Religion & guns were our 2 biggest issues 240 years ago.
too bad 'we' got them both wrong.
this could probably be a separate topic for an entire thread, and would be googols more interesting than any of the current election horse-shit that everyone just keeps debating and going along with around here.
so,... what are the potential and real consequences upon america's government of having callous religious views dominate her society and culture, and what influence do guns create upon the perpetuation of such consequential trends,...?
[really, if anyone wants to restart a thread about this i am really just curious to see if and what anybody has to say here,....]
we don’t know just where our bones will rest,
to dust i guess,
forgotten and absorbed into the earth below,..
listen to him and not the spin doctors?? he is a spin doctor!
mr. i don't deal w/ lobbyists, i just take their campaing contriubitons and have them as the chair of my election campaign in a state or 2 ot make me my advisor....
let's not even get into the lie that he supported progressive candidates in their elections while he campaigned for hawks like lieberman and other ppl who supported the war
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
Obamas reamrks about small town america clingint to guns and religion is dead on accurate... and all tyou motherfuckers know it
je was speaking as to why they continue to base theor votes on guns and religion instaead of actual issues that are real and affect them... why you get a guy making $20,000 a year voting for a candidiate that favors the repeal of the estate tax, or tax cuts for the wealthy...
Obamas reamrks about small town america clingint to guns and religion is dead on accurate... and all tyou motherfuckers know it
je was speaking as to why they continue to base theor votes on guns and religion instaead of actual issues that are real and affect them... why you get a guy making $20,000 a year voting for a candidiate that favors the repeal of the estate tax, or tax cuts for the wealthy...
obama was dead on
Ok, but if you say that all the comments about liberal elitists are also dead on accurate.... it's a diverse issue and it's no ones business why anyone votes the way they do. Part of this is the reason we aren't a democracy... at thier core... the masses are generally stupid. They don't know what they want and they are easily swayed by this or that, they don't know if it's good for them or not and they don't think past their noses. It's the same reason people in section 8 housing generally are happier and more productive than people stuck away from anything good off in a government project. Debt, and the level that Americans carry as well as corruption in the Government and Corporations (both at the same time) are the biggest problem in the US... not morality.
I've been wondering this week about this and other matters. The south once was steadfastly democratic, as is Iowa and other rural states.... why? Because of the community, they help each other out, the government was or is of and by the people and they have a sense of real community and self worth. Social programs aren't abused becuase everyone has ownership.
Government or at least campaigning has become not about economics or anything really relevent that the government should be a part of and more about the social mores of whatever group of facists people like to associate themselves with. Liberty means existing peacefully in a country with things we like as well as that which we don't. If people want to freely put thier faith in God and also have guns... that's part of liberty. If they aren't forcing all thier morals on the rest of the world I have no problem with it. Just as I have no issues with prostitution or drug use or homosexuality what have you... If people want to isolate themselves in a compound and invent thier own utopia I could care less if they have Tanks on thier property so long as they keep to themselves and don't harm outsiders... that's their right. Everyone has to choose how they live thier life. I think personally government makes far to many decisions for people.
I like Obama certainly better than Clinton, I think on some matters he treats people as Adults such as on matters of race where everyone acts like children in a sand box like it's some kind of king of the hill struggle or something when it's not like that at all... but he was preaching to the choir in SF... all politicians do it... it was just different before the mass media could broadcast it everywhere.
The people of San Francisco live in a different world than the people in the midwest, they grow up differnent in different areas and they are going to grow up loving and hating different things. It dosen't make one superior to another... just different. It's the sneeches on the beeches. This goes on in every culture and or religion.... a giant pissing contest to segment and corner off and feel superior. Just like the jews, muslims, christians... what have you... this moral superiority... We are better than THOSE people.... my answer is who are we to say what someone else should hold as morals? What gives us moral authourity? Religious dogma? Pieces of paper? Badges? Titles? Beliefs?
We allow government in our lives because society needs order... order dosen't need to mean moral superiority or enforcing moral superiority as if there were some superior moral system (debateable depending on your perspective) Which is why I've always been a proponent of strong local government because people have the most power to effect change locally as they see it and the local society will vote as they see it. If they are nuts... you're free to escape to an area where they aren't. It's a huge country, everyone isn't going to see eye to eye on everything, but as you go across it, you'll find a spot that fits you... Hell even Texas has Austin.
A community needs those looking out for social issues just as they need people insuring commerce flourishes and the economy is sound enough to support the society. If our population realizes that... maybe we can start moving foward instead of spinning our wheels, but then we've been doing that forever.
My Girlfriend said to me..."How many guitars do you need?" and I replied...."How many pairs of shoes do you need?" She got really quiet.
Ok, but if you say that all the comments about liberal elitists are also dead on accurate.... it's a diverse issue and it's no ones business why anyone votes the way they do. Part of this is the reason we aren't a democracy... at thier core... the masses are generally stupid. They don't know what they want and they are easily swayed by this or that, they don't know if it's good for them or not and they don't think past their noses. It's the same reason people in section 8 housing generally are happier and more productive than people stuck away from anything good off in a government project. Debt, and the level that Americans carry as well as corruption in the Government and Corporations (both at the same time) are the biggest problem in the US... not morality.
I've been wondering this week about this and other matters. The south once was steadfastly democratic, as is Iowa and other rural states.... why? Because of the community, they help each other out, the government was or is of and by the people and they have a sense of real community and self worth. Social programs aren't abused becuase everyone has ownership.
Government or at least campaigning has become not about economics or anything really relevent that the government should be a part of and more about the social mores of whatever group of facists people like to associate themselves with. Liberty means existing peacefully in a country with things we like as well as that which we don't. If people want to freely put thier faith in God and also have guns... that's part of liberty. If they aren't forcing all thier morals on the rest of the world I have no problem with it. Just as I have no issues with prostitution or drug use or homosexuality what have you... If people want to isolate themselves in a compound and invent thier own utopia I could care less if they have Tanks on thier property so long as they keep to themselves and don't harm outsiders... that's their right. Everyone has to choose how they live thier life. I think personally government makes far to many decisions for people.
I like Obama certainly better than Clinton, I think on some matters he treats people as Adults such as on matters of race where everyone acts like children in a sand box like it's some kind of king of the hill struggle or something when it's not like that at all... but he was preaching to the choir in SF... all politicians do it... it was just different before the mass media could broadcast it everywhere.
The people of San Francisco live in a different world than the people in the midwest, they grow up differnent in different areas and they are going to grow up loving and hating different things. It dosen't make one superior to another... just different. It's the sneeches on the beeches. This goes on in every culture and or religion.... a giant pissing contest to segment and corner off and feel superior. Just like the jews, muslims, christians... what have you... this moral superiority... We are better than THOSE people.... my answer is who are we to say what someone else should hold as morals? What gives us moral authourity? Religious dogma? Pieces of paper? Badges? Titles? Beliefs?
We allow government in our lives because society needs order... order dosen't need to mean moral superiority or enforcing moral superiority as if there were some superior moral system (debateable depending on your perspective) Which is why I've always been a proponent of strong local government because people have the most power to effect change locally as they see it and the local society will vote as they see it. If they are nuts... you're free to escape to an area where they aren't. It's a huge country, everyone isn't going to see eye to eye on everything, but as you go across it, you'll find a spot that fits you... Hell even Texas has Austin.
A community needs those looking out for social issues just as they need people insuring commerce flourishes and the economy is sound enough to support the society. If our population realizes that... maybe we can start moving foward instead of spinning our wheels, but then we've been doing that forever.
Lots of good points in there, Paco. Even though I disagree with you at times I would still like to point out that you seem to have a flair for expressing your pov with clarity and understanding.
I, personally, don't care for guns or organized religion, myself...but that's not the issue here. The issue for me is pretending your morals are better than someone else's and then turning around and acting like you didn't mean it that way. If you're going to make that kind of statement, I think you should at least have the balls to own up to it and not try to weasel around it otherwise it reeks of dishonesty.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
...Just as I have no issues with prostitution or drug use or homosexuality what have you... If people want to isolate themselves in a compound and invent thier own utopia I could care less if they have Tanks on thier property so long as they keep to themselves and don't harm outsiders... that's their right. Everyone has to choose how they live thier life. I think personally government makes far to many decisions for people.
i agree with most of what you said, but here it gets sticky, especially when we're talking about situations involving children. that's the reason behind the raid on that polygamous compound. if those women want to be one of six or seven wives, well hooray for them. but children can't speak for themselves, ESPECIALLY in a community like that that shuns outside interraction. children need advocates, sometimes even protection from their parents, unfortunately. that's where government needs to enter the picture, imo.
"Ladies and gentlemen, the President of the United States, Barack Obama."
"Obama's main opponent in this election on November 4th (was) not John McCain, it (was) ignorance."~Michael Moore
"i'm feeling kinda righteous right now. with my badass motherfuckin' ukulele!"
~ed, 8/7
i agree with most of what you said, but here it gets sticky, especially when we're talking about situations involving children. that's the reason behind the raid on that polygamous compound. if those women want to be one of six or seven wives, well hooray for them. but children can't speak for themselves, ESPECIALLY in a community like that that shuns outside interraction. children need advocates, sometimes even protection from their parents, unfortunately. that's where government needs to enter the picture, imo.
i think i am qualified enough to state, without a doubt, the government needs to step into families lives and homes occasionaly on behalf of children
actually, i'd think quite a lot of ppl turn to religion when they hit bottom or feel hopeless or overly frustrated!
but here's what i don't get and correct me if i'm wrong b/c i don't really care about this particular issue either way so i haven't looked into it but isn't this how it happend?
obama was asked a private function why he's not doing as good in pennsylvania and he replies (paraphrasing) 'they are bitter...they cling to their guns and religion'
wow you hacked the quote pretty good, do you work for fox news?
Speaking as a man of faith, there is absolutely NOTHING insulting about Obama's statements. His remarks were anything but ignorant. In fact, they very insightful. Of course people of faith turn to God when they are sad, angry upset or bitter! It is what they SHOULD do! It is, as he said, a natural reaction. A faith i can't turn to, even sometimes "cling" to, during rough spots would be completely meaningless.
Edit to add: He wasn't suggesting people without faith suddenly adopt faith out of frustration. He was suggesting that people who have faith, cling to that faith when they are frustrated. THey DO. They SHOULD.
um,... "SHOULD"...?? kind of like rain-dancing helps water the fields,... ??
faith is still a human manifestation, not some predetermined ordinance of greatness and benefit. if americans held more faith in knowledge and wisdom (instead of divine forces), then perhaps politicians and industrialists would have tougher opposition to their worldwide arms-deals and war-profiteering.
this is the primary crux of these elections, and Obama does not espouse any truly progressive ideas in terms of the history of america's culture. until the mental (and therein spiritual) chains of orthodox-faiths and religious-doctrines are broken and dissolved america's government shall remain mired by/in deceit, corruption, and tyranny.
like most things, i think Ed Vedder has said it best,... DROP THE LEASH!!
we don’t know just where our bones will rest,
to dust i guess,
forgotten and absorbed into the earth below,..
um,... "SHOULD"...?? kind of like rain-dancing helps water the fields,... ??
faith is still a human manifestation, not some predetermined ordinance of greatness and benefit. if americans held more faith in knowledge and wisdom (instead of divine forces), then perhaps politicians and industrialists would have tougher opposition to their worldwide arms-deals and war-profiteering.
this is the primary crux of these elections, and Obama does not espouse any truly progressive ideas in terms of the history of america's culture. until the mental (and therein spiritual) chains of orthodox-faiths and religious-doctrines are broken and dissolved america's government shall remain mired by/in deceit, corruption, and tyranny.
like most things, i think Ed Vedder has said it best,... DROP THE LEASH!!
Look, pal, i won't get into a debate on the validity of faith in this forum. i refuse to. That wasn't my point. The point was simply that when one has faith, it is not offensive to suggest they turn to that faith, even "cling" to it in times of anger and frustration. Whether or not faith is valid is not something i'll discuss with you. The only point i was making is that Obama saying people of faith rely on that faith under stressful situations is in no way offensive. Its truth.
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
Look, pal, i won't get into a debate on the validity of faith in this forum. i refuse to. That wasn't my point. The point was simply that when one has faith, it is not offensive to suggest they turn to that faith, even "cling" to it in times of anger and frustration. Whether or not faith is valid is not something i'll discuss with you. The only point i was making is that Obama saying people of faith rely on that faith under stressful situations is in no way offensive. Its truth.
yeah, i wasnt trying to insult you, or even disprove your comments,..
i just think defending Obama on behalf of any of his comments is a moot point, since he is basically just towing the same political lines that have been sown since Manifest Destiny. and while his observations about the necessity of faith for people may be true, they thusly relay the sad truth that america's primary force of culture is inherently corrupt.
we don’t know just where our bones will rest,
to dust i guess,
forgotten and absorbed into the earth below,..
Comments
the problem is folks don't know what to do when a politician speaks the truth...
edit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIxmi3e2Vmo&eurl=http://www.samefacts.com/
This is actually really going to hurt Clinton I think.
too bad 'we' got them both wrong.
this could probably be a separate topic for an entire thread, and would be googols more interesting than any of the current election horse-shit that everyone just keeps debating and going along with around here.
so,... what are the potential and real consequences upon america's government of having callous religious views dominate her society and culture, and what influence do guns create upon the perpetuation of such consequential trends,...?
[really, if anyone wants to restart a thread about this i am really just curious to see if and what anybody has to say here,....]
to dust i guess,
forgotten and absorbed into the earth below,..
Hill.........and Bill
PEARL JAM~San Antonio, TX. 4~5~03
INCUBUS~Houston, TX. 1~19~07
INCUBUS~Denver, CO. 2~8~07
Lollapalooza~Chicago, IL. 8~5~07
INCUBUS~Austin, TX. 9~3~07
Bonnaroo~Manchester, TN 6~14~08
How's that cross burning down in Texas? I assume you are still into that?
Osama-Obama, aren't you clever? I think Cheney is looking for a hunting partner this weekend, maybe you could join him.
havnt come down to Moving Train in awhile
miss me, Cornnifer
Obama doesn't have a chance in hell
his remarks about the Middle Class is a BIG DEAL
er Osama, I mean Obama, shit, sorry..........f^%k....... sorry, not
PEARL JAM~San Antonio, TX. 4~5~03
INCUBUS~Houston, TX. 1~19~07
INCUBUS~Denver, CO. 2~8~07
Lollapalooza~Chicago, IL. 8~5~07
INCUBUS~Austin, TX. 9~3~07
Bonnaroo~Manchester, TN 6~14~08
listen to him and not the spin doctors?? he is a spin doctor!
mr. i don't deal w/ lobbyists, i just take their campaing contriubitons and have them as the chair of my election campaign in a state or 2 ot make me my advisor....
let's not even get into the lie that he supported progressive candidates in their elections while he campaigned for hawks like lieberman and other ppl who supported the war
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
how old are you? seriously, i'm - er, i mean 'im'- curious.
"Obama's main opponent in this election on November 4th (was) not John McCain, it (was) ignorance."~Michael Moore
"i'm feeling kinda righteous right now. with my badass motherfuckin' ukulele!"
~ed, 8/7
i am guessing 14...
je was speaking as to why they continue to base theor votes on guns and religion instaead of actual issues that are real and affect them... why you get a guy making $20,000 a year voting for a candidiate that favors the repeal of the estate tax, or tax cuts for the wealthy...
obama was dead on
you know damn well kabong that you support what Obama said, and that he is right...
Ok, but if you say that all the comments about liberal elitists are also dead on accurate.... it's a diverse issue and it's no ones business why anyone votes the way they do. Part of this is the reason we aren't a democracy... at thier core... the masses are generally stupid. They don't know what they want and they are easily swayed by this or that, they don't know if it's good for them or not and they don't think past their noses. It's the same reason people in section 8 housing generally are happier and more productive than people stuck away from anything good off in a government project. Debt, and the level that Americans carry as well as corruption in the Government and Corporations (both at the same time) are the biggest problem in the US... not morality.
I've been wondering this week about this and other matters. The south once was steadfastly democratic, as is Iowa and other rural states.... why? Because of the community, they help each other out, the government was or is of and by the people and they have a sense of real community and self worth. Social programs aren't abused becuase everyone has ownership.
Government or at least campaigning has become not about economics or anything really relevent that the government should be a part of and more about the social mores of whatever group of facists people like to associate themselves with. Liberty means existing peacefully in a country with things we like as well as that which we don't. If people want to freely put thier faith in God and also have guns... that's part of liberty. If they aren't forcing all thier morals on the rest of the world I have no problem with it. Just as I have no issues with prostitution or drug use or homosexuality what have you... If people want to isolate themselves in a compound and invent thier own utopia I could care less if they have Tanks on thier property so long as they keep to themselves and don't harm outsiders... that's their right. Everyone has to choose how they live thier life. I think personally government makes far to many decisions for people.
I like Obama certainly better than Clinton, I think on some matters he treats people as Adults such as on matters of race where everyone acts like children in a sand box like it's some kind of king of the hill struggle or something when it's not like that at all... but he was preaching to the choir in SF... all politicians do it... it was just different before the mass media could broadcast it everywhere.
The people of San Francisco live in a different world than the people in the midwest, they grow up differnent in different areas and they are going to grow up loving and hating different things. It dosen't make one superior to another... just different. It's the sneeches on the beeches. This goes on in every culture and or religion.... a giant pissing contest to segment and corner off and feel superior. Just like the jews, muslims, christians... what have you... this moral superiority... We are better than THOSE people.... my answer is who are we to say what someone else should hold as morals? What gives us moral authourity? Religious dogma? Pieces of paper? Badges? Titles? Beliefs?
We allow government in our lives because society needs order... order dosen't need to mean moral superiority or enforcing moral superiority as if there were some superior moral system (debateable depending on your perspective) Which is why I've always been a proponent of strong local government because people have the most power to effect change locally as they see it and the local society will vote as they see it. If they are nuts... you're free to escape to an area where they aren't. It's a huge country, everyone isn't going to see eye to eye on everything, but as you go across it, you'll find a spot that fits you... Hell even Texas has Austin.
A community needs those looking out for social issues just as they need people insuring commerce flourishes and the economy is sound enough to support the society. If our population realizes that... maybe we can start moving foward instead of spinning our wheels, but then we've been doing that forever.
No. Not really.
Apparently you've missed me though since you feel the need to call me out witout provocation.
Lots of good points in there, Paco. Even though I disagree with you at times I would still like to point out that you seem to have a flair for expressing your pov with clarity and understanding.
I, personally, don't care for guns or organized religion, myself...but that's not the issue here. The issue for me is pretending your morals are better than someone else's and then turning around and acting like you didn't mean it that way. If you're going to make that kind of statement, I think you should at least have the balls to own up to it and not try to weasel around it otherwise it reeks of dishonesty.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
i agree with most of what you said, but here it gets sticky, especially when we're talking about situations involving children. that's the reason behind the raid on that polygamous compound. if those women want to be one of six or seven wives, well hooray for them. but children can't speak for themselves, ESPECIALLY in a community like that that shuns outside interraction. children need advocates, sometimes even protection from their parents, unfortunately. that's where government needs to enter the picture, imo.
"Obama's main opponent in this election on November 4th (was) not John McCain, it (was) ignorance."~Michael Moore
"i'm feeling kinda righteous right now. with my badass motherfuckin' ukulele!"
~ed, 8/7
i think i am qualified enough to state, without a doubt, the government needs to step into families lives and homes occasionaly on behalf of children
fuck em let em rot
whohoo!
um,... "SHOULD"...?? kind of like rain-dancing helps water the fields,... ??
faith is still a human manifestation, not some predetermined ordinance of greatness and benefit. if americans held more faith in knowledge and wisdom (instead of divine forces), then perhaps politicians and industrialists would have tougher opposition to their worldwide arms-deals and war-profiteering.
this is the primary crux of these elections, and Obama does not espouse any truly progressive ideas in terms of the history of america's culture. until the mental (and therein spiritual) chains of orthodox-faiths and religious-doctrines are broken and dissolved america's government shall remain mired by/in deceit, corruption, and tyranny.
like most things, i think Ed Vedder has said it best,... DROP THE LEASH!!
to dust i guess,
forgotten and absorbed into the earth below,..
Look, pal, i won't get into a debate on the validity of faith in this forum. i refuse to. That wasn't my point. The point was simply that when one has faith, it is not offensive to suggest they turn to that faith, even "cling" to it in times of anger and frustration. Whether or not faith is valid is not something i'll discuss with you. The only point i was making is that Obama saying people of faith rely on that faith under stressful situations is in no way offensive. Its truth.
yeah, i wasnt trying to insult you, or even disprove your comments,..
i just think defending Obama on behalf of any of his comments is a moot point, since he is basically just towing the same political lines that have been sown since Manifest Destiny. and while his observations about the necessity of faith for people may be true, they thusly relay the sad truth that america's primary force of culture is inherently corrupt.
to dust i guess,
forgotten and absorbed into the earth below,..