Comparative Religion: Godmen

cory

"Who gives a fuck?" - Albert Einstein

Ahnimus

baraka wrote:

I'm sure that is true, as this thread is looooooooong. All I ask is for you to refrain from calling those that do not subscribe to your theories ignorant or on drugs or insane, etc. You present valid points, but those types of comments cancel out any point you were trying to make. Keep in mind, although there are good arguments for your stance, it is NOT accepted as fact in the scientific community. Scientists hold all kind of opinions and theories about things, but opinions do not hold water in science, only those things that have been proven by the scientific method. In other words, you can't parade hard determinism around as scientific fact, then call others ignorant for not believing in it.

Anyway, I was really looking forward to discussing causality with you, specifically how it is defined in the papers for which I provided links.

In this thread, I've actually just been disproving Free-will as at all possible. That's not a matter of scientific inquiry, it's a matter of critical philosophical analysis. Since it is impossible, it's accurately insane to believe in such dogmatism.

I just had a meeting at work where we discussed the attitudes that workmates and clients will have at different times and it was encouraged that we don't allow such attitudes to infect us. People will have different moods, regulated by external stimuli and internal chemical balances. It's an unavoidable fate that most people will become irritated, aggressive or offended at times. I refuse to allow your offense to affect my opinion. I will not condone the absurd belief in free-will. If you take issue with my language, then that is something you have to work on.

angelica

Ahnimus wrote:

And I've never quoted Einstein as saying there is no God.

What I've said is that Einstein did not believe in the Christian God, he believed in Spinoza's God which is quite different. A little bit of reading on the dude says as much.

“I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings” - Albert Einstein

Einstein himself specifically says it makes him angry when people use his words to support views that say there is no God.

Ahnimus

angelica wrote:

"The fanatical athiests are like slaves who are still feeling the weight of their chains which they have thrown off after hard struggle. They are creatures who - in their grudge against traditional religion as the 'opium of the masses' - cannot hear the music of the spheres" ~ Albert Einstein

"I walked to the beach this morning, as I look out over the ocean, I fell to my knees in awe of the magnificence of creation and in the formation of sea foam accumulating on the shore, I saw the face of the divine creator, Charles Darwin."

Let's not forget that Einstein was a human being. He is also referring to "fanatical" atheists. Clearly a well thought out statement. Since there is nothing wrong with being an atheist, but one who claims that there is no possibility of a designer would be fanatical. Many "atheists" claim there is evidence of a bottom-up designer, but don't automatically assume this is an omnipotent God. Rather it just may be as simple as an automaton. At that scale we run into the problem of infinite regression. But in all honest, it doesn't fucking matter. It has no effect on our lives, absolutely zero!

This is what is so great about philosophy, it evaluates the worth and truthfullness of truth statements. To argue that their is a bottom-up designer that has no concern for the fates of humans, is like spitting in the wind. It has no worth to our lives, it means nothing to speculate as such. It will only come back and hit you in the face, because it's speculation, and thus could be wrong, and making harsh truth claims about it is going to get you in hot water with atheists.

With that said, the best theories as pertaining to what is actually important, mention nothing of God or randomness.

Ahnimus

angelica wrote:

Einstein himself specifically says it makes him angry when people use his words to support views that say there is no God.

Did I not just say that? Are you intentionally being ignorant?

I've just quoted Einstein as saying that he does not believe in a personal God, he 'believed' in Spinoza's God. It's quite plainly written. What the heck is your fascination with Einstein anyway? It's not like the guy was never wrong.

Ahnimus

cory wrote:

"Who gives a fuck?" - Albert Einstein

“I don't know, I don't care, and it doesn't make any difference!” - Albert Einstein

angelica

Ahnimus wrote:

Did I not just say that? Are you intentionally being ignorant?

I've just quoted Einstein as saying that he does not believe in a personal God, he 'believed' in Spinoza's God. It's quite plainly written. What the heck is your fascination with Einstein anyway? It's not like the guy was never wrong.

Actually...no, you didn't just say that. You segued into the Spinoza bit, which is an entirely different topic.

Earlier you said:
"Einstein was upset that people quoted him as evidence of the Christian God."

It's interesting that I don't see a quote for that. And there is one where he himself says how angry he gets when people use his words to support the view that God does not exist.

Ahnimus

angelica wrote:

Actually...no, you didn't just say that. You segued into the Spinoza bit, which is an entirely different topic.

Earlier you said:
"Einstein was upset that people quoted him as evidence of the Christian God."

It's interesting that I don't see a quote for that. And there is one where he himself says how angry he gets when people use his words to support the view that God does not exist.

Right... but no one is quoting him for that. That is a false inference Angelica.

I don't quote Einstein as 'evidence' for anything but his own beliefs.

“Everyone should be respected as an individual, but no one idolized.” - Albert Einstein

angelica

Ahnimus wrote:

He is also referring to "fanatical" atheists.

He refers to athiests who in their struggle to throw off traditional religion cannot hear the music of the spheres. Interesting that he used the word "spheres".

angelica

"What separates me from most so-called athiests is a feeling of utter humility toward the unattainable secrets of the harmony of the cosmos." ~ Albert Einstein

gue_barium

angelica wrote:

"What separates me from most so-called athiests is a feeling of utter humility toward the unattainable secrets of the harmony of the cosmos." ~ Albert Einstein

"unattainable" is the key word there, angelica.

Abookamongstthemany

gue_barium wrote:

"unattainable" is the key word there, angelica.

what's so 'key' about it?

gue_barium

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

what's so 'key' about it?

It is key in deference to angelica because she tends to ignore that fact in her ramblings of universal truth.

Ahnimus

angelica wrote:

"What separates me from most so-called athiests is a feeling of utter humility toward the unattainable secrets of the harmony of the cosmos." ~ Albert Einstein

Right, Einstein was an atheist to any anthropomorphized God. So he used the term 'fanatical' which is key to the prior statement. He certainly wouldn't be referring to himself. Now, you can accept that we both agree, Einstein did not believe in an anthropomorphized God, and he was not a 'fanatical' atheist, but saw problem with people who claim knowledge of the 'unattainable'. Finally we should both agree that Einstein was not God himself and is therefor subject to the enormity of human error. Einstein repeatedly makes direct claims to error.

"He who has never made a mistake, has never tried something new." - Albert Einstein.

Abookamongstthemany

gue_barium wrote:

It is key in deference to angelica because she tends to ignore that fact in her ramblings of universal truth.

unattainable

does that word mean that something doesn't exist so we should ignore it?
does it mean you shouldn't bother trying to better understand these secrets and learn what we can of them?


things that are unattainable now, won't always be...if we stop changing then we stop existing.

angelica

gue_barium wrote:

"unattainable" is the key word there, angelica.

Einstein is pointing to "utter humility" for the unattainable secrets of the cosmos as the difference between himself and most so-called athiests. It appears as though you've missed the point.

"What separates me from most so-called athiests is a feeling of utter humility toward the unattainable secrets of the harmony of the cosmos."

Ahnimus

Just one more quote from the big E

"Considered logically this concept is not identical with the totality of sense impressions referred to; but it is an arbitrary creation of the human (or animal) mind."

Unattainable means that it's impossible to know. It may be considered nihilism to the extent that the knowledge actually matters. In this case though, it doesn't matter and making knowledge claims is foolish.

gue_barium

angelica wrote:

Einstein is pointing to "utter humility" for the unattainable secrets of the cosmos as the difference between himself and most so-called athiests. It appears as though you've missed the point.

"What separates me from most so-called athiests is a feeling of utter humility toward the unattainable secrets of the harmony of the cosmos."

I didn't miss anything. I've read enough of your posts to know that "utter humility" for the "unattainable secrets of the cosmos" is something you don't seem to practice, yourself.

angelica

"To sense that behind anything that can be experienced, there is something that our minds cannot grasp, whose beauty and sublimity reaches us indirectly: this is religiousness. In this sense, and in this sense only, I am a devoutly religous man". ~ Albert Einstein


It's clear that Einstein speaks to what our minds cannot grasp and that we know through the beauty and sublimity we experience indirectly. He refers to it as behind anything that can be experienced.

Ahnimus

angelica wrote:

"To sense that behind anything that can be experienced, there is something that our minds cannot grasp, whose beauty and sublimity reaches us indirectly: this is religiousness. In this sense, and in this sense only, I am a devoutly religous man". ~ Albert Einstein


It's clear that Einstein speaks to what our minds cannot grasp and that we know through the beauty and sublimity we experience indirectly. He refers to it as behind anything that can be experienced.

"Considered logically this concept is not identical with the totality of sense impressions referred to; but it is an arbitrary creation of the human (or animal) mind."