Comparative Religion: Godmen

Ahnimus

angelica wrote:

Where's the link?

http://www.theconnection.org/shows/2004/10/20041014_b_main.asp

angelica

gue_barium wrote:

I love you, Angelica.

I love you, too, gue....albeit sometimes begrudgingly ....but beneath the nonsense, it's love no less.

Ahnimus

Dan Dennett's Freedom Evolves - a dangerous idea

http://video.indiana.edu:8080/ramgen/ip/iucast/lectures/PATTEN06.rm

Dilbert
http://www.philosophyblog.com.au/userimages/user-3298303_1168217284.jpg

angelica

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

"Every creative act involves...a new innocence of perception, liberated from the cataract of accepted belief."
- Arthur Koestler

"In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists"
- Hoffa


'Stop thinking in terms of limitations and start thinking in terms of possibilities'
- Terry Josephson

'The people who are crazy enough to think they can change the world are the ones who do'
- Steve Jobs

'The illiterate of the 21st century will not be those who cannot read and write, but those who cannot learn, unlearn, and relearn'.
- Alvin Toffler

'The analysis of data will not by itself produce new ideas'
- Edward de Bono

'It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the ones most responsive to change'
- Charles Darwin

'The world is moving so fast these days that the man who says it can't be done is generally interrupted by someone doing it'
- Harry Emerson Fosdick

'I am always doing that which I can not do, in order that I may learn how to do it."
- Pablo Picasso

'Slowness to change usually means fear of the new.'
- Philip Crosby

Thinking is more interesting than knowing, but less interesting than looking. "
- Goethe

The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing"
- Socrates

You are not thinking. You are merely being logical."- Neils Bohr

We shall not cease from exploration, and the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time."
- T.S. Eliot

"The future is simply infinite possibility waiting to happen. What it waits on is human imagination to crystallise its possibility"
- Leland Kaiser

"A dreamer is one who can only find his way by moonlight and his punishment is that he sees the dawn before the rest of the world"
- Oscar Wilde

Few people have the imagination for reality"
- Goethe

Many of the things you can count, don't count. Many of the things you can't count, really count"
- Albert Einstein

You cannot teach a man anything; you can only help him find it within himself."
- Galileo Galilei

angelica

Ahnimus wrote:

I don't believe in free-will so I am not in conflict.

Ahnimus wrote:

I'm still waiting for someone to reconcile free-will with this conflict...

It seems like you're at least in conflict as to whether or not you have a conflict.

angelica

Abook, this one is funny!

'The world is moving so fast these days that the man who says it can't be done is generally interrupted by someone doing it'
- Harry Emerson Fosdick

angelica

Or this one...wow.

"Many of the things you can count, don't count. Many of the things you can't count, really count"
- Albert Einstein

Abookamongstthemany

angelica wrote:

Abook, this one is funny!

'The world is moving so fast these days that the man who says it can't be done is generally interrupted by someone doing it'
- Harry Emerson Fosdick

Haha... I loved that one too!

angelica

Ahnimus wrote:

Actually, I just listened to an interview with the film maker, as well as Fred Wolf, Michael Shermer and some callers. The film maker admits...

Who are you referring to as "the film maker"? The guy introduced at the starting--Mark Vicente?

Ahnimus

Ok, stop with the quotes and actually address some of the issues.

My conflict is with my view of reality (determinism) and prevailing view (indeterminism).

Determinism is logically sound.

Indeterminism is not for the reasons stated multiple times.

I gave multiple reasons why the film "What the BLEEP do we know?" is factually inaccurate and why the Quantum Mind theory is realistically incorrect.

Now, Abook, I see a major conflict with you and Angelica's views. For example, you post indeterministic theories such as Dr. Masaru Emoto's Miracle Water, then you post deterministic theories such as Dr. Milgram and Dr. Zimbardo's human behavior experiments. Angelica does the same thing repeatedly, most people do. This is the conflict of dualism, anything that can be described logically and represented mathmatically, predicted, controlled and falsifiable is deterministic. Then there happens to be things which are not strictly scrutinized and it becomes a matter of personal faith, that is the indeterminism. Every claim of indeterminism in history has been demonstratably deterministic when it's understood.

So we have this conflict of what is known and what you want to be. You find things which I would be highly skeptical about and you invest your personal faith in it and declare it truth. Then when it's challenged as being actual truth, you become nihilists, claiming that no actual truth can be known that is not just personal truth.

Both of you must either believe in all Gods or pick and choose which matters of faith you believe in. All for personal comfort. So, in terms of rational skepticism, your points are invalid. In terms of political/social policy your bases are as bias as a Catholic Priest.

Ahnimus

angelica wrote:

Who are you referring to as "the film maker"? The guy introduced at the starting--Mark Vicente?

The guy who is addressed as the film maker. As I recall there were two film makers. But I think only one is present in that conversation.

Abookamongstthemany

Ahnimus wrote:

Ok, stop with the quotes and actually address some of the issues.

My conflict is with my view of reality (determinism) and prevailing view (indeterminism).

Determinism is logically sound.

Indeterminism is not for the reasons stated multiple times.

I gave multiple reasons why the film "What the BLEEP do we know?" is factually inaccurate and why the Quantum Mind theory is realistically incorrect.

Now, Abook, I see a major conflict with you and Angelica's views. For example, you post indeterministic theories such as Dr. Masaru Emoto's Miracle Water, then you post deterministic theories such as Dr. Milgram and Dr. Zimbardo's human behavior experiments. Angelica does the same thing repeatedly, most people do. This is the conflict of dualism, anything that can be described logically and represented mathmatically, predicted, controlled and falsifiable is deterministic. Then there happens to be things which are not strictly scrutinized and it becomes a matter of personal faith, that is the indeterminism. Every claim of indeterminism in history has been demonstratably deterministic when it's understood.

So we have this conflict of what is known and what you want to be. You find things which I would be highly skeptical about and you invest your personal faith in it and declare it truth. Then when it's challenged as being actual truth, you become nihilists, claiming that no actual truth can be known that is not just personal truth.

Both of you must either believe in all Gods or pick and choose which matters of faith you believe in. All for personal comfort. So, in terms of rational skepticism, your points are invalid. In terms of political/social policy your bases are as bias as a Catholic Priest.

I don't believe the human behavior experiments prove determinism. I think those results are an effect of conditioning. But you can look at anything and make it into what you want to get from it.

I don't care if you believe anything that I post and I never present it as the holy truth. I post it coming from my view to share with whomever. You are the one who goes apeshit when people post things that don't coincide with your holy truth. You give yourself permission to belittle and insult my view because you don't share it. I leave room for any and everyone to share their views and have them considered, you close yourself off to opposing views and somehow think mocking them will be productive and make your truth stronger. When you resort to this time and time again...it only makes you look weak to me.

angelica

Ahnimus wrote:

So we have this conflict of what is known and what you want to be.

You project conflicts onto other people, and then when it's pointed out, you say you have no conflict. Abook and I are comfortable and peaceful with our perceptions and our worldviews. And when we are not, we own it, and find our ways to resolve and integrate it. You are the one who keeps bringing up your problems and conflicts with our worldviews. Good luck on resolving those.

Ahnimus

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

I don't believe the human behavior experiments prove determinism. I think those results are an effect of conditioning. But you can look at anything and make it into what you want to get from it.

I don't care if you believe anything that I post and I never present it as the holy truth. I post it coming from my view to share with whomever. You are the one who goes apeshit when people post things that don't coincide with your holy truth. You give yourself permission to belittle and insult my view because you don't share it. I leave room for any and everyone to share their views and have them considered, you close yourself off to opposing views and somehow think mocking them will be productive and make your truth stronger. When you resort to this time and time again...it only makes you look weak to me.

That is not the case. You are offended by my comments because they belittle your view, not you. You take it personally.

Look, we are debating things like public policy on this board, we need to establish the best base to work from. It is determinism, hands down. That is all I am stating. Dr. Masaru Emoto's Miracle Water is not a view, it's a lie.

There is a major difference between having a view about the facts and being deluded in your own fanciful desires and the embrace of other people's lies.

angelica

Ahnimus wrote:

That is not the case. You are offended by my comments because they belittle your view, not you. You take it personally.

Look, we are debating things like public policy on this board, we need to establish the best base to work from. It is determinism, hands down. That is all I am stating. Dr. Masaru Emoto's Miracle Water is not a view, it's a lie.

There is a major difference between having a view about the facts and being deluded in your own fanciful desires and the embrace of other people's lies.

You belittle people all the time, and we all know it.

Abook and I are intelligent women who are willing to learn. What you are doing is coming in and degrading where we are coming from. That is an imbalanced and irresponsible position, and when you do so, you are doing the opposite of teaching or departing knowledge. You contribute to the closing down of learning and communication--contributing to the creation of learning paralysis.

Ahnimus

angelica wrote:

You project conflicts onto other people, and then when it's pointed out, you say you have no conflict. Abook and I are comfortable and peaceful with our perceptions and our worldviews. And when we are not, we own it, and find our ways to resolve and integrate it. You are the one who keeps bringing up your problems and conflicts with our worldviews. Good luck on resolving those.

I am not projecting conflict. When I see teenage boys serving life without parole in US prisons. When I hear people calling for the mutilation, torture or psychological abuse of another human being. Then I stand up for what I know. When I see people like you and Abook proliferating lies and misdirection, then I stand up for what I know. Conflict is constantly projected on my views. Every day of my life I hear reference to indeterminist thinking in every aspect of society. It's not as simple as you believe what you want and I believe what I want. It affects all of us; what you think.

"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence." - Albert Einstein

Ahnimus

angelica wrote:

You belittle people all the time, and we all know it.

Abook and I are intelligent women who are willing to learn. What you are doing is coming in and degrading where we are coming from. That is an imbalanced and irresponsible position, and when you do so, you are doing the opposite of teaching or departing knowledge. You contribute to the closing down of learning and communication--contributing to the creation of learning paralysis.

Ah, so you are so enlightened to know how the mind works, but unable to circumvent the fallacies of your own mind?

I am not directly causing you to stop learning. That is your reaction to my theories and evidence.

angelica

Ahnimus wrote:

I am not projecting conflict. When I see teenage boys serving life without parole in US prisons. When I hear people calling for the mutilation, torture or psychological abuse of another human being. Then I stand up for what I know. When I see people like you and Abook proliferating lies and misdirection, then I stand up for what I know. Conflict is constantly projected on my views. Every day of my life I hear reference to indeterminist thinking in every aspect of society. It's not as simple as you believe what you want and I believe what I want. It affects all of us; what you think.

"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence." - Albert Einstein

You own your conflicts with how you perceive the world. If you feel out of harmony and that all is evil and bad, including the views of others, deal with it.

Abook and I take responsibility for what we think and do and for the consequences of our beliefs and actions. We're well aware that we either contribute to problems or we contribute to solutions, and we accept the consequences of our choices, learning as we go along. You choose a different worldview, (albeit much of that choice seems to be beyond your conscious awareness and therefore unconscious) and you apparently are living with it.

If you truly believed in determinism, you would know that everything is happening for an exact reason at all times, including all the diverse opinions around you. You continually want to change that, and you enter into the "trying to change fate" mode, which can be done. However you must harmonize with determinism, and ACCEPTANCE of what IS, first. Otherwise, you continue to show your own disharmony with your own belief.

angelica

Ahnimus wrote:

Ah, so you are so enlightened to know how the mind works, but unable to circumvent the fallacies of your own mind?

I am not directly causing you to stop learning. That is your reaction to my theories and evidence.

Everytime you attempt to undermine another view, which seems to be your usual MO when you do not have the resources to be constructive, rather than teach by building awareness, you undermine your own self and your "teaching".

I learn all the time. Exactly in harmony with what is and independent of you. I have been influenced by any truths you have asserted. I accept and seek truth all the time. What I am saying is when you grind to a halt and have nothing constructive to bring to the table, the grinding is happening within you.

Ahnimus

angelica wrote:

You own your conflicts with how you perceive the world. If you feel out of harmony and that all is evil and bad, including the views of others, deal with it.

Uh, no Angelica. As I've stated repeatedly there is no evil. Everything is just as it is.

Abook and I take responsibility for what we think and do and for the consequences of our beliefs and actions. We're well aware that we either contribute to problems or we contribute to solutions, and we accept the consequences of our choices, learning as we go along. You choose a different worldview, (albeit much of that choice seems to be beyond your conscious awareness and therefore unconscious) and you apparently are living with it.

No you don't take responsibility. When your views are challenged you become philosophically perverse and never actually acknowledge the points that are made. How can you say that any of my view 'seems' to be beyond my awareness, you have no way of obtaining such knowledge.

If you truly believed in determinism, you would know that everything is happening for an exact reason at all times, including all the diverse opinions around you. You continually want to change that, and you enter into the "trying to change fate" mode, which can be done. However you must harmonize with determinism, and ACCEPTANCE of what IS, first. Otherwise, you continue to show your own disharmony with your own belief.

Yes, 'reason' as in cause, no purpose. I am not trying to change fate, I am living towards my fate. Fate cannot be changed by definition of the term.

Now are you ever going to address the points made?