Poppies
Ahnimus
Posts: 10,560
I'm thinking this social phenomena of wearing poppies to "honor" veteran's is really a selfish act. The other day, I was in Tim Horton's and there was a Veteran's donation box full of poppies, I donated $1, but I didn't take a poppy.
Over the next day almost everyone I saw was wearing one, in effect to say "I support veterans", "I donated to veterans", "I am a good person". Back at Tim Horton's all the poppy pins were gone and I donated some more money, like $0.56, whatever my change was.
Then I got to wondering. Will these clans of poppy wearing do-gooders think less of me for not wearing one? What would they think if they knew that I donated but that I didn't wear a poppy? What is the real significance of the poppy symbolism? Does wearing this symbol really bennefit veterans? Or is it a way of patting yourself on the back? Showing off your gratitude and generosity?
Over the next day almost everyone I saw was wearing one, in effect to say "I support veterans", "I donated to veterans", "I am a good person". Back at Tim Horton's all the poppy pins were gone and I donated some more money, like $0.56, whatever my change was.
Then I got to wondering. Will these clans of poppy wearing do-gooders think less of me for not wearing one? What would they think if they knew that I donated but that I didn't wear a poppy? What is the real significance of the poppy symbolism? Does wearing this symbol really bennefit veterans? Or is it a way of patting yourself on the back? Showing off your gratitude and generosity?
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
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So, that's about $0.35 on average donated for each poppy distributed.
Stacey says the poppies are free and I'm willing to bet that much of the poppies taken are taken without a donation.
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I donate for Remembrance Day, usually more than the price of the poppy and I wear them too. Not to glorify war, not to make myself feel better, I wear it out of respect. AND so that veterans and their families know that I appreciate the sacrifices they made in their lives and the impact that has had on my life.
I also buy an ANZAC Day badge every year and attend the re-union of my Grandad's unit with all my family. There's a lot to be learned from supporting veterans and their families.
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In 1915, Major John McCrae, brigade-surgeon, First Brigade Canadian Forces Artillery, was working in a dressing station on the front line to the north of Ieper, Belgium, when he wrote In Flanders Fields:
In Flanders fields the poppies blow
Between the crosses, row on row
That mark our place; and in the sky
The larks, still bravely singing, fly
Scarce heard amid the guns below.
We are the dead. Short days ago
We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
Loved and were loved, and now we lie
In Flanders fields.
Take up our quarrel with the foe;
To you, from failing hands, we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.
In 1918 Moira Michael, an American, wrote a poem in reply, We shall keep the faith, in which she promised to wear a poppy 'in honour of our dead' and so began the tradition of wearing a poppy in remembrance.
i was born in australia and recently moved to the US. remembrance day to me is when on the 11th hour of the 11th day of the 11th month, i would stop whatever i was doing and pause in silence for one minute, to remember the sacrifice of those men and women who have died or suffered in wars and conflicts and all those who have served during the past 100 years.
i visited the tomb of the unknown soldier a few years ago at the australian war memorial on remembrance day. there were poppies everywhere. i do not think that the majority of people that wear them do so 'to pat themselves on the back as you mentioned.' i genuinely believe that australians, are very much appreciative of the sacrafices those men and women made for us and wear them with pride and respect for the ones who will never come home.
visiting the tomb of the unknown solider was a really moving experience.
We will never know who this Australian was. Yet he has always been among those we have honoured. We know that he was one of the 45,000 Australians who died on the Western Front, one of the 416,000 Australians who volunteered for service in World War I . . . and one of the 100,000 Australians who have died in wars this century. He is all of them. And he is one of us.
sorry for the big post. but it's already remembrance day in australia. i miss home today. more than usual.
Why do I need random veterans to see me wearing a poppy? Does this not say "I feel for you, but I'm too busy to talk to you." I'm not saying this is true in all cases, but certainly, in my mind, there is not true altruism, in the sense that the giver has nothing to receive.
Hundreds of thousands of people wear poppies, which, as suggested, is a "good thing", like recycling or helping a neighbour in need, these "good things" are usually done to feel good about being a "good person" and are selfish at their core.
I've actually gone to their homes, spent time with them, brought them gifts, donated to their cause and yet, I don't usually wear a poppy. The symbol has no tangible quality to it and worse, takes from the coffers of the Legion. Perhaps I'm simply cursed with seeing through the fun and games and wanting to cut to the chase, to impact the future in a real tangible way. McCrae, as I know, performed a service, by motivating the selfish to lend a helping hand knowing they will receive recognition for their "Good" deeds.
Lots of people don't wear poppies - and it really isn't a big deal. Most people are busy with their own lives and don't have time to analyze why someone isn't wearing one. Whatever. If you want to wear one, wear one - if you don't, then don't...
(sorry - Britain and Australia both also wear poppies)
Argumentum ad Antiquitatem
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
Good argument. I can see advertisement as a real tangible bennefit to wearing a poppy. Hopefully, those that are influenced by this advertising are motivated to do more than just wear the advertisement themselves. I found the numbers from the Legion dissappointing, although they seem enthuastic about it, in previous years the campaign contributions only totalled $50,000, meaning total contributions, in addition to costs, were less than the total cost of distributing the poppies.
Well, a smart charity knows how to budget such things. Sometimes (not the case for what I'm involved with), one has to purchase the pin or whatever, the proceeds going to charity. We just had an auction and raffle last week and raised a hell of a lot of money. Mostly rich folks showing off, but what do we care if brings in a lot of money for the various causes.
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
Sometimes rich people make me sick. I donate roughly $500/year to various charities and not once have I ever received any kind of recognition for doing so and even in cases of the legion where I don't take the 15 cent poppy. I'm not a rich guy, I live in the slums, avoiding people throwing glass bottles at each other in a drunken stupor. It's like, some rich people will donate $1,000 to a charity, but spend $14,000 on windows for their home, $8,000 on new tiles, $10,000 on bathroom fixtures and $5,000 having the value of their home appraised.
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Heh, I guess that's cool, as long as someone cleaned up all that garbage. Hopefully it affected people in a postive, meaningful and prolonged way, and not just a "hey that's cool, by the way have you heard the new album by Deathklok?"
Well, it was the end of a horrible war, so yes, I think it affected them. Everyone picked up the poppies and saved them.
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Who says I don't? Who says that other people don't?
Buy a poppy and wear it, buy a poppy and don't wear it, don't buy a poppy at all. People do what they can when they can. I have no problem with what I have done with regard to veterans AND it's really none of my concern what other people do. What I'm not doing is bragging about what I have done and then giving shit to everyone else for not doing it like me. As far as I'm aware Rememberance Day isn't really about us anyway.
I would just like to point out that the symbol of the poppy has a very real tangible quality for some. If you're not one of them fine.
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I'm not giving anyone shit. I discussing the efficacy and purpose of rememberance day poppies. It's a debate, and I have to commend Baraka for being the only one to actually address the thread in a meaningful way. She didn't read emotionally into what I was saying and then rebuttal with personal attacks, but actually provided a valid argument to the worth of wearing a poppy. Your last statement sought to make a valid argument but never actually pointed out what the tangible quality of the poppy symbol is. It simply made a presupposition that there is in-fact a tangible quality to the poppy symbol.
You opened the thread with:
Then continued on in that vein. The impression I got from your posts was that the way you're doing it is the right way and the way everyone else is doing it is the wrong way. I chose to ignore that you started the thread on the offensive and simply stated my view. Baraka articulated a point that is probably so obvious to those that do wear the poppies that they didn't bother mentioning it. ( no offense Barak, it was a good point. Just I kinda viewed it as a given so didn't bother.
You've continued using language throughout the thread to encite people, talking up your way of doing things and belittling when others do it different. It's subtle but it's there. Yeah, maybe it's interpretational and was not your intention to be personal, but I don't think I'm the only person that picked up on it. And by praising Baraka now you are being dismissive of what others have had to say and seemingly belittling people's contribution for not being what you expect. All I'm saying is, what you have done is great, how other people interpret and participate is great also.
The poppies are symbolic and traditional. They are easily recognized by those who do know and a reminder. They're interesting enough, particularly in numbers, to get the attention of those who don't know, potentially expanding the message. I posted you the song Green Fields of France. It includes the poppies in the lyrics. My understanding has always been that the poppies grew up in the fields of France where all the fallen lay. It was adopted by the people of the time as a beautiful reminder of peace and how beauty can come from ugly things. When people need to make sense of things, they often use beauty to "chase away" the ugliness. And symbols help with the grieving process. I also think that the poppies symbolize unity. Something that people need to have when trying to make sense of senseless things. I'm glad they use poppies. I truly appreciate the symbolism of the poppies. I actually prefer the poppy to the Anzac Day badge, although this last year the new slouch hat badge was pretty cool.
Anyway, that's my 2c for the day.
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Appeal to the majority.
Appeal to emotion.
Appeal to tradition.
You would have saved a lot of energy just saying those three things. I would have recognized them instantly for what they are.
Great, but remember isn't really worth a dime if you never do anything with the memory. My problem was that people don't contribute enough, there are people suffering, people that we supposedly respect by wearing these poppies. We say we remember them and we respect them, but we allow them to rot away. Did you know that in Ontario the average senior citizen gets a shower every 10 days? They are really in a sad state of affairs and for the most part can't help themselves. So it's great that we remember them and all, but are we gonna help them? That's sort of my point in this thread.
On a bit of a different note, I had the chance to actually go to the ceremony here in Ottawa today and it was breathtaking. I was here last year as well, but had to miss it because I was extremely ill, so I couldn't wait to go this year. The sight of soooooo many people, too many to even describe, congregated en masse surrounding the War Monument, almost all wearing poppies, all paying their respects and joining in the singing of "Oh Canada" and taking a "moment of silence", actually left me speechless. The beautiful children's choir, all the veterens lined up by the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier, all very beautiful. But the most touching moment for me was taking half an hour just to get up to the monument to lay my poppy on the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier. It was a very moving commemoration and memorial service, one I hope never to miss again as long as I have the fortune to be living in the capital. There's hope for us Canadians yet!
2005: Kitchener/Hamilton/Toronto
2006: Toronto 1 & 2
2008: Hartford/EV Toronto 1 & 2
2009: Toronto/Philadelphia 3 & 4
2010: Buffalo
2011: Montreal/Toronto 1 & 2/Hamilton
2013: London/Buffalo/Vancouver/Seattle
2016: Toronto 1 & 2
2022: Hamilton/Toronto
2023: EV Seattle 1&2
Mostly, I wear my poppy to remember my grandfather who fought in WWI at the age of 15 (he lied about his age in order to serve in the war). He drank poisonous water in Germany, got crabs in Egypt (not from hooker sex), and ate part of a horse knee in France. He rode mules and spent time in horrible horrible trenches...But he didn't talk much about his war experiences...in the early 70's, someone broke into their house and stole his medals and his war photos (and all the coins he collected during the war). He was a wonderful man and the only thing I regret is that my husband didn't get to meet him.
There is not a day that goes by that I don't think of him and how horrible that war must have been for him...however, in November I wear a poppy to honour him and all the friends he lost during the war...he always used to quote In Flander's Field and taught me the importance of Remembrance Day. I consider this to be a very valid reason to wear a poppy - and if someone has a problem with that, then they just don't get it.
Sounds like a nice ceremony!
I've seen first hand how these people live. Respect and Thanks don't really mean that much to me.
My great grandfather died in war. My uncle was in the navy, my other uncle was a marine. But it doesn't give me any special knowledge of the value of poppies. Seeing veterans and widows of soldiers suffering in nursing homes might.
I also had a great-aunt who served in WWII, and while my grandfather died suddenly at the age of 90 and did not need to go into a care facility, she was not as fortunate. My husband and I (and her son) spent YEARS trying to find a decent enough place for her to live. She was no longer physically able to live on her own (at age 88)...we eventually found a top-of-line facility in White Rock. Her son told us that as power of attorney, he wanted to give us $30,000 of her money when she eventually passed because we were the only other family members to take care of her rather than leech off her. We told him "no" because that money needed to be spent on her care at this fantastic facility. And that's what happened. The DVA maximum funding didn't cover the whole cost of the facility, so we all decided the money would be put to better use taking care of her needs. And she lived another 2 1/2 years -- she didn't die alone, and she wasn't lonely. There were so many veterans in that place so she had a lot of folks to talk to.
I work in the health care system in BC and I see how the cuts are made to care homes and care facilities in our province and how the elderly are suffering needlessly. I used to volunteer at a seniors care home and as a kid, our church choir used to "tour" the local facilities and sing for the old folks (many WWI vets)...so yes I am quite comfortable wearing a poppy to honour these people.
So please, do not be so smug about what you do. Smugness is not a good quality. Don't presume that others do not live up to your example...
I am not a hero and I do not need accolades for any of this. the people who are important in my life know about this, and that's all the acknowledgment I need...
That's important only if you're trying to get a point across and you want to make change, then it makes sense to appeal to as many people as possible. Lot of really great things happen because people stick to their unpopular views, and a lot of really amazing things that only appealed to minorities have now become popular with the majority. It's all in the marketing!
This is an emotional issue. And I'd say it was because those that have participated do care about Remembrance Day and what it stands for. WHO it stands for.
Seems to me that tradition only continues if it has appeal.
You could have saved me a lot of energy by simply writing that last paragraph!
See? Now it's making sense to me.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
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I was lucky enough to work at Prince Henry's hospital across the road from the Shrine many years ago, and I would walk over to it in my lunch break many days and climb the stairs to the balcony and look out over the view.
It's an amazing building, with an amazing story, dedicated to an amazing group of people, built by an amazing community. It really is so much more than just a shrine, it's a testament to people uniting.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift