Poppies

Ahnimus

Jeanie wrote:

Who says I don't? Who says that other people don't?

Buy a poppy and wear it, buy a poppy and don't wear it, don't buy a poppy at all. People do what they can when they can. I have no problem with what I have done with regard to veterans AND it's really none of my concern what other people do. What I'm not doing is bragging about what I have done and then giving shit to everyone else for not doing it like me. As far as I'm aware Rememberance Day isn't really about us anyway.

I would just like to point out that the symbol of the poppy has a very real tangible quality for some. If you're not one of them fine.

I'm not giving anyone shit. I discussing the efficacy and purpose of rememberance day poppies. It's a debate, and I have to commend Baraka for being the only one to actually address the thread in a meaningful way. She didn't read emotionally into what I was saying and then rebuttal with personal attacks, but actually provided a valid argument to the worth of wearing a poppy. Your last statement sought to make a valid argument but never actually pointed out what the tangible quality of the poppy symbol is. It simply made a presupposition that there is in-fact a tangible quality to the poppy symbol.

Jeanie

Ahnimus wrote:

I'm not giving anyone shit. I discussing the efficacy and purpose of rememberance day poppies. It's a debate, and I have to commend Baraka for being the only one to actually address the thread in a meaningful way. She didn't read emotionally into what I was saying and then rebuttal with personal attacks, but actually provided a valid argument to the worth of wearing a poppy. Your last statement sought to make a valid argument but never actually pointed out what the tangible quality of the poppy symbol is. It simply made a presupposition that there is in-fact a tangible quality to the poppy symbol.

You opened the thread with:

Ahnimus wrote:

I'm thinking this social phenomena of wearing poppies to "honor" veteran's is really a selfish act.

Then continued on in that vein. The impression I got from your posts was that the way you're doing it is the right way and the way everyone else is doing it is the wrong way. I chose to ignore that you started the thread on the offensive and simply stated my view. Baraka articulated a point that is probably so obvious to those that do wear the poppies that they didn't bother mentioning it. ( no offense Barak, it was a good point. Just I kinda viewed it as a given so didn't bother. )
You've continued using language throughout the thread to encite people, talking up your way of doing things and belittling when others do it different. It's subtle but it's there. Yeah, maybe it's interpretational and was not your intention to be personal, but I don't think I'm the only person that picked up on it. And by praising Baraka now you are being dismissive of what others have had to say and seemingly belittling people's contribution for not being what you expect. All I'm saying is, what you have done is great, how other people interpret and participate is great also.

The poppies are symbolic and traditional. They are easily recognized by those who do know and a reminder. They're interesting enough, particularly in numbers, to get the attention of those who don't know, potentially expanding the message. I posted you the song Green Fields of France. It includes the poppies in the lyrics. My understanding has always been that the poppies grew up in the fields of France where all the fallen lay. It was adopted by the people of the time as a beautiful reminder of peace and how beauty can come from ugly things. When people need to make sense of things, they often use beauty to "chase away" the ugliness. And symbols help with the grieving process. I also think that the poppies symbolize unity. Something that people need to have when trying to make sense of senseless things. I'm glad they use poppies. I truly appreciate the symbolism of the poppies. I actually prefer the poppy to the Anzac Day badge, although this last year the new slouch hat badge was pretty cool.

Anyway, that's my 2c for the day.

Ahnimus

Jeanie wrote:

You opened the thread with:



Then continued on in that vein. The impression I got from your posts was that the way you're doing it is the right way and the way everyone else is doing it is the wrong way. I chose to ignore that you started the thread on the offensive and simply stated my view. Baraka articulated a point that is probably so obvious to those that do wear the poppies that they didn't bother mentioning it. ( no offense Barak, it was a good point. Just I kinda viewed it as a given so didn't bother. )
You've continued using language throughout the thread to encite people, talking up your way of doing things and belittling when others do it different. It's subtle but it's there. Yeah, maybe it's interpretational and was not your intention to be personal, but I don't think I'm the only person that picked up on it.

Appeal to the majority.

And by praising Baraka now you are being dismissive of what others have had to say and seemingly belittling people's contribution for not being what you expect. All I'm saying is, what you have done is great, how other people interpret and participate is great also.

Appeal to emotion.

The poppies are symbolic and traditional.

Appeal to tradition.

You would have saved a lot of energy just saying those three things. I would have recognized them instantly for what they are.

They are easily recognized by those who do know and a reminder. They're interesting enough, particularly in numbers, to get the attention of those who don't know, potentially expanding the message. I posted you the song Green Fields of France. It includes the poppies in the lyrics. My understanding has always been that the poppies grew up in the fields of France where all the fallen lay. It was adopted by the people of the time as a beautiful reminder of peace and how beauty can come from ugly things. When people need to make sense of things, they often use beauty to "chase away" the ugliness. And symbols help with the grieving process. I also think that the poppies symbolize unity. Something that people need to have when trying to make sense of senseless things. I'm glad they use poppies. I truly appreciate the symbolism of the poppies. I actually prefer the poppy to the Anzac Day badge, although this last year the new slouch hat badge was pretty cool.

Anyway, that's my 2c for the day.

Great, but remember isn't really worth a dime if you never do anything with the memory. My problem was that people don't contribute enough, there are people suffering, people that we supposedly respect by wearing these poppies. We say we remember them and we respect them, but we allow them to rot away. Did you know that in Ontario the average senior citizen gets a shower every 10 days? They are really in a sad state of affairs and for the most part can't help themselves. So it's great that we remember them and all, but are we gonna help them? That's sort of my point in this thread.

One Song Glory

I have always worn on a poppy on Rememberance Day, and see it more as a sign of respect than anything. I don't see it as a way of one-upping the people who don't give a shit about veterans or poppies, or people who care but don't wear the pin. There's no law that says the only way of paying your respects is in wearing as stupid pin, but it's more the symbolism than anything. I find it a simple way to show your support and thanks, but I don't think any differently of people who choose not to participate in this rite.

On a bit of a different note, I had the chance to actually go to the ceremony here in Ottawa today and it was breathtaking. I was here last year as well, but had to miss it because I was extremely ill, so I couldn't wait to go this year. The sight of soooooo many people, too many to even describe, congregated en masse surrounding the War Monument, almost all wearing poppies, all paying their respects and joining in the singing of "Oh Canada" and taking a "moment of silence", actually left me speechless. The beautiful children's choir, all the veterens lined up by the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier, all very beautiful. But the most touching moment for me was taking half an hour just to get up to the monument to lay my poppy on the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier. It was a very moving commemoration and memorial service, one I hope never to miss again as long as I have the fortune to be living in the capital. There's hope for us Canadians yet!

vedderfan10

Well said Jeanie...not sure why Ahnamis is chosing to be so confrontational and provocative about the wearing of poppies in November....

Mostly, I wear my poppy to remember my grandfather who fought in WWI at the age of 15 (he lied about his age in order to serve in the war). He drank poisonous water in Germany, got crabs in Egypt (not from hooker sex), and ate part of a horse knee in France. He rode mules and spent time in horrible horrible trenches...But he didn't talk much about his war experiences...in the early 70's, someone broke into their house and stole his medals and his war photos (and all the coins he collected during the war). He was a wonderful man and the only thing I regret is that my husband didn't get to meet him.

There is not a day that goes by that I don't think of him and how horrible that war must have been for him...however, in November I wear a poppy to honour him and all the friends he lost during the war...he always used to quote In Flander's Field and taught me the importance of Remembrance Day. I consider this to be a very valid reason to wear a poppy - and if someone has a problem with that, then they just don't get it.

Ahnimus

One Song Glory wrote:

I have always worn on a poppy on Rememberance Day, and see it more as a sign of respect than anything. I don't see it as a way of one-upping the people who don't give a shit about veterans or poppies, or people who care but don't wear the pin. There's no law that says the only way of paying your respects is in wearing as stupid pin, but it's more the symbolism than anything. I find it a simple way to show your support and thanks, but I don't think any differently of people who choose not to participate in this rite.

On a bit of a different note, I had the chance to actually go to the ceremony here in Ottawa today and it was breathtaking. I was here last year as well, but had to miss it because I was extremely ill, so I couldn't wait to go this year. The sight of soooooo many people, too many to even describe, congregated en masse surrounding the War Monument, almost all wearing poppies, all paying their respects and joining in the singing of "Oh Canada" and taking a "moment of silence", actually left me speechless. The beautiful children's choir, all the veterens lined up by the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier, all very beautiful. But the most touching moment for me was taking half an hour just to get up to the monument to lay my poppy on the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier. It was a very moving commemoration and memorial service, one I hope never to miss again as long as I have the fortune to be living in the capital. There's hope for us Canadians yet!

Sounds like a nice ceremony!

Ahnimus

Vedderfan10 wrote:

Well said Jeanie...not sure why Ahnamis is chosing to be so confrontational and provocative about the wearing of poppies in November....

Mostly, I wear my poppy to remember my grandfather who fought in WWI at the age of 15 (he lied about his age in order to serve in the war). He drank poisonous water in Germany, got crabs in Egypt (not from hooker sex), and ate part of a horse knee in France. He rode mules and spent time in horrible horrible trenches...But he didn't talk much about his war experiences...in the early 70's, someone broke into their house and stole his medals and his war photos (and all the coins he collected during the war). He was a wonderful man and the only thing I regret is that my husband didn't get to meet him.

There is not a day that goes by that I don't think of him and how horrible that war must have been for him...however, in November I wear a poppy to honour him and all the friends he lost during the war...he always used to quote In Flander's Field and taught me the importance of Remembrance Day. I consider this to be a very valid reason to wear a poppy - and if someone has a problem with that, then they just don't get it.

I've seen first hand how these people live. Respect and Thanks don't really mean that much to me.

My great grandfather died in war. My uncle was in the navy, my other uncle was a marine. But it doesn't give me any special knowledge of the value of poppies. Seeing veterans and widows of soldiers suffering in nursing homes might.

vedderfan10

Ahnimus wrote:

I've seen first hand how these people live. Respect and Thanks don't really mean that much to me.

My great grandfather died in war. My uncle was in the navy, my other uncle was a marine. But it doesn't give me any special knowledge of the value of poppies. Seeing veterans and widows of soldiers suffering in nursing homes might.

I also had a great-aunt who served in WWII, and while my grandfather died suddenly at the age of 90 and did not need to go into a care facility, she was not as fortunate. My husband and I (and her son) spent YEARS trying to find a decent enough place for her to live. She was no longer physically able to live on her own (at age 88)...we eventually found a top-of-line facility in White Rock. Her son told us that as power of attorney, he wanted to give us $30,000 of her money when she eventually passed because we were the only other family members to take care of her rather than leech off her. We told him "no" because that money needed to be spent on her care at this fantastic facility. And that's what happened. The DVA maximum funding didn't cover the whole cost of the facility, so we all decided the money would be put to better use taking care of her needs. And she lived another 2 1/2 years -- she didn't die alone, and she wasn't lonely. There were so many veterans in that place so she had a lot of folks to talk to.

I work in the health care system in BC and I see how the cuts are made to care homes and care facilities in our province and how the elderly are suffering needlessly. I used to volunteer at a seniors care home and as a kid, our church choir used to "tour" the local facilities and sing for the old folks (many WWI vets)...so yes I am quite comfortable wearing a poppy to honour these people.

So please, do not be so smug about what you do. Smugness is not a good quality. Don't presume that others do not live up to your example...

I am not a hero and I do not need accolades for any of this. the people who are important in my life know about this, and that's all the acknowledgment I need...

Jeanie

Ahnimus wrote:

Appeal to the majority.

That's important only if you're trying to get a point across and you want to make change, then it makes sense to appeal to as many people as possible. Lot of really great things happen because people stick to their unpopular views, and a lot of really amazing things that only appealed to minorities have now become popular with the majority. It's all in the marketing!

Ahnimus wrote:

Appeal to emotion.

This is an emotional issue. And I'd say it was because those that have participated do care about Remembrance Day and what it stands for. WHO it stands for.

Ahnimus wrote:

Appeal to tradition.

Seems to me that tradition only continues if it has appeal. Plenty of traditions fall by the wayside because they have no relevance in the current society. The tradition of Poppies still holds appeal for generations after the symbol was first adopted. My take on that is that people in this generation that are wearing the poppies do appreciate the lessons learned by those who came before us. I don't just see the poppy only as a symbol of sacrifice and remembrance for those who died but also as a symbol for those that are still with us and most importantly I see it as a symbol of peace.

Ahnimus wrote:

You would have saved a lot of energy just saying those three things. I would have recognized them instantly for what they are.

You could have saved me a lot of energy by simply writing that last paragraph!

Ahnimus wrote:

Great, but remember isn't really worth a dime if you never do anything with the memory. My problem was that people don't contribute enough, there are people suffering, people that we supposedly respect by wearing these poppies. We say we remember them and we respect them, but we allow them to rot away. Did you know that in Ontario the average senior citizen gets a shower every 10 days? They are really in a sad state of affairs and for the most part can't help themselves. So it's great that we remember them and all, but are we gonna help them? That's sort of my point in this thread.

See? Now it's making sense to me. I don't think those that wear poppies are simply doing so to buy themselves a little peace of mind. The care of the growing aging population is a world wide problem. I like to think that those that are wearing poppies are doing so informed of the situation as it stands. The only thing that will help senior citizens in these situations is money and awareness. Much more money needs to be spent and much more government intervention needs to be happening. By wearing a poppy I believe that people are showing that they are aware of what needs to happen and I'd even go so far as to say that they're probably doing a whole lot more to rectify the situation than just wearing a poppy. It's a symbol of unity on this issue. Be happy that more and more people are wearing the poppy.

Jeanie

One Song Glory wrote:

I have always worn on a poppy on Rememberance Day, and see it more as a sign of respect than anything. I don't see it as a way of one-upping the people who don't give a shit about veterans or poppies, or people who care but don't wear the pin. There's no law that says the only way of paying your respects is in wearing as stupid pin, but it's more the symbolism than anything. I find it a simple way to show your support and thanks, but I don't think any differently of people who choose not to participate in this rite.

On a bit of a different note, I had the chance to actually go to the ceremony here in Ottawa today and it was breathtaking. I was here last year as well, but had to miss it because I was extremely ill, so I couldn't wait to go this year. The sight of soooooo many people, too many to even describe, congregated en masse surrounding the War Monument, almost all wearing poppies, all paying their respects and joining in the singing of "Oh Canada" and taking a "moment of silence", actually left me speechless. The beautiful children's choir, all the veterens lined up by the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier, all very beautiful. But the most touching moment for me was taking half an hour just to get up to the monument to lay my poppy on the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier. It was a very moving commemoration and memorial service, one I hope never to miss again as long as I have the fortune to be living in the capital. There's hope for us Canadians yet!

Here in Melbourne they have a service for Remembrance Day at The Shrine of Remembrance. It's an amazing building that was architecturally built so that on the 11th hour of the 11th day of the 11th month, the sun would shine through a space in the roof and light up the inner chamber and fall onto the plaque that is laid there to commemorate the fallen. It was built by the people of Victoria who donated the money themselves for the building fund. No mean feat given this was during The Great Depression following WW1.
I was lucky enough to work at Prince Henry's hospital across the road from the Shrine many years ago, and I would walk over to it in my lunch break many days and climb the stairs to the balcony and look out over the view.
It's an amazing building, with an amazing story, dedicated to an amazing group of people, built by an amazing community. It really is so much more than just a shrine, it's a testament to people uniting.

Jeanie

Vedderfan10 wrote:

Well said Jeanie...not sure why Ahnamis is chosing to be so confrontational and provocative about the wearing of poppies in November....

Mostly, I wear my poppy to remember my grandfather who fought in WWI at the age of 15 (he lied about his age in order to serve in the war). He drank poisonous water in Germany, got crabs in Egypt (not from hooker sex), and ate part of a horse knee in France. He rode mules and spent time in horrible horrible trenches...But he didn't talk much about his war experiences...in the early 70's, someone broke into their house and stole his medals and his war photos (and all the coins he collected during the war). He was a wonderful man and the only thing I regret is that my husband didn't get to meet him.

There is not a day that goes by that I don't think of him and how horrible that war must have been for him...however, in November I wear a poppy to honour him and all the friends he lost during the war...he always used to quote In Flander's Field and taught me the importance of Remembrance Day. I consider this to be a very valid reason to wear a poppy - and if someone has a problem with that, then they just don't get it.

Thank you. I'm starting to understand that Ahnimus is frustrated by the lack of care given to people in nursing homes and I think he's equating that with people that wear poppies not doing enough to help them. I don't see it that way, but I can understand why he does.

My experiences with Remembrance Day are similar. Much of what I have learned has been from my family, grandparents, great grandparents sharing with me the horrible things that happened in their generation. If not for them sharing these things with me and the significance of things like the poppies I'd never had read books, watched movies, learned more about what a terrible thing war is and would never have spent my life opposing war wherever I could. We learn so much from our forefathers. The people that came before us. I'm very grateful to them for what they learned and what they taught. When I wear a poppy all those things are behind my reason, all those things and so much more.

It's awful that your grandfather had his medals and keepsakes stolen. I am lucky to still have some of the things my grandfather collected during his time in New Guinea and the pacific in WW2.

baraka

Ahnimus wrote:

Great, but remember isn't really worth a dime if you never do anything with the memory. My problem was that people don't contribute enough, there are people suffering, people that we supposedly respect by wearing these poppies. We say we remember them and we respect them, but we allow them to rot away. Did you know that in Ontario the average senior citizen gets a shower every 10 days? They are really in a sad state of affairs and for the most part can't help themselves. So it's great that we remember them and all, but are we gonna help them? That's sort of my point in this thread.

I feel you Ahnimus, being part of raising money for both our vets here and various local charities, I'm often frustrated by how little (when I say little, I mean nothing) folks contribute that are in a position to do so. But I have no control over them, so I have to let it go. I recommend getting involved, donating your time, inspiring folks. For every person that frustrates me, I'm blown away by the generosity of another. You will also find you can accomplish things you didn't think you could otherwise. I was given the task of putting together a basket for auction. I first had to raise the money then creatively put this basket together. I raised the money and with the help of an arts & crafts store, I got my basket together. Turned out pretty good and raise twice what it was worth. So, perhaps, get involved. You might surprise yourself.

As far as the poppies, like Jeanie said, it is tradition & tribute and allows folks to pay respects,nothing wrong with that at all. It's all part of the charity process as well and there are other channels as well.

Derrick

I know not everyone will agree with my opinion here, but I only wear a poppy when my country is not at war. As a citizen of a country that is occupying another country and actively perpetuating war, I don't feel I have the right to wear that prestigious badge.

halszka123

I agree with Ahnimus.
In my country we don't have any charities for veterans (even our soldiers are in Iraq), but it's similar to other charities (specially very popular in Poland annual action for sick children). Every year they give signs to wear and almost all people do it. I think it's very selfish to wear it in that one day. Just like saying: look at me, I'm trendy! If U want to give something, not everybody has to know about it. For me it's a kind of snobbishness. What a big deal! U once a year give a coin for sb? U r really great!

I must say - sometimes I give some money, sometimes I don't. But I never wear such of this things (how did U call it? Poppies?)

vedderfan10

They are representative of the poppies that grow in Flanders' Field, nice big red poppy...

And we (in Canada) wear them for more than just one day. People (like me) start wearing them around the middle of October. Certainly, I don't know of anyone who looks down on someone who doesn't wear a poppy. Personal choice, personal preference.