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'I' am not consciousness

AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
edited May 2007 in A Moving Train
Imagine this. In order for me to know what I think, or to know how I act, I must be self-aware. This is what we call consciousness.

But, 'I' am not my consciousness. 'I' am what 'I' am conscious of. 'I' am in no way my awareness of what 'I' am, but rather 'I' am what 'I' am aware of.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
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  • onelongsongonelongsong Posts: 3,517
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Imagine this. In order for me to know what I think, or to know how I act, I must be self-aware. This is what we call consciousness.

    But, 'I' am not my consciousness. 'I' am what 'I' am conscious of. 'I' am in no way my awareness of what 'I' am, but rather 'I' am what 'I' am aware of.

    i agree with you. you must be unconscious when writing a majority of your posts.
  • farfromglorifiedfarfromglorified Posts: 5,696
    Ahnimus wrote:
    'I' am what 'I' am conscious of.

    Are you a tree? Are you a boat? Are you a message board?
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    farfromglorified wrote:
    Are you a tree? Are you a boat? Are you a message board?

    Not as much as I am aware of. As far as my awareness is concerned I'm a human being.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • farfromglorifiedfarfromglorified Posts: 5,696
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Not as much as I am aware of. As far as my awareness is concerned I'm a human being.

    Then how can you be aware of a tree, a boat, or a message board, if you are not these things?
  • barakabaraka Posts: 1,268
    To me a consciousness/soul is that which makes me me. The complete set of memories, with my current experience.

    But more importantly, it's that which separates me, in my mind, from everyone else. If I was just a "machine" walking around absorbing stimuli and responding to it and analyzing it, I don't think there would be much room left for the individual experience.

    A soul may or may not exist separately from physicality, but it surely is an emergent property that should not be ignored, for it is what gives us freedom and space and individuality, and a little bit of personal exploration.
    The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
    but the illusion of knowledge.
    ~Daniel Boorstin

    Only a life lived for others is worth living.
    ~Albert Einstein
  • farfromglorifiedfarfromglorified Posts: 5,696
    baraka wrote:
    If I was just a "machine" walking around absorbing stimuli and responding to it and analyzing it, I don't think there would be much room left for the individual experience.

    And that would be quite convenient for other individuals.
  • puremagicpuremagic Posts: 1,907
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Imagine this. In order for me to know what I think, or to know how I act, I must be self-aware. This is what we call consciousness.

    But, 'I' am not my consciousness. 'I' am what 'I' am conscious of. 'I' am in no way my awareness of what 'I' am, but rather 'I' am what 'I' am aware of.

    What are you, when say a person tells you, Could you please stop tapping that pencil?.

    You weren't conscious of the tapping - Nor were you aware of the tapping - Yet you were performing a physical action most likely while concentrating on a thought.

    Thus, were you in a state of nothingness or at a different level of consciousness which permitted you to be aware of a thought, but not a physical action?
    SIN EATERS--We take the moral excrement we find in this equation and we bury it down deep inside of us so that the rest of our case can stay pure. That is the job. We are morally indefensible and absolutely necessary.
  • PJPOWERPJPOWER Posts: 6,499
    Only to yourself and until you find out otherwise...........Your awareness doesn't always represent what is actually true. "You" are only what "I" am aware "you" are..........which can sometimes be more true than your own awareness. Then my awareness can change your awareness, which results in me changing you? Or are we talking about perception rather than awareness?
  • barakabaraka Posts: 1,268
    farfromglorified wrote:
    And that would be quite convenient for other individuals.

    I'm sure it would be quite uninspiring as well. I'm not 100% sure I understand your point.
    The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
    but the illusion of knowledge.
    ~Daniel Boorstin

    Only a life lived for others is worth living.
    ~Albert Einstein
  • RolandTD20KdrummerRolandTD20Kdrummer Posts: 13,066
    Ahnimus wrote:
    'I' am what 'I' am conscious of.


    makes sense to me...
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

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  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    baraka wrote:
    To me a consciousness/soul is that which makes me me. The complete set of memories, with my current experience.

    But more importantly, it's that which separates me, in my mind, from everyone else. If I was just a "machine" walking around absorbing stimuli and responding to it and analyzing it, I don't think there would be much room left for the individual experience.

    A soul may or may not exist separately from physicality, but it surely is an emergent property that should not be ignored, for it is what gives us freedom and space and individuality, and a little bit of personal exploration.

    I'm sure it can be ignored, as I don't see any evidence for a soul.

    The point is that I am not my awareness. If I am aware that I am tapping a pencil, it is not my awareness of me tapping a pencil that is tapping the pencil, but rather I am tapping the pencil independant of my awareness of it.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • barakabaraka Posts: 1,268
    Ahnimus, maybe you should first define consciousness for us in your own words, so we all know where you are 'coming from'.
    The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
    but the illusion of knowledge.
    ~Daniel Boorstin

    Only a life lived for others is worth living.
    ~Albert Einstein
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    baraka wrote:
    Ahnimus, maybe you should first define consciousness for us in your own words, so we all know where you are 'coming from'.

    Consciousness is simply awareness.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • CollinCollin Posts: 4,931
    I agree and there won't be many of us who agree, I think.
    THANK YOU, LOSTDAWG!


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  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    Collin wrote:
    I agree and there won't be many of us who agree, I think.

    Really? I thought this would be incontrovertible.

    Can anyone provide evidence that consciousness is responsible for more than awareness?
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • farfromglorifiedfarfromglorified Posts: 5,696
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Can anyone provide evidence that consciousness is responsible for more than awareness?

    Does this answer your question:

    http://pinker.wjh.harvard.edu/photos/poland_and_ukraine/images/goat.jpg
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    farfromglorified wrote:
    Does this answer your question:

    http://pinker.wjh.harvard.edu/photos/poland_and_ukraine/images/goat.jpg

    I'll take that as a no.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • farfromglorifiedfarfromglorified Posts: 5,696
    Collin wrote:
    I agree and there won't be many of us who agree, I think.

    Hehe...."agree"??? How is that possible, if consciousness is nothing other than awareness?
  • farfromglorifiedfarfromglorified Posts: 5,696
    Ahnimus wrote:
    no.

    Why not?
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    farfromglorified wrote:
    Hehe...."agree"??? How is that possible, if consciousness is nothing other than awareness?

    The processes of deliberation are sub-conscious.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    farfromglorified wrote:
    Why not?

    It's just a goat, it doesn't mean anything to me. Unless it's moses.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • farfromglorifiedfarfromglorified Posts: 5,696
    Ahnimus wrote:
    It's just a goat, it doesn't mean anything to me. Unless it's moses.

    I don't understand. Are you suggesting that you applied reason to my response and determined, despite the fact that you were completely aware of that goat, that my response was insufficient, given your question?

    I think, then, that you just answered your own question. With a little help from a goat, of course.
  • angelicaangelica Posts: 6,038
    Ahnimus wrote:
    But, 'I' am not my consciousness. 'I' am what 'I' am conscious of. 'I' am in no way my awareness of what 'I' am, but rather 'I' am what 'I' am aware of.
    I'm going to have to agree here. Because technically, the "I" of our individuality is what is called our ego, which is the tip of the iceberg of the Self. According to psychology, our ego is the part of us that interfaces with reality.

    Ahnimus wrote:
    Imagine this. In order for me to know what I think, or to know how I act, I must be self-aware. This is what we call consciousness.
    Here is where the twist comes in. There are two levels of self in psychology:
    1: the self is the ego, or the "I"; the individual
    2: the Self is the entire being of who we including the vast uncharted territory of us that is unconscious.

    The majority of the population is self-aware. A 2 percent minority is supposedly Self-aware, knowing themselves beyond their individuality.

    The Self is always aware, even when the "I" is not aware of the Self.
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • farfromglorifiedfarfromglorified Posts: 5,696
    Ahnimus wrote:
    The processes of deliberation are sub-conscious.

    Hehe...then how would Collin be aware of it?
  • barakabaraka Posts: 1,268
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Consciousness is simply awareness.

    Simply awareness? But you said this in your initial post:
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Imagine this. In order for me to know what I think, or to know how I act, I must be self-aware. This is what we call consciousness.

    Awareness and self-awareness are not exactly the same thing.
    The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
    but the illusion of knowledge.
    ~Daniel Boorstin

    Only a life lived for others is worth living.
    ~Albert Einstein
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    baraka wrote:
    Simply awareness? But you said this in your initial post:

    Awareness and self-awareness are not exactly the same thing.

    They are both awareness. Whether I am aware of the clouds in the sky or the thorn in my side. It's still awareness. If I am aware of my decisions, self-awareness, it's still awareness, but it just happens to be my awareness of my decisions.

    If I were not self-aware, then how could I function as a human being? I am neccissarily self-aware, but I am not my self-awareness.

    Dictionary.com
    the state of being conscious; awareness of one's own existence, sensations, thoughts, surroundings, etc.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • angelicaangelica Posts: 6,038
    Ahnimus wrote:
    They are both awareness. Whether I am aware of the clouds in the sky or the thorn in my side. It's still awareness. If I am aware of my decisions, self-awareness, it's still awareness, but it just happens to be my awareness of my decisions.

    If I were not self-aware, then how could I function as a human being? I am neccissarily self-aware, but I am not my self-awareness.

    Dictionary.com
    the state of being conscious; awareness of one's own existence, sensations, thoughts, surroundings, etc.
    I'd like clarification. Do you acknowledge that a goat is conscious?
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    farfromglorified wrote:
    Hehe...then how would Collin be aware of it?

    Collin is aware of certain thoughts that he needs to be aware of. He needs to be aware that he has made a deliberation. It doesn't mean that he needs to be aware of all the processes of deliberation.

    For example, your visual sense is not all it appears to be. You are aware of a complete image in-front of you, but in-fact that image is not a complete image of what is in-front of you, it is only what your brain determined was in-front of you. Everyone has only 3 photoreceptors for red, green and blue, although some are color-blind, they lack a photoreceptor for red. All these photoreceptors do is interpret light of different wave lengths and they don't do a very good job of it. Additionally you have a blind spot in your retina that gets filled-in by higher-level brain processes.

    Your awareness of what you see is not exactly what your retina sees and is not exactly what exists in reality. Thankfully, it's pretty damn close. But we are not aware of this blind-spot, nor are we aware that the image gets flipped around and items are seperated from 'ground' sub-consciously, we only need to be aware of the ultimate results. Being aware of these results allows other parts of our brain to make interpretations and decisions based on what our visual system makes us aware of.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    angelica wrote:
    I'd like clarification. Do you acknowledge that a goat is conscious?
    Yes
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • angelicaangelica Posts: 6,038
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Yes
    Thank-you.
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
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