educated guess, how many in all of human history have actually taken up arms against another.
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
Hey so am I. But that doesn't take away from a good point.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
it would be in my interest to control your bank account, is stealing your money a rational action to take?
but i could make some arguments as to why i need it, so it's justified, right?
no, there's still a basic principle
if there was treasure under my floor using a pickaxe to dig it up would be rational, if i was lied to about the treasure then...well, it's not that rational, is it? you can't say the ppl's will is irrational and use how they were mislead by lies as an example
ppl will always try to rationalize things that are irrational, that's why they're 'rational lies'
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
The majority, if you've been reading my posts at all, is supremely rational when it comes to War. They're going to look out for themselves, just like you and me.
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
Okay icarus, that's a copout. I asked you how the majority of people are irrational. I'd like an answer.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
That's the past. People are changing their minds and for good reason.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
Bullshit.
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
Why does this keep coming back to the gay vote for you? I don't have a problem at all with you being gay, or anyone else, but you cannot convincingly make analogies of this current war with the gay argument.
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
The point is all of these irrational examples you've brought up are fading. They are becoming the past, the old way. In the meantime people are learning from experience and growing from it. No matter how many judicial reviews you have, you can't force law on people that don't accept it...see marijuana for starters. People will always do what seems reasonable to themselves. And the majority of people are learning from the past and no longer consider war as a reasonable answer. They just aren't accepting the goals/consquences of this war to be greater than their value of human life. It's catching on. You'd have to be blind not to see it. It's the future, imho.
Look, this has been fun but I gotta get some sleep. Nite all.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Cool beans...I am too!
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
This is about War.
I, like you (presumedly), assume indifference (at least (or at best)philosophically) for what other men do of their plight. It's to each his own.
In the history of all mankind, less than 1% of the human race has ever decided to put on some sort of paint, feather, stripe, uniform or take up a spear or a rifle or a slingshot (for that matter), with an oath to kill another.
It just doesn't happen for the majority of people. In all of HISTORY.
If you want warmongers to dictate your history to you, that's fine by me, but there is overwhemlming evidence, even from what I can gather from your posts, that you are a part of a vast majority of humans that would just like live their lives in peace.
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
Cool. If you hadn't, I would have had to make war on you.
Why does everyone call me "que"?
it's G-U-E
pronounced, "jew".
I'm an Israelite. In the line of David, passing through America.
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
Odd...I kept thinking gue as in gue_barium
https://secure.gue.com/images/catalog/shirts/gue-hoodie_back.jpg
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
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( o.O)
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