Huh? I just did. I simply "imagined" it based on the properties of light, not on the properties of color, since your questions serves up a contradiction between seeing and invisible colors.
Your question is no different than "think of a color that is not visible" (visible is inherent to the concept of color). Or "think a thought that is not a thought" (thought is inherent to thinking). All it proves is that the mind cannot violate its own principles.
You are just talking out of your ass here FFG. This thought experiment is widely used in the discussion of consciousness and free-will.
Hehe...then it must be valid.
But I guess you've never really thought about it or read about it.
Hehe...are you suggesting I am able to freely reason about your question Ahnimus?
The relevency is you are agreeing that the act of learning exists when the two variables come into play--learning/learning-potential. And at base, both are needed together eliminating a fallacy of "origination" or "cause" with one or the other.
There are still causes though and you've identified them.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
The brain causes consciousness. This much is apparent. Denying this would be absurd and an absolute denial of reality.
When this question of free-will is asked of a priest, the priest says that mentally retarded people actually choose to be mentally retarded. This is how they rationalize mental retardation with free-will. It's absolutely absurd, and any other such irrationalization is equally as absurd.
Saying it doesn't make it so. It makes it your perception of reality. It's clear you have a preconceived idea of how it is, and I fully accept it.
However, to assume it's realistic is still an assumption.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
The rest your probably going to have to actually do some reading about and critical thinking.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Ahnimus, catefrances, I'd like to know if either one of you has ascertained first cause, here? Do you, Ahnimus, know the body is responsible for consciousness? And catefrances, do you know the mind in it's corporeal container is responsible for consciousness? Do either of you know absolutely that it's not consciousness that is responsible for the body and the mind?
Do either of you feel it's possible that the body/mind/consciousness exist at once, together, simultaneously, without one coming "first"?
i belive it is a symbiotic relationship. the mind can not exist without the body.however the body can exist without a mind in my opinion. and the body can certainly exist without a brain. we know this.
but no angelica i do not know for certain. just as i do not know that i will wake up tomorrow. i see the body as a machine. an inert machine if i do not tell it to do things. or if it has nothing to do outside the basic functions.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Saying it doesn't make it so. It makes it your perception of reality. It's clear you have a preconceived idea of how it is, and I fully accept it.
However, to assume it's realistic is still an assumption.
That's utter absurdity. How do you explain mental retardation, schizophrenia, pervasive development disorder, autism? Is it all what the consciousness wants to be? That is absolutely absurd.
You really don't trust anything besides your intuition?
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
i belive it is a symbiotic relationship. the mind can not exist without the body.however the body can exist without a mind in my opinion. and the body can certainly exist without a brain. we know this.
but no angelica i do not know for certain. just as i do not know that i will wake up tomorrow. i see the body as a machine. an inert machine if i do not tell it to do things. or if it has nothing to do outside the basic functions.
What is 'I' and what is telling the body?
If I dig out your brain are you going to be able to tell your body anythign? absolutely not, so the 'I' is your brain and is a part of your body.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
i belive it is a symbiotic relationship. the mind can not exist without the body.however the body can exist without a mind in my opinion. and the body can certainly exist without a brain. we know this.
but no angelica i do not know for certain. just as i do not know that i will wake up tomorrow. i see the body as a machine. an inert machine if i do not tell it to do things. or if it has nothing to do outside the basic functions.
Fair enough. Thanks for your answer. You obviously are very realistic about what you are saying.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
That's utter absurdity. How do you explain mental retardation, schizophrenia, pervasive development disorder, autism? Is it all what the consciousness wants to be? That is absolutely absurd.
You really don't trust anything besides your intuition?
I'm not coming close to attempting to explain mental retardation, autism, etc.
I am addressing your adamant assertion of one view, at the rejection of others. I know you can give logical statements, or "interpretations" that "prove" the physical level creates consciousness. But those arguments are like the argument for how objective criteria are the "originator" of learning. They are conclusions and outcomes based on how we think in terms of cause and affect. These are assumptive conclusions that ask the objective world to conform to how we think, rather than being based on our perceiving what simply "Is".
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
The rest your probably going to have to actually do some reading about and critical thinking.
how is it megalomanical ryan? what i feel. how i react. the decisions i make. the way in which i express myself. they are all mine uniquely. just as yours are. my experience is not flawed, though some may say some of my decisions and actions are or have been. there's a difference.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
what i feel. how i react. the decisions i make. the way in which i express myself. they are all mine uniquely. just as yours are. my experience is not flawed, though some may say some of my decisions and actions are or have been. there's a difference.
Very nice.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
There are still causes though and you've identified them.
I've always acknowledged causes and determinants. What I don't validate or support are false, illusory or non-applicable determinants that I recognize--ones that distort the truth. Like the causes you refer to here, that are outside of the context of the discussion you and I were having on knowledge.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Imagine this. In order for me to know what I think, or to know how I act, I must be self-aware. This is what we call consciousness.
But, 'I' am not my consciousness. 'I' am what 'I' am conscious of. 'I' am in no way my awareness of what 'I' am, but rather 'I' am what 'I' am aware of.
I'm not coming close to attempting to explain mental retardation, autism, etc.
I am addressing your adamant assertion of one view, at the rejection of others. I know you can give logical statements, or "interpretations" that "prove" the physical level creates consciousness. But those arguments are like the argument for how objective criteria are the "originator" of learning. They are conclusions and outcomes based on how we think in terms of cause and affect. These are assumptive conclusions that ask the objective world to conform to how we think, rather than being based on our perceiving what simply "Is".
Mental retardation simply IS. Your view does nothing to explain it. Explaining is identifying the causality that causes something. The alternative of causality is irrational, unreasonable and absurd. Because you can never know anything.
I do know and you would if you chose to accept reality.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
how is it megalomanical ryan? what i feel. how i react. the decisions i make. the way in which i express myself. they are all mine uniquely. just as yours are. my experience is not flawed, though some may say some of my decisions and actions are or have been. there's a difference.
Your experiences are flawed but you choose to ignore all evidence of it. You are only fixated on your personal experience which gives the illusion that consciousness is more than simply awareness. But you have no way of proving this and all evidence (E.g. mental retardation) is against your belief.
If you want to truly understand 'you' then you need to look at other people as well. There is nothing unique about you that allows for your consciousness to exist in some fantasy world while a retard can't even learn to read. That is megalomaniacal.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Your experiences are flawed but you choose to ignore all evidence of it. You are only fixated on your personal experience which gives the illusion that consciousness is more than simply awareness. But you have no way of proving this and all evidence (E.g. mental retardation) is against your belief.
If you want to truly understand 'you' then you need to look at other people as well. There is nothing unique about you that allows for your consciousness to exist in some fantasy world while a retard can't even learn to read. That is megalomaniacal.
i disagree. how can something i experience be flawed? how do you come to this conclusion ryan? i do not choose to ignore all evidence of it. i just see no evidence of it. and if i see no evidence of ti how can i prove or disprove it.
and where have i said that i think consciousness is something more than awareness. you are making assumptions without any facts being in evidence.
i do look at other people. that is how i know what i know about myself. and how i know where i fit into this world. and why i choose to distance myself from that world as much as i can. what is unique about me is all that has gone into the making of me. no one has experienced life the same way as me. no one has experienced life the same way as you have ryan.
megalomania is a delusion. i am under no delusions. nor do i want to be all powerful. i simply want to be just me.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Mental retardation simply IS. Your view does nothing to explain it. Explaining is identifying the causality that causes something. The alternative of causality is irrational, unreasonable and absurd. Because you can never know anything.
I do know and you would if you chose to accept reality.
I understand that we use linear thought and the principles of cause/effect as a tool to develop theories and ideas. Then we must use those theories for the practical applications they were intended for. If we instead come to think those theories ARE life and Truth, we continue our unawakened, unactualized human practice of allowing our brain to use us as a tool, rather than us using our brain as a tool. When we look at the map and think it's the same as the actual journey, we are distorting our own awareness.
"The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift."
- Albert Einstein
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
i disagree. how can something i experience be flawed? how do you come to this conclusion ryan? i do not choose to ignore all evidence of it. i just see no evidence of it. and if i see no evidence of ti how can i prove or disprove it.
I linked you something on visual awareness. I mean, optical illusions, and so on. There was a massive experiment done that produced a full-length DVD with recordings of the actual experiments and this shit is ground-breaking. You can buy the DVD for like $10,000 USD only. It's meant for research.
I can't tell you what it is right off the top of my head. But I can assure you that our awareness is deeply impaired. You have a blind spot in your retina, a spot in your visual field that you cannot see. You fill it in sub-consciously. Change-blindness is an effect where a fairly large change occurs in a picture and a person does not notice it right away. It requires that a blank frame be briefly flashed in-between the original frame and the modified frame. For whatever reason, as long as that frame is in there, a person typically won't notice the change, even if they are looking for it. Things are not always as they seem, you most likely have a dominant eye. One of your eyes makes up the greater portion of what you see. You can test this by holding a finger up with your arm outstretched, align your finger with a corner of the ceiling and look through each eye with the other one closed. You will see your finger shift in one image, but remain pretty much static in the other eye, that eye is the dominant eye. You can test your blind spot by holding your finger about a foot in-front of you with the tip centered on your pupil and just move your finger side-to-side and your finger tip should disappear. There is an in-depth scientific explanation for almost everything that happens in the visual system right up to the point that it becomes conscious. We know how to alter someone's consciousness and experience and we know what effect we will get.
Visual awareness aside, we have many many other ways of affecting the consciousness. It's very delicate. In zombie hand syndrome a person suffers damage to their anterior cingulate sulcus (near Brodmann's 24) in one side of their brain and this causes them to lose their 'free-will' over the opposite side of their body. So their body still behaves normally, but they don't feel like they are in control of it. Their hand will grab something and they have no idea why. The anterior cingulate sulcus is right near the corpus callosum the matter that connects the two hemispheres. If the corpus callosum is cut then a person effectively has two consciousness and two personalities, each involving the opposite side of the body. Exceptions are mouth and eyes and some other things like that, that are controlled entirely by one side.
Anyway, there is a whole lot of stuff like that, more than you can imagine. Our understanding of the brain is not complete, but it's not primitive either. If you really doubt it, you can always try inserting an electrode in your anterior cingulate sulcus and stimulate it yourself. If your going to do that go for the anterior hypothalamus, it's the pleasure area.
and where have i said that i think consciousness is something more than awareness. you are making assumptions without any facts being in evidence.
i do look at other people. that is how i know what i know about myself. and how i know where i fit into this world. and why i choose to distance myself from that world as much as i can. what is unique about me is all that has gone into the making of me. no one has experienced life the same way as me. no one has experienced life the same way as you have ryan.
megalomania is a delusion. i am under no delusions. nor do i want to be all powerful. i simply want to be just me.
I see, so you just don't like reality, so you deny it?
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
I see, so you just don't like reality, so you deny it?
no. who said i didnt like reality. what i don't like is other people and their collective and individual bullshit. and i don't deny it. i acknowledge it and take steps to distance myself from it.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Imagine this. In order for me to know what I think, or to know how I act, I must be self-aware. This is what we call consciousness.
But, 'I' am not my consciousness. 'I' am what 'I' am conscious of. 'I' am in no way my awareness of what 'I' am, but rather 'I' am what 'I' am aware of.
ou should read the Path of the middle way, The buddha figured this out thousands of years ago,,,,,
no. who said i didnt like reality. what i don't like is other people and their collective and individual bullshit. and i don't deny it. i acknowledge it and take steps to distance myself from it.
Like I said, if you want to try it yourself, you can easily alter your consciousness or terminate it temporarily. I bet you terminate your consciousness every night when you go to sleep. I don't see why you are so apprehensive to the science of the human mind.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Like I said, if you want to try it yourself, you can easily alter your consciousness or terminate it temporarily. I bet you terminate your consciousness every night when you go to sleep. I don't see why you are so apprehensive to the science of the human mind.
because it disances him for the "self" he has always know. If this self is some weird brain abnormality, then he isn't really him. Hard to describe, but thats why he is apprehensive.....
because it disances him for the "self" he has always know. If this self is some weird brain abnormality, then he isn't really him. Hard to describe, but thats why he is apprehensive.....
sorry to butt in
"she"
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
ou should read the Path of the middle way, The buddha figured this out thousands of years ago,,,,,
I know this, many many people have figured it out. Democritus, Leucippus, Jesus Christ, etc..
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Comments
Huh? I just did. I simply "imagined" it based on the properties of light, not on the properties of color, since your questions serves up a contradiction between seeing and invisible colors.
Your question is no different than "think of a color that is not visible" (visible is inherent to the concept of color). Or "think a thought that is not a thought" (thought is inherent to thinking). All it proves is that the mind cannot violate its own principles.
Hehe...then it must be valid.
Hehe...are you suggesting I am able to freely reason about your question Ahnimus?
There are still causes though and you've identified them.
However, to assume it's realistic is still an assumption.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
That sounds awefully megalomaniacal.
Watch this video and see your experiencial flaws. At least a couple of them.
http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/view/id/78
The rest your probably going to have to actually do some reading about and critical thinking.
i belive it is a symbiotic relationship. the mind can not exist without the body.however the body can exist without a mind in my opinion. and the body can certainly exist without a brain. we know this.
but no angelica i do not know for certain. just as i do not know that i will wake up tomorrow. i see the body as a machine. an inert machine if i do not tell it to do things. or if it has nothing to do outside the basic functions.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
That's utter absurdity. How do you explain mental retardation, schizophrenia, pervasive development disorder, autism? Is it all what the consciousness wants to be? That is absolutely absurd.
You really don't trust anything besides your intuition?
What is 'I' and what is telling the body?
If I dig out your brain are you going to be able to tell your body anythign? absolutely not, so the 'I' is your brain and is a part of your body.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
I am addressing your adamant assertion of one view, at the rejection of others. I know you can give logical statements, or "interpretations" that "prove" the physical level creates consciousness. But those arguments are like the argument for how objective criteria are the "originator" of learning. They are conclusions and outcomes based on how we think in terms of cause and affect. These are assumptive conclusions that ask the objective world to conform to how we think, rather than being based on our perceiving what simply "Is".
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
i never said my brain wasn't a part of my body. all i said was a body could exist without a brain.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
how is it megalomanical ryan? what i feel. how i react. the decisions i make. the way in which i express myself. they are all mine uniquely. just as yours are. my experience is not flawed, though some may say some of my decisions and actions are or have been. there's a difference.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
i'm going with wiki article or youtube video.
j/k
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Mental retardation simply IS. Your view does nothing to explain it. Explaining is identifying the causality that causes something. The alternative of causality is irrational, unreasonable and absurd. Because you can never know anything.
I do know and you would if you chose to accept reality.
Your experiences are flawed but you choose to ignore all evidence of it. You are only fixated on your personal experience which gives the illusion that consciousness is more than simply awareness. But you have no way of proving this and all evidence (E.g. mental retardation) is against your belief.
If you want to truly understand 'you' then you need to look at other people as well. There is nothing unique about you that allows for your consciousness to exist in some fantasy world while a retard can't even learn to read. That is megalomaniacal.
i disagree. how can something i experience be flawed? how do you come to this conclusion ryan? i do not choose to ignore all evidence of it. i just see no evidence of it. and if i see no evidence of ti how can i prove or disprove it.
and where have i said that i think consciousness is something more than awareness. you are making assumptions without any facts being in evidence.
i do look at other people. that is how i know what i know about myself. and how i know where i fit into this world. and why i choose to distance myself from that world as much as i can. what is unique about me is all that has gone into the making of me. no one has experienced life the same way as me. no one has experienced life the same way as you have ryan.
megalomania is a delusion. i am under no delusions. nor do i want to be all powerful. i simply want to be just me.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
I understand that we use linear thought and the principles of cause/effect as a tool to develop theories and ideas. Then we must use those theories for the practical applications they were intended for. If we instead come to think those theories ARE life and Truth, we continue our unawakened, unactualized human practice of allowing our brain to use us as a tool, rather than us using our brain as a tool. When we look at the map and think it's the same as the actual journey, we are distorting our own awareness.
"The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift."
- Albert Einstein
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
I linked you something on visual awareness. I mean, optical illusions, and so on. There was a massive experiment done that produced a full-length DVD with recordings of the actual experiments and this shit is ground-breaking. You can buy the DVD for like $10,000 USD only. It's meant for research.
I can't tell you what it is right off the top of my head. But I can assure you that our awareness is deeply impaired. You have a blind spot in your retina, a spot in your visual field that you cannot see. You fill it in sub-consciously. Change-blindness is an effect where a fairly large change occurs in a picture and a person does not notice it right away. It requires that a blank frame be briefly flashed in-between the original frame and the modified frame. For whatever reason, as long as that frame is in there, a person typically won't notice the change, even if they are looking for it. Things are not always as they seem, you most likely have a dominant eye. One of your eyes makes up the greater portion of what you see. You can test this by holding a finger up with your arm outstretched, align your finger with a corner of the ceiling and look through each eye with the other one closed. You will see your finger shift in one image, but remain pretty much static in the other eye, that eye is the dominant eye. You can test your blind spot by holding your finger about a foot in-front of you with the tip centered on your pupil and just move your finger side-to-side and your finger tip should disappear. There is an in-depth scientific explanation for almost everything that happens in the visual system right up to the point that it becomes conscious. We know how to alter someone's consciousness and experience and we know what effect we will get.
Visual awareness aside, we have many many other ways of affecting the consciousness. It's very delicate. In zombie hand syndrome a person suffers damage to their anterior cingulate sulcus (near Brodmann's 24) in one side of their brain and this causes them to lose their 'free-will' over the opposite side of their body. So their body still behaves normally, but they don't feel like they are in control of it. Their hand will grab something and they have no idea why. The anterior cingulate sulcus is right near the corpus callosum the matter that connects the two hemispheres. If the corpus callosum is cut then a person effectively has two consciousness and two personalities, each involving the opposite side of the body. Exceptions are mouth and eyes and some other things like that, that are controlled entirely by one side.
Anyway, there is a whole lot of stuff like that, more than you can imagine. Our understanding of the brain is not complete, but it's not primitive either. If you really doubt it, you can always try inserting an electrode in your anterior cingulate sulcus and stimulate it yourself. If your going to do that go for the anterior hypothalamus, it's the pleasure area.
I see, so you just don't like reality, so you deny it?
no. who said i didnt like reality. what i don't like is other people and their collective and individual bullshit. and i don't deny it. i acknowledge it and take steps to distance myself from it.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Like I said, if you want to try it yourself, you can easily alter your consciousness or terminate it temporarily. I bet you terminate your consciousness every night when you go to sleep. I don't see why you are so apprehensive to the science of the human mind.
sorry to butt in
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Sorry its a psyc joke
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
I know this, many many people have figured it out. Democritus, Leucippus, Jesus Christ, etc..