A question of spirits/souls

deadnothingbetter

soulsinging wrote:

nevermind. glad you dig your dad and all.

ok

gue_barium

deadnothingbetter wrote:

then i guess you mean to say, like for example, the people who've had these types of "connections" were the one's seeking?

Both.

genie

deadnothingbetter wrote:

i'm not even talking about jesus.

you seem to have some kind of dark experiences in the past with church or something.... cause you always sneak it in when it's completely irrelevant.

Yep, Soulsinging is a dark kinda guy, he is a shadow behind everyone of us.

I think it's kind of good that you like your dad. I think Soulsinging is trying to say that although your dad is cool, he is still a human. I can imagine in my mind what you mean when you say about your dad, and yes, your dad is a good, knowlegble person who likes to bring out good in people.

genie

Ahnimus wrote:

What is you reason for your belief in spirits and/or souls?

What evidence supports your belief?

What is the logical steps taken to this conclusion?

Every now and again i get the feeling that there is an Angel who looks after me. Because sometimes i do silly things and end up putting myself in danger.

I don't believe in it, and i don't have evidence, but when i avoid a messy situation by doing absolutely nothing, i always seem to think that someone has taken care of me.

deadnothingbetter

genie wrote:

Yep, Soulsinging is a dark kinda guy, he is a shadow behind everyone of us.

I think it's kind of good that you like your dad. I think Soulsinging is trying to say that although your dad is cool, he is still a human. I can imagine in my mind what you mean when you say about your dad, and yes, your dad is a good, knowlegble person who likes to bring out good in people.

well, i did say my dad gets on my nerves sometimes... and that he's got his share of mistakes.

i'm kinda holding off a bit though..... cause he was kinda getting to me. i have a slightly short temper.... which i'm working on.

genie

deadnothingbetter wrote:

well, i did say my dad gets on my nerves sometimes... and that he's got his share of mistakes.

i'm kinda holding off a bit though..... cause he was kinda getting to me. i have a slightly short temper.... which i'm working on.

Everyone gets annoyed with their parents sometimes...but they are the sort of people who will help in a difficult time ( well that's how my dad is )

Recently i've spent my weekend with an asshole of a person in a country
i've never been before and who's language i didn't know. Upon my return to London i didn't think about anyone but my dad, and how good communication between us usually is. Sure me and my dad had rare big awful arguments, but we both help each other, because if we didn't have each other there would be no one else there to help, or advise

Ahnimus

gue_barium wrote:

What would science be without a spoken and written language?
How would a determinist describe "making love?"
If the spoken-written language is only a science founded in determinism, does 'no' sometimes mean 'yes'?
If a brilliant individual illuminated a new idea to you, could that individual be considered a "brilliant soul"?

Where would culture be without language?

We'd be macaque monkeys dude.

Ahnimus

nurka wrote:

well there is a 21 gram diffrence of life right before death, not that it proves anything but something to ponder over, as i do believe we have souls.

Could be air from the lungs or any number of things that change after death.

Ahnimus

The general idea I'm getting is this:

People believe in spirits and/or souls because of a binding of representations, typically of sensory and ideological nature, usually promoted by cultural symbolism.

For example, vector (14, 2, 38) represents a phenomenal experience "oneness" and is it's binding to vector (8, 15, 25), concept spirituality, is upregulated by it's cultural symbolism.

That's just a metaphorical example of how such a representational coherency might occur within the neuronal structure. Just like Pavlov's Dog, the bell and the meat are intrinsicly linked by upregulation of synapses according to Hebb's rule.

Ahnimus

I mean, you experienced a phenomenal experience, that was inexplainable with your knowledge, and you were presented with the idea that it is indicative of spirituality and barring any other hypotheses and the implicit link between "spirituality" and "feel good" the paradigm lives.

Jeanie

sponger wrote:

Assuming that we do have souls, I don't see how that suddenly means there is a god. It just means we have some kind of life force inside of us that we have yet to understand. The idea of some kind of superior life force that has dominion over all life forces is a whole other concept.

I agree. I can say that I have "experienced" the power of a soul, felt the life force in a person, and again when it was gone, but I've yet to "experience" a sense of GOD. Not very scientific and I'll be the first to eat my hat if I'm wrong but if there is a GOD I don't believe that it is a Superior Force that has dominion over us all. And I do think that souls and GOD are seperate concepts.

Ahnimus

Jeanie wrote:

I agree. I can say that I have "experienced" the power of a soul, felt the life force in a person, and again when it was gone, but I've yet to "experience" a sense of GOD. Not very scientific and I'll be the first to eat my hat if I'm wrong but if there is a GOD I don't believe that it is a Superior Force that has dominion over us all. And I do think that souls and GOD are seperate concepts.

Interesting. Yet, you feel that your experience has weight, whereas the experience of another, may not?

Jeanie

genie wrote:

wonderful words Jeanie, i specifically took those couple of sentences of your text so that they can stand out.

Thanks love.

Just the way I feel. I did know that she would live on inside me when she died, long before she actually did die. But since she has passed away, there have been days and situations when I have felt her presence in me. Known what she would say. Wondered at the timing of some things. Even considered that she is bringing things into my life that I need. Perhaps this is again just learned behaviour, or wishful thinking, but there have also been dreams in which we have had conversations about current situations that she was not privy to so again, perhaps it is my mind predicting what she would have to say on the situation based on all I know of her, but I prefer to think that it is just her, living on in me. I believe we carry our dead with us. That they are able to influence our current situation and our future even though physically they are no longer in our presence. Their words, their love, their views and opinions still shape us after they are no longer able to have actual physical input into our lives. It is no longer an external relationship but an internal one.

Jeanie

gue_barium wrote:

There are no levels in spirituality. In spirituality those who seek are those who find...

Exactly gue! I completely agree.

I guess I have always wondered though why some people seek and others do not. It's an interesting conundrum.

Jeanie

Ahnimus wrote:

The general idea I'm getting is this:

People believe in spirits and/or souls because of a binding of representations, typically of sensory and ideological nature, usually promoted by cultural symbolism.

For example, vector (14, 2, 38) represents a phenomenal experience "oneness" and is it's binding to vector (8, 15, 25), concept spirituality, is upregulated by it's cultural symbolism.

That's just a metaphorical example of how such a representational coherency might occur within the neuronal structure. Just like Pavlov's Dog, the bell and the meat are intrinsicly linked by upregulation of synapses according to Hebb's rule.

I'm willing to concur that perhaps it is just Pavlovian learned behaviour Ahnimus. However given the emotional nature of the connections we make, I find that a little too clinical. It may be that this can all be scientifically explained however because emotional connection is involved, the science offers no comfort and certainly isn't the first thing that comes to mind when one experiences connection. Maybe that's because the science is relatively new and the "spiritual" explanation has been a learned behaviour for much longer?

Jeanie

Ahnimus wrote:

Interesting. Yet, you feel that your experience has weight, whereas the experience of another, may not?

Not at all.

I'm simply saying that I agree. That this is what I see, feel, think.

I'm well aware that others do not share this view or experience and that's ok by me. We are all different.

I don't know why I have a view that is different from others, or they from me. But certainly this is the case.

I realize that many people take great comfort from GOD and that they completely believe in his existence. Just as there are people that do not believe in the existence of GOD and that are able to find the answers they seek from science. I probably sit somewhere in the middle. But we are all entitled to our views and I would not presume to consider other people's views on this without merit.

FinsburyParkCarrots

Ahnimus wrote:

The general idea I'm getting is this:

People believe in spirits and/or souls because of a binding of representations, typically of sensory and ideological nature, usually promoted by cultural symbolism.

For example, vector (14, 2, 38) represents a phenomenal experience "oneness" and is it's binding to vector (8, 15, 25), concept spirituality, is upregulated by it's cultural symbolism.

That's just a metaphorical example of how such a representational coherency might occur within the neuronal structure. Just like Pavlov's Dog, the bell and the meat are intrinsicly linked by upregulation of synapses according to Hebb's rule.

Given my doctorate level experience in research, and my extensive philosophical training, I can confidently tell you that this is complete drivel. Just stop pretending. It's painful. Really. All assertions, unsubstantiated references to other people's rhetorical vectors and a few namedrops.

Byrnzie

Ahnimus wrote:

What is you reason for your belief in spirits and/or souls?

What evidence supports your belief?

What is the logical steps taken to this conclusion?

I don't believe that the rational, logical side of people is all there is to us. I think there's a lot more in heaven and earth than in your philosophy young Horatio!
Sure, our rationality counts for a large part of our make-up, but I don't believe it accounts for everything.
Civilizations which lasted for 5000 years or more existed with a day to day belief in, and engagement with, shamanistic, and mystical practices. From the ancient Egyptians, to the Celts, the Australian Aborigines, to the South American civilizations. I think it would be unwise to simply write them all off. Our way of thinking and of percieving the world is a relatively new one. I think we have a lot to learn from our ancient ancestors regarding such things as 'soul', and 'spirit' e.t.c.

Ahnimus

FinsburyParkCarrots wrote:

Given my doctorate level experience in research, and my extensive philosophical training, I can confidently tell you that this is complete drivel. Just stop pretending. It's painful. Really. All assertions, unsubstantiated references to other people's rhetorical vectors and a few namedrops.

The vector examples were a reference to vector coding in neural networks. Assuming they aren't represented by local coding.

Do you even know what Pavlov's Dog is? Or who Donald Hebb was? Or what Hebb's Rule is? Do you know anything about upregulation of synapses? Long-Term Potentiation by NDMA channels?

You are the charlatan it seems.

Ahnimus

Byrnzie wrote:

I don't believe that the rational, logical side of people is all there is to us. I think there's a lot more in heaven and earth than in your philosophy young Horatio!
Sure, our rationality counts for a large part of our make-up, but I don't believe it accounts for everything.
Civilizations which lasted for 5000 years or more existed with a day to day belief in, and engagement with, shamanistic, and mystical practices. From the ancient Egyptians, to the Celts, the Australian Aborigines, to the South American civilizations. I think it would be unwise to simply write them all off. Our way of thinking and of percieving the world is a relatively new one. I think we have a lot to learn from our ancient ancestors regarding such things as 'soul', and 'spirit' e.t.c.

So you give much weight to introspection?

I think it's trumped by neural plasticity and how things a implicitly associated in such way that our brains can be made to believe anything through habituation. There is so much mysteria in our culture that it's pretty well guaranteed the average brain will believe something irrational.

Introspection and Emotional intelligence differ in conscious accessibility and temporal response. You can't consciously access the method or variables that go into introspective conclusions, the conclusions are taken primarily on faith. While the exact same information might be available to well-thought logic, the conclusions may or may not be the same. Given that you can't quantify your introspection, I would give more weight to the latter.